open 841: concgratulations to the winners and losers

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

this is the most recent history:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87795

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

it's a funny read if you skip the last day of me/bell/notty fighting for 50 pages

[Faker]

I will get around to it when I have time. My projects take much more out of me than real-time interactions.

I would like for you to speak more about your vote on me. I think it is bizarre that you have sat on it without being more aggressive.

[innocentvillager]

and like if you think the people who aren't

doing anything

are scummy and you think the game state is stagnant, it's kind of easy to actually cast a vote that will matter instead of vanity voting SA who isn't really even here?

it just feels like you're going through the motions rather than actually doing something that will move the game state forward.

anyways do you want to vote MWB together? you think he is mafia anyway right?

why do you need to vote him together with skitter why not just vote him yourself?

[Faker]

I'm not Pooky but I was sad to see the above; I saw that and my first instinct was to just not get in his way. I think it is very obvious contextually that Pooky is trying to sort skitter and pressure her to make strategic errors or spew in the event she is scum.

[northsidegal]

Northsidegal is also completely wrong on why Andante is town imo but I don't think it matters too much. She's town anyway at the end of the day.

I wound up hardshoving her in Happy Face after she had a mental breakdown in response to my vote on her

maybe, sure. i don't think that the interaction that you link really qualifies as "mental breakdown" but alright. maybe i've got it literally completely backwards!!!

i agree with the logic that SS as scum would be trying more to look towny and it matches my memory of playing against (and losing against) him as scum, but at the same time it feels bad to actually put someone down as town based on that reasoning. so i guess i can just continue putting the problem of reading him off

why is he listed as a tr for you then?

i predict that i will probably scumread sleepless assassin after he makes his big post

why do you feel that way?

midway still seems scummy but i'm unsatisfied voting there with such a large null pool to sort.

do you normally not vote for people until you have a read on almost everyone? i don't understand why you wouldn't at least park your vote on your current largest suspect

1) it's not actually super important where he goes. i put him above null though because even if the reasoning feels bad i still think that it makes sense
2) pattern matching to a previous game i played with sleepless, also a prediction just based on not really liking the posts he's already made and extrapolating that given more content from him it won't reverse that read.
3) shrug. it's been said about me before that i don't vote someone before i'm absolutely ready for their immediate death, whether or not that's true i couldn't say. i just don't really feel like my vote would contribute anything (especially no "pressure" or anything), so i just don't really feel like parking it somewhere.

[northsidegal]

sometimes you can tell that these kinds of players are scum because, when being pushed for elimination, they don't fight as hard as they typically do as town – i first learned about this tell when nachomamma used it in a bombshell case on myself actually, because i was getting pushed but didn't really seem to have a lot of heart in fighting it.

you're insinuating that you're one of these players who is very town as town and will fight back against shade more often as town - how do you feel about basically everyone having you in their PoE here?

so let me be clear – the idea is specifically about when being pushed and being a serious contender for elimination. i don't think that i really qualify as that right now? nobody seems to actively scumread me, as far as i remember i don't have any votes on me, it's just people don't townread me yet, which i mostly understand. perhaps i didn't elaborate enough, but they're not really the same situation.

[Faker]

I strongly believe you should pull up the checklist of behaviors you described and directly compare rather than get hung up on my wording. For example, it might help to know that I misremembered and didn't even actually vote her, but merely suggested her as a third choice.

Fundamentally this is a process debate and nothing very relevant to this game and I am willing to skip the pedantry if it is not of interest.

[northsidegal]

i predict that i will probably scumread sleepless assassin after he makes his big post

This feels like a weird thing to say. It's like you're gonna go into reading my post trying to find things wrong with it and the post hasn't even been made yet.

not really, unless you're talking about some kind of inherent bias to going into something with a specific expectation potentially tainting your view of that thing, which i think in general i'm pretty decent about avoiding.

i don't really have anything else to say to this except "that's not what i'm going to be doing" and "that isn't what i meant to imply with what i said", although i did sort of predict that someone might take that conclusion from what i said when i made that post.

I strongly believe you should pull up the checklist of behaviors you described and directly compare rather than get hung up on my wording. For example, it might help to know that I misremembered and didn't even actually vote her, but merely suggested her as a third choice.

Fundamentally this is a process debate and nothing very relevant to this game and I am willing to skip the pedantry if it is not of interest.

sure, and sorry i may not have been clear. i did basically understand the point that you were making and see the evidence that you were pointing to, it may have been a bit flippant of me to say what i said.

i don't really think that this is just a process debate. whether or not you think that andante is town regardless i would like to not be making right decisions for the wrong reasons – in other words, i'd like to be correct about my statements and the evidence that i use to justify those statements. so i take your disagreeing here pretty seriously, especially when it seems like or is said that i am "completely wrong".

