Datisi's Mini Normal Review, January 2022

[implosion]

Subject: Normal Queue Thread (Players and Mods)

/in to mod a mini

hello! here's a setup i'd like to run:

1x town combined rolestopper watcher
1x town informed rolestopper enabler (xxx is a town combined rolestopper watcher)
1x town ascetic friendly neighbour
1x town voyeur
6x vt

1x mafia vanilla cop
1x mafia informed (there is both a combined rolestopper watcher and a rolestopper enabler in the town; they may or may not have additional components to their role)
1x mafia watcher enabler

and my thought process behind it, so that i don't forget:

Spoiler:

the core idea of the setup was a town combined watcher [role that makes it unable to get watcher results] and a town enabler for that role. originally it was a town combined bodyguard watcher, but i figured there is a possibility that a player might not realize they shouldn't actually use the role at first, and i didn't want to be putting even more complicated informed modifiers.

i didn't really want to put in neither more strong protectives nor strong investigatives, so i opted in for an unsaveable friendly neighbour. i'm not too certain on the balance, but it felt like maybe town needed a bit extra, so i added a voyeur. if the setup is deemed too townsided, i'd axe the voyeur, and if too scumsided, maybe turn it into something like a motion detector.

[implosion]

Primary: Something_Smart
Secondary: ChaosOmega

[Datisi]

ego

[Something_Smart]

Ego. At first glance it looks extremely unlikely that the watcher gimmick will actually matter.

[Datisi]

why is that? when i was designing, i was kind of of the thought it's ~50/50 whether the watcher or the enabler dies first, and i figured the watcher enabler dying first or the watcher dying right after aren't *that* likely. but i do get tunnelled on incorrect setup specc >_>

[Something_Smart]

It's 50/50, unless the watcher claims or softs, or if the enabler softs their info. Even if the enabler does die first, the mafia watcher enabler might already be dead, or the mafia might be able to figure out the watcher from the enabler's ISO, or the watcher might end up randomly run up or NK'd before they can use their power.

And even if they avoid all that, the watcher will have one or two days to catch scum before massclaim, if they're lucky.

[Datisi]

hmm. my first thought is to maybe buff the watcher into something like a cop, so that at least they can get each day's worth of usage if they do manage to outlive their enabler. though i haven't thought it through fully yet

[ChaosOmega]

Interesting setup. My first thought is this is slightly scumsided, I like the change from watcher/watcher enabler to cop/cop enabler given that it is likely a small window they will be operating in as that role, if at all.

[Something_Smart]

hmm. my first thought is to maybe buff the watcher into something like a cop, so that at least they can get each day's worth of usage if they do manage to outlive their enabler. though i haven't thought it through fully yet

This feels like a step in the wrong direction because it's dependent on so many things out of their control.

[Datisi]

hmm. my first thought is to maybe buff the watcher into something like a cop, so that at least they can get each day's worth of usage if they do manage to outlive their enabler. though i haven't thought it through fully yet

This feels like a step in the wrong direction because it's dependent on so many things out of their control.

is there a way to make the concept of "a town role that can only be used *after* a different townie does" work without this being a drawback?

[Datisi]

i am assuming that silence means the answer is "no".

let's try... a similar concept, except make the enabler mafia? at this point i'm pretty much just trying to see what sticks.

1x town combined rolestopper vigilante
1x town gunsmith
1x town odd-night vanilla cop
1x town d1,2,3 vengeful
1x town 1-shot bodyguard
5x vt

1x mafia 1-shot doctor
1x mafia informed (there is a town combined rolestopper vigilante in the game)
1x mafia rolestopper enabler

[Something_Smart]

i am assuming that silence means the answer is "no".

it actually means "it was a difficult enough question that I thought about it and then forgot about it".

I'm not a fan of enabler gimmicks, I generally feel like they add complexity and swing without really making the setup better.

I like the rolestopper vig idea better, I think. Why do you have an informed and an enabler rather than an informed enabler and a goon?

[Datisi]

ah, sorry, i know the feeling all too well.

Why do you have an informed and an enabler rather than an informed enabler and a goon?

because mafia goons are boring. and also because i want at least some of these roles to not be a word salad. is there a mechanical reason why one is better than the other?

[Something_Smart]

I would not recommend putting a vanilla cop in your setup if your philosophy is that mafia goons are boring, is the thing.

