Open 840 - Guardians of the Fortress [Game Over]

[VP Baltar]

Tanner, you've presented many plausible reasons why I am town and very few (as far as I can tell), reasons why imaginality is town. I understand that one time two years ago I had an OK scum game against you when you had zero knowledge of my play, but damn -- I didn't know I twisted you up like that lol.

[Tanner]

without exaggeration, still the hardest i have been snown in a mafia game by a single person.

but that's not my problem here. my problem is that i am awfully bad ta hammer votes like this. and whenever it was a clear cut decision of "x is scum", that was wrong. and then there's also the fact that scum deliberately chose me, with these reads, to be the ic. and i'm supposed to just accept it?

[VP Baltar]

Well I consider that an honor.

As far as the IC thing, I probably would have lied as scum when you asked me if I would have ICed you.

[VP Baltar]

I know this means nothing right now, but if I was scum in the game, I actually would feel bad for snowing you like this. Like if I actually faked a bunch of things about not knowing the setup, that's some devious shit. Not saying I wouldn't do it if I thought of it, but odds are high that I would not think of that.

The reason I was trying to get you to hammer this game first is that I know your reads are right, this is an easy call, and it would take all the pressure off you. You're so stressed about this call it is making me stressed!

[Tanner]

less than four hours to new year's, i'm wandering through this heavy ass fog, half the light streets aren't working, and i'm rereading a year and a half old mafia game.

I actually would feel bad for snowing you like this.

ain't snowing me if i hammer you!

also, master town strats - have such a mental breakdown that scum straight up confesses ahahaha

don't do that tho

[VP Baltar]

ain't snowing me if i hammer you!

This would actually ruin your 2022 because you know I'm not scum here.

[Tanner]

i just reread d4 of 2157 for god knows which time and now my head hurts again

[VP Baltar]

you're gonna have that game memorized before I draw scum again.

[VP Baltar]

This game is our chance at Jungle Oligarchy redemption when we kicked scum ass and didn't get the trophy.

I know I'm totally AtE'ing here, but I want a damn win with you! Feel like I lose so many games that are just in my grasp to win and this is an easy one. Going to the Wall is a crapshoot because those dudes aren't even playing the game. Hammer for glory for me please!

[Tanner]

how should i feel about the fact that you said scum!you here would go with imaginality and a yeetbait, ic imaginality and kill the yeetbait, considering your first choice was an imaginality/you/darby gate?

pedit: would you seriously stoop to SUCH ate if you were scum here? i know you gotta say yes but like goddamn

[VP Baltar]

how should i feel about the fact that you said scum!you here would go with imaginality and a yeetbait, ic imaginality and kill the yeetbait, considering your first choice was an imaginality/you/darby gate?

pedit: would you seriously stoop to SUCH ate if you were scum here? i know you gotta say yes but like goddamn

That was my first choice...but it was also my idea to take you with me from the start and combining those two ideas was a smart town move on my part without knowing what imaginality's alignment was going to be.

as for your second question, I actually don't think I would AtE like that as scum. I mean, saying that means nothing, but it's a bit manipulative if it's a lie and feels slightly over a line to me unless I had a serious rivalry with a player.

[VP Baltar]

If I AtE'd like that as a lie, that could be hurtful, and I don't play mafia to hurt people's feelings.

[Tanner]

i don't actually see anything wrong with that, but then again, i have been called scum-irl before so

[VP Baltar]

haha, IDK. it really depends on the player, but if I have a long and positive history with someone in games, I try to play pretty honorably as scum. Doesn't necessarily help my win rate, but I never have to feel bad after a game.

Some people are fine going hard, like Pooky, and that's fun too because I know he's not going to have his feelings hurt if we go to absolute warfare. Of course, that's often more spam screaming than dirty tricks, so....

[Tanner]

i started rereading a game where you were town in yelo and for a second i was like "aha, here he's doing vca, and in my game he hasn't analyzed a single fuckin vote count" before i remembered

[VP Baltar]

i started rereading a game where you were town in yelo and for a second i was like "aha, here he's doing vca, and in my game he hasn't analyzed a single fuckin vote count" before i remembered

got me there!