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I will get around to it when I have time. My projects take much more out of me than real-time interactions.

I would like for you to speak more about your vote on me. I think it is bizarre that you have sat on it without being more aggressive.

I do not use aggression to sort players like you because I am not a moron.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and like if you think the people who aren't

doing anything

are scummy and you think the game state is stagnant, it's kind of easy to actually cast a vote that will matter instead of vanity voting SA who isn't really even here?

it just feels like you're going through the motions rather than actually doing something that will move the game state forward.

anyways do you want to vote MWB together? you think he is mafia anyway right?

why do you need to vote him together with skitter why not just vote him yourself?

I'm not 100% of the way on mwb and its possible she is baiting me in some way to push town mwb by being coy and slippery.

[innocentvillager]

oops did i force you to expose your plan before she got a chance to take the bait..? am i reading this interaction right

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Yes my fiendishly clever tiger trap is ruined now

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

it's ok though I just bought some fresh sushi grade tuna and I know she can't resist good tuna so we're all good.

[Sleepless Assassin]

North what did you mean then if I'm just reading it wrong

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

can you just drop your big post already

you can always add more shit to it later

[northsidegal]

North what did you mean then if I'm just reading it wrong

i meant exactly what i said. i predict, or perhaps it's better to say i get the feeling that after seeing your large post i will probably scumread you for it. that doesn't mean that i want to scumread you or that i'm going to be reading that post with the intention to scumread you or trying to find things wrong with it – it's possible that my prediction will be wrong.

i don't know, it was a weird thing to say and i guess i should have just probably kept the feeling to myself. but what i meant is pretty much exactly what i said.

[Sleepless Assassin]

can you just drop your big post already

you can always add more shit to it later

I guess.

1 sec

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ok doing some reading up and will try to organize this the best I can.

Some initial thoughts

-If scum coordinated their numbers I'm sure they're pretty spread out. That doesn't give us a ton of info until someone flips. It might implicate one of the double digit numbers (catboi, faker, sircakez, innocentvillager) or the 1s (Pooky, Datisi) because I could see them having someone go for it all and someone be sure not to double up. However, the third would be somewhere in the middle (skitter, midwaybear, mare) so it's hard to really say anyone is implicates. It's more that anyone inside of parenthesis is unlikely to be grouped as multiple scum if they coordinated.

-I voted Innocentvillager because he comes off nervous. Your entrance is where your Role PM is most fresh in your mind. Starting with a VT claim, then being sure to tell us it's a "serious claim haha", then showing regret at opening the thread while tired all reads like someone who is feeling way too awkward right at the start of a game.

-Datisi townreading pooky and flow for doubling numbers with a number picking meta makes sense, but only if there is scum who is aware of that meta. Something to go back to later on.

I'm slightly surprised not to see Datisi have any issue with Innocentvillager. We kind of mind melded on Iconeum after a bad entrance last game even though it took him a little bit to be sure on what he was seeing.

<- Scratch that. I see a vote now lol

You could probably lim the first three names and hit scum so remember this advanced strategy if we’re flailing EOD.

This probably hits a town power role more often than not.

- I get a similar impression to Amdante as last game. We might not end up agreeing on things but I think she's town. The fact that she gave Faker a hard time for not pressuring her despite not liking pressure reads as genuine. I think she put herself in Fakers shoes and wanted to point out the difference in thought process..

Replies

I'm on page 2 and saw he made a naked vote and dipped

I made the vote as I was going to bed then woke up to 16 pages.

also uhhh the sleepless thing "this is too much to read. see yall thursday" uhhh what?? there's like no content in that... it's not hard to skim..

It kind of is. I posted that when I woke up. Immediately jumped in the shower, shaved, got dressed, and drove to work. At that point I had about 30 minutes to do everything for an entire day that needs to be done on my phone. That includes this game, four fantasy football leagues, replying to texts, figuring out schedule things. I see 17 pages and I'm not dedicating that time here just to do a half assed skim.

Why I scum read Innocentvillager

- See above for why I placed my vote.

-His early talk is about himself. Why he picked his number and not what anyone else might have been thinking. The focus is just explaining himself where the natural town thought is "I wonder what scum did". There's a little bit of asking about people's meta picks but nothing to suggest he's attempting to read people's alignment based on it.

He seems reactionary OMGUSy. Datisi voted Innocentvillager and Innocentvillager wanted a fight but the second Datisi backs off its "maybe you're town". Then midway makes a decent point about that interaction coming off weird and Innocentvillager responds by calling midway "scumbear".