[Datisi]

i... totally didn't forget about the fact that there's a vanilla cop there.

okay, let's say we change it into an informed enabler and a goon. how does the setup look then?

[Something_Smart]

The bodyguard feels a bit counter to the point of the setup, because scum know they can bus the enabler to disable the protective and then oops there's another one. And a one-shot bodyguard can really only accomplish much if they wait for a PR to claim and then guard them.

I think there's significant swing on whether people treat gunsmith clears as clears; obviously in the worst case, they do consider them clear and then the doctor gets checked. If they don't, which is more likely and also happens to be correct, then I don't really see where town's power comes from.

[Datisi]

i had an idea with the bodyguard... but yeah, on second thought, the scenario doesn't sound fun. axe it is.

i was under the impression that gunsmith clears are generally considered to be Very Likely clears since there's very few roles that give a false negative. i know it't not 100%, but there's a middle ground?

first thought is odd-night vc > odd-night neap, but i think if the doctor dies early, that's gonna be an uncomfortable number of potential clears.

[Something_Smart]

i was under the impression that gunsmith clears are generally considered to be Very Likely clears since there's very few roles that give a false negative. i know it't not 100%, but there's a middle ground?

weren't you the one that ran the game with 4 townies with guns and 3 mafia doctors or something

[Datisi]

the word "generally" is there for a reason. it was publicly known there's at least one mafia doctor, and the gunsmith was informed of the number of guns present in the game. heavy hints at there being something fucky with the gunsmith results. as opposed to here, where there aren't any.

if your point is that people will modmeta me and see that i like to test the limits of nrg like that, fair point i guess?

[Something_Smart]

if your point is that people will modmeta me and see that i like to test the limits of nrg like that, fair point i guess?

Yes, but more likely, your game is just going to naturally attract people who enjoy you as a mod and are familiar with your past games. If the gunsmith claims while any of these people are alive, they're likely to say something.

[Datisi]

i cannot escape my own meta even while modding...

1x town combined rolestopper vigilante
1x town gunsmith
1x town odd-night neapolitan
1x town d1,2,3 vengeful
1x town 1-shot backup gunsmith
5x vt

1x mafia 1-shot joat (doctor, activated bulletproof)
1x mafia goon
1x mafia informed rolestopper enabler (there is a town combined rolestopper vigilante in the game)

this is assuming that a mafia joat with a doctor ability would not have a gun.

i am considering whether "public info: there are 7 players in the game that would return positive to a gunsmith" would be a good idea here. i think(?) it would weaken the gunsmith somewhat considering it would be a "hey, there's something fucky with the guns" notice, but i have not actually thought about all of its implications.

[ChaosOmega]

Mafia JOAT with a doctor shot still has a gun, they would need to be a doctor to show up negative to a gunsmith.

If the amount of roles with guns is public knowledge, the gunsmith and neapolitan are functionally pretty similar given the amount of VT's in a game on average. If the neapolitan was a vanilla cop, each investigative would have one false negative in the scum team (assuming the joat is made into a doctor). It makes the role weaker, but also scum's only power right now is knowledge of a role, negative utility with giving town a vig if the informed dies, and a protective that only gains use if the negative utility happens.

[Datisi]

ah yeah, a town joat with a gun-positive power has a gun, but a mafia joat with a doctor shot doesn't have their gun removed. because normals.

yeah, not sure the public info route works. it made sense when it was 4 guns so there was ambiguity, with 7 it's just gonna be like "ok pretty much everyone has a gun".

[Datisi]

hmm. would a "mafia 1-shot doctor 1-shot activated bulletproof" have a gun? if the answer is "no", then an equivalent joat shouldn't either -- joats are just multiple 1-shots, right? anyway, not that important.

if i'm looking at something like this:

1x town combined rolestopper vigilante
1x town gunsmith
1x town odd-night vanilla cop
1x town d1,2,3 vengeful
1x town 1-shot backup gunsmith
5x vt

1x mafia 1-shot doctor
1x mafia goon
1x mafia informed rolestopper enabler (there is a town combined rolestopper vigilante in the game)

it *feels* townsided but i have s_s telling me there's not enough town power because gunsmith in a datisi game.

i'll sleep on it.

[Something_Smart]

With this many false guilties why does the gunsmith even have a false inno

Right now their results are barely more AI than flipping a coin.