[implosion]

VP I know it is partially an act regardless of alignment but I feel like you aren't giving credit to how difficult Gate really is here. Like, I said it before and I'll say it again, I very much do not envy Tanner's position.

I can like try to do some associative analysis but I've also spent literally a third of this game complaining about people doing BS associative analysis so :\

[implosion]

I so bad want to provide commentary haha.

why didn't you provide commentary and what did you want to say?

I was going to say at that point that Luke and Pav should cross vote with ari deciding, but that actually would have been pointless because Luke could have self hammered.

I don't think we took into account how fucking crazy the voting in the Keep is.

The reason I didn't say anything at that point is because I didn't want to influence the outcome of the game, or give someone an excuse if something shady went down. I figured town gets the most information when the action plays out purely with the players involved at that point.

Also my being me obligates me to point out that this is wrong about Keep. First off there can be a cross vote with the third person deciding, it's just that the two people crossvoting need to both self-vote instead of both voting for the other. Second there are a couple valid ways to resolve Keep with town getting explicit 2/3 odds of winning - it's just that Luke resolved it "wrong" in that if he were town his method would have been wrong. One method is that the IC picks a player they think is towniest and demands that they be voted for. Another is that the IC picks a player they think is scummiest and demand they vote for one of the other two. There's also the option of the three people in Keep choosing to collectively decide on a player using either of these methods, but probably the latter by using "pseudovotes" and when someone is "pseudohammered" they have to vote for someone else. The only problem with this last method is that it runs into the issues I outlined in this old-ass thread, but those problems exist in regular eLo as well.

[VP Baltar]

I feel like you aren't giving credit to how difficult Gate really is here.

I get it, I really do. It's not fun to make the decision that everything is resting on.

That being said, what is the case for town imaginality? It requires a hell of a lot of tinfoil. That's what I'm saying is simple here. You have to believe I pulled a crazy amount of shit off this game to believe I'm scum.

Additionally, with Luke fucking up for the scum team, the stakes of this hammer are much lower. This isn't game 3/3 right now. I just really want a win and then I'm gonna go play some fortnite and chill into the new year.

[VP Baltar]

it's just that the two people crossvoting need to both self-vote instead of both voting for the other.

ah, true.

[Tanner]

i mean, i am kind of treating it as game 3/3 because i feel like wall is going to be rng-roulette

[VP Baltar]

i mean, i am kind of treating it as game 3/3 because i feel like wall is going to be rng-roulette

I'm more convinced it is not RH9 now after looking at Luke's ISO. Implosion is being kind of weird saying Wall should go first and just now playing up the dilemma here, but still probably town I guess. NQ is where my money would be at in that game.

[implosion]

I've read/skimmed Luke's d1 iso and the only things I see that are super relevant are (1) him early saying he wanted Toog in the same location as him and (2) 236 which surely must be interpretable in some way lol. He advocated for me and toog as going with him in Keep at different points so I can see that as an argument for nQ scum.

The case for imaginality town is (1) the explanations for why the swap happened as it did now that it's 1-1-1 confirmed for me seem more plausible if he's town; (2) Tanner's point about it not making a whole lot of sense to set up this 1v1 if Tanner's already biased against him (which also goes hand in hand with it being 1-1-1, i.e. scum having plenty of other options); (3) his game really hasn't been especially scummy on the whole afaict, there's just a couple things that ping me a fair amount personally but hey there were like 80 things in luke's iso that pinged me as town so .-. but point being it really doesn't feel like a slam-dunk to call his iso scum in isolation.

[implosion]

look if we want to resolve gate first that's fine. I was saying wall should go first if Tanner wants to know that I'm town because me being town is in principal very relevant information for reading Gate.

[VP Baltar]

me being town is in principal very relevant information for reading Gate.

what does our town flip tell us about the gate?