The timing of the Midway vote on page 30 felt weird. He mentions being the largest wagon and then switches from a vanity vote to a mini wagon. I know he already expressed a scum read on midway but it still seemed like weird timing

Some stuff on Faker

Faker comes off slightly awkward too but with more a sense of purpose. And the feeling he's hiding something is easily explained by the alt slip. I was almost going to scum read faker but I don't think I have anything there. I agree with Fakers number speculation but scum can dig up past games too. Basically there's a lot there early on but nothing that gives me a read.

The unvote of skitter and unexplained vote on Mare comes off weird to me too. The follow up that he thought he'd find something in Meta and that he can re-vote later if he wants to feels too calculated. And even after that follow up we know nothing about why he voted Mare.

Faker is there anyone reason you'd come off as playing too calculated of a game, that is out of game? Like a personality trait or something?

My take on some Mare/Midway/flow interactions

Flow is kind of coming off as a scum possibility to me. I'll verbalize this better if I still feel that way after reading some more.

Mare seems to be thinking similarly to me because after I thought this I started to feel the same way about midway and then Mare said they might be a team together

However, Midways post about Datisi and Innocentvillager containing one scum felt like a real attempt at solving.

So as of Page 10 I see Mare as town, midway maybe town, and flow maybe scum. If I don't get to a deeper dive into flow right away someone hold me accountable and make sure I do it shortly after this post.

I'd like to know more on why catboi gave midway a town read. I came to the same conclusion but catboi didn't explain and sounds more confident than I feel.

Flow Trap getting attention

I support this push. Basically flow is active and present but when you really break down the posts, there's nothing to show you what Flow is thinking or anything about their reads.

I don't see how Innocentvillager has Flow as town for contradicting the midway post by voting shortly after. Both are individually scummy and I can see them as partners so I'm happy to see attention here. It's interesting a couple pages later seeing flows biggest effort post in the game so far be a town case on Innocentvillager that basically says he's town for having a jokey personality.

Skitter vs Catboi

I really don't see anything here thats gonna make me want to vote either. Skitter does seem to have trouble finding anything major to suspect Catboi for, but acknowledges that in the bullet points. It's enough minor issues to justify a gut read. And Catbois reaction is reasonable. Neither of those makes them for sure town, but I actually agree with Andante that if I absolutely had to vote in this I'd vote Catboi. But there's just as good a chance it's town vs town.

Catboi what did you mean when you said skitter was speedrunning what she said to you?

This section is just for Northsidegal but everyone else is welcome to read it lol

North, we're gonna have to do some real time interaction because your reads are so far off from mine and at the time I'm typing this I have zero clue on your alignment. If it doesn't become more clear to me as I read, I'll want explanations on your reads on Catboi, Innocentvillager, midway, and Datisi.

The first bit of explanation I see on Datisi I'd you scum read his drive by town read on Andante but you admitted it was minor and said you wouldn't be able to explain it well. I'd appreciate an attempt at a deeper dive into this read. My impression on Datisi so far is that nothing stands out to scum read him. But in my other game with him I had him as obvtown for a level of transparency and genuine posting I've rarely seen anyone match. The fact that that is lacking here could mean something but that thing could just be the amount of noise and fluff here. Someone said he tries harder as scum or cares more or something but after the game I just saw him in I doubt thats true because he went all out as town.
^Reading up a little more I think I'm not far off because of his comment about this game feeling "like mud".

The non fluff posting I could find around Page 30ish

I didn't like skitter's read on Datisi, and I was also thinking that skitter wouldn't make a read like that on her buddy. So that potentially indicated Datisi as townie. But I had no reason to suspect skitter, then I would scumread that interaction between nsg and Datisi.

So if skitter were to flip town, would that change your read on North and Datisi? Do you normally make Day 1 reads bases on associatives? It seems like your entire read on Datisi is based on your skitter read being stronger than your North read.

Ironically enough, the above post makes me town read midway. It feels like wheels are turning and there's a real thought process behind those reads whether I agree with them or not. It doesn't feel faked.

Actually midway, am I misreading your datisi/north take? I see some mentions of a Datisi scum read so now I'm confused.

Datisi and North, I have a question thats gonna seem random. Have the two of you ever played a game where North was scum and Datisi was town, and if so how did that go?

[Datisi]

midnight just turned here, so happy new year!

i'm not sober enough to read that whole thing but i can ctrl+f for my name so -- hold on my neighbours are blowing up the whole street with fireworks

ok so

- it did not "take me a little bit to be sure what i was seeing", i wanted ico flipped from page 5, i was just galaxy brain fishing for associates (we saw how well that turned out)
- also i don't really scumread iv at this moment in time so if that's what you're counting as points in my favour maybe scratch that
- i could prob write three full paragraphs about self-meta and my wims as town and scum and that and this game specifically so like if you're interested in that lemme know i guess
- we have not. i think we've only played once as t/t in a recent white flag game, where nsg repped in like lateish d1 and i was fearkilled n1 so yknow

[Sleepless Assassin]

- it did not "take me a little bit to be sure what i was seeing", i wanted ico flipped from page 5, i was just galaxy brain fishing for associates (we saw how well that turned out)

Ah ok. I was looking at it at face value but I can see that.

- also i don't really scumread iv at this moment in time so if that's what you're counting as points in my favour maybe scratch that

It looked like you were at first. Am I wrong?

- i could prob write three full paragraphs about self-meta and my wims as town and scum and that and this game specifically so like if you're interested in that lemme know i guess

I'd be curious to see it but if it's a lot of work it's not worth it because self meta isn't as useful as someone else's take especially during the game.

- we have not. i think we've only played once as t/t in a recent white flag game, where nsg repped in like lateish d1 and i was fearkilled n1 so yknow

That's too bad. Well, let me take this route then. How would you expect North as scum to handle town-you?

[Something_Smart]

I need to stop lying to myself and pretending that I'm going to reread the past pages and make meaningful commentary.

[Faker]

I'm not used to playing in a position where I do not have a great holistic grasp of the game and several strong leads, and it is very uncomfortable for me to play so passively. It is not just below my standards but completely and disgustingly mediocre. To emphasize, it is very uncomfortable and unnatural for me to play this way.

I am very openly calculating and intentional in my posting when I believe I can draw something, positive or negative, from players. To borrow a phrase, I have two modes of thinking, fast and slow, with very limited in between.

If players are not slow, openly calculating, and deliberate as town, I generally consider this a flaw.

[Datisi]

okay so

at first i probably was scumreading iv, but like the big point there is that like i scumread iv every game lol. like he breathes in a scummy way. so the fact that i was scumreading him doesn't actually say anything about his alignment (or my own for that matter bc i would probably have to fake that) and like i am aware that he sounds vvvv scummy to me regardless his alignemtn so you knwo

big self meta bullshit that nobody cares about:

when i am obvtown, i am obvtown. like. that game you saw we played together, was one of my *holy shit datisi is town* games. my towngame sometimes looks like that - and general rule of thumb is that it looks like that when i have reads i have a degree of confidence in (not necessarily when they're good reads lmao) so. then there are games like this one, where... i don't have very confident reads at the start here. and like the thing is, 95% of my reads are gut, and i still don't know exactly what triggers them, so it's not like i can actually try to make the gamestate be so i get more reads -- p much all i can do is tap in the dark and poke around until my gut does get triggered by stuff.

this ability to make gutreads early-to-midgame is especially hindered if most of the game thinks i'm scum already - that is what i was talking about with skitter. those instances are *very* rare, but they happen, and i think skitter is aware of that considering she was there for one of my meltdowns like that. which is why i was like "oh skitter is trying to make me relive newbie 1992 huh" (which, fun fact, was *the game* that made me swear on never playing in a newbie game again because holy shit i am not a good example to newbies but anyway uh)

also fun fact fun fact: whenever someone was like "i played with datisi in [game] and he was obvtown there and he's not obvtown here" i was town!! every single goddamn time that happened i was town!! anyway

i don't think it is true that i "care more" as scum but i think it does appear that i care more as scum simply because i am chatting in the pt often and helping the team make plans (iv knows about this one ) but also i do try harder to maintain a thread presence. like in town games i am like "ok if i'm not getting reads rn, i'll step away and try again" and as scum i DON'T do that because i am well aware i am never going to "get reads" as scum because i already know everyone's alignments and so i never have a reason to "step off" from the game so (and no i don't try to fake stepping off from the game bc my posting schedule is so inconsistent anyway there's no way to know) -- but also as scum i am extremely paranoid and scared that i will be found out (seriously read some of my notes pts when i am scum they are a hot mess) so i kinda try harder to maintain thread presence and appear to be driving the game forward because i KNOW i can't reach the level of read purity that i have as town so i try to make it up by sheer presence and volume of posts and also being really loud and sometimes doing bullshit that makes you think "surely haha surely scum wouldn't do that"

but yeah the level of obvtowniness you saw from me in that one game we played? i (yet) cannot fake that shit as scum so

/end big self meta bullshit that nobody cares about:

i honestly have NO CLUE how nsg would be approaching me as scum because (1) i don't know what nsg's opinion is of my towngame considering we played like, very briefly and (2) i have no clue how scum!nsg operates, what she finds important, how she plans to win the game so like -- i genuinely have no idea how nsg would approach me

if that question was supposed to be "how do you plan to read nsg", the answer is sorta "wait until a bit later game, if she stops doing Really Good Analsysiy start pressuring her and go from there"

ok

this post is a drunken mess i am sorry

[Faker]

(And to be clear and directly answer your question, Sleepless, the implication is that I have a mile long record of the same exacting, deliberate, targeted interactions I have made here as town)