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[morph the cat]

Vote Count 2-4

Suripoko

(4): SirCakez, That Idiot Ivan, Rogue, T3

SirCakez

(2): jjh927, mastina

The Bombay

(1): Lady Lambdadelta

T3

(1): The Bombay

Rogue

(1): StrangeMatter

That Idiot Ivan

(1): Suripoko

Not Voting

(1): Shiro

Plurality Rules are in Effect

Deadline: January 17, 1:00 PM US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-01-17 10:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[jjh927]

I still want to know about boxes

Particularly Suripoko as this might affect my elimination preferences, but if I get the answers from Ivan and Shiro I can manage while missing one response

[The Bombay]

jjh927 doesn't read chat, must be scum.

[jjh927]

Oh I see the post I missed

[That Idiot Ivan]

Oh I see the post I missed

In case it wasn't mine:

Oh, and to go ahead and put my money where my mouth is even though I think it's a horrible idea in a vacuum, I had no interaction with boxes last night. Enjoy that info along with a townread, jjh. (and yes, I claimed that in my neighborhood when you initially asked for claims so that it was on record)

[jjh927]

I've actually thought about it and I still think you're town, Bombay

I think it's kinda interesting that your whole night kill analysis thing relied on you being a widely townread slot rather than the kinda controversial slot I had you down as. To go down that train of thought you need to make the assumption that LLD not voting you any more means LLD doesn't scumread you any more. I don't see scum forgetting that LLD scumreads them.

[jjh927]

Oh I see the post I missed

In case it wasn't mine:

Oh, and to go ahead and put my money where my mouth is even though I think it's a horrible idea in a vacuum, I had no interaction with boxes last night. Enjoy that info along with a townread, jjh. (and yes, I claimed that in my neighborhood when you initially asked for claims so that it was on record)

It was yours

I'm going to decline to say whether or not I need more information now because that would be information in itself to people who can do basic logic, and still hopefully await Shiro's answer

[Suripoko]

I still want to know about boxes

Particularly Suripoko as this might affect my elimination preferences, but if I get the answers from Ivan and Shiro I can manage while missing one response

[Suripoko]

[Suripoko]

the suri lim is 100% the right play here

school has been hell but i might post more tmrw or on the weekend

Suripoko is obviously scum here let's get rid of them first step

what is the motivation for Ivan to fakeclaim as scum here? it does nothing for them

im caught up I just want to murder Suri and go from there
i feel like this game is easier than we are thinking

I think it's interesting the amount of people who have entirely glossed over that hammer.

VOTE: Kuripoko

ninja-
hi mala!

Its an awful fucking hammer?

And this is coming from the genius behind the pokemon quickhammer.

I’m of two minds about T3, because I do agree that scum likely was playing against town in the chess game. But whenever I go “uhhhh….” At T3 posting he flips town. Yes this is a hedge I’m aware and it’s why I qualified with it when I said “I’m of two minds”

I think it’s kinda bordering on what I can believe that town would be able to stop the town cop from firing?

I think assuming Pooky will or won't do pretty much anything as any alignment is a fool's take.

The hammer was beyond a bad play. This isn't a case of some new player ignorantly quick hammering. Suripoko are making very deliberate choices here. They started out with a gimmick to avoid having to go on record with any actual arguments. Then they quick hammered the first wagon they could. They're taking refuge in charm, amusement value, and audacity.

This isn't town behavior. Pooky will quickhammer a wagon, sure--as scum.

[Suripoko]

I am saying that a multi-shot cop that cannot be roleblocked + a multi-shot parity cop that cannot be roleblocked

+ my own role is simply too many town investigatives.

That is potentially 4 alignments being revealed night 1. I don't believe it.

A scum PT spy making a play makes way more sense imo.

[Suripoko]

I don't think it's fake. There's

no reason to conf. town me as a parity cop in that way.

[Rogue]

Essentially, Bombay, I’m at this-

I think LLDs behavior here matches very closely with her behavior in MtDew when she was confirmed town. I’m fine calling her town for now, revisit if it’s MELO and she’s not dead.
I think you guys are town, I think we’re syncing pretty significantly especially lately wrt setup and I think marci would have been much less present as scum? I also don’t think she’d pick a fight with LLD as scum.
I thought shiro seemed town yesterday.
T3 gives me a headache.
I think SM is misguided town, who doesn’t have full context.
Idk if jjh narrates the chess game like that as scum?

Ivan makes sense to me as a PT spy. Especially given my read on you guys and your claim plus info we know, it just doesn’t seem likely that there’s a parity cop, who also creates a neighborhood with multiple other people to become masons?
Cakez NEVER townreads me. He constantly thinks he’s caught me as scum. I’m debating if this is actual self awareness or scum who knows I’m town, because this isn’t my best showing activity wise
Mastina being a nonentity concerns me.
Pooky hydra is probably scum for that hammer. I literally just was scum with Pooky where he quickhammered a day one elim like that, and have seen the bear wiggle out of way too many ducking elims lately.

[Suripoko]

quickhammered

Dwlee99 (5): Lady Lambdadelta, T3, mastina, SirCakez, Shiro

@pooky can I get your read on me. It sounded like you wanted to hammer me

VOTE: DWLEE

[The Bombay]

T3 gives me a headache.

One of Suripokos posts has me convinced T3 and Sircakez are mafia besties with eachother. Your welcome for the hard carry. ( :

[The Bombay]

Pooky hydra is probably scum for that hammer. I literally just was scum with Pooky where he quickhammered a day one elim like that, and have seen the bear wiggle out of way too many ducking elims lately.

Maybe if you got better reasons instead of just being scared of Pooky I would be more convinced.

[Rogue]

Why are they town?

I can’t use my typical tell wrt antitown antics on a player I know who subverts it.

What are you seeing I’m missing?

[The Bombay]

I think it's kinda interesting that your whole night kill analysis thing relied on you being a widely townread slot rather than the kinda controversial slot I had you down as. To go down that train of thought you need to make the assumption that LLD not voting you any more means LLD doesn't scumread you any more. I don't see scum forgetting that LLD scumreads them.

Please, I don't think too much I just do stuff. How else would I be a dumb queen?

[The Bombay]

Why are they town?

I can’t use my typical tell wrt antitown antics on a player I know who subverts it.

What are you seeing I’m missing?

Remind me in six hours I think I'll be at home then.

[The Bombay]

Essentially, Bombay, I’m at this-

I think LLDs behavior here matches very closely with her behavior in MtDew when she was confirmed town. I’m fine calling her town for now, revisit if it’s MELO and she’s not dead.
I think you guys are town, I think we’re syncing pretty significantly especially lately wrt setup and I think marci would have been much less present as scum? I also don’t think she’d pick a fight with LLD as scum.
I thought shiro seemed town yesterday.
T3 gives me a headache.
I think SM is misguided town, who doesn’t have full context.
Idk if jjh narrates the chess game like that as scum?

Ivan makes sense to me as a PT spy. Especially given my read on you guys and your claim plus info we know, it just doesn’t seem likely that there’s a parity cop, who also creates a neighborhood with multiple other people to become masons?
Cakez NEVER townreads me. He constantly thinks he’s caught me as scum. I’m debating if this is actual self awareness or scum who knows I’m town, because this isn’t my best showing activity wise
Mastina being a nonentity concerns me.
Pooky hydra is probably scum for that hammer. I literally just was scum with Pooky where he quickhammered a day one elim like that, and have seen the bear wiggle out of way too many ducking elims lately.

I feel like a lot of of these match mine.

Main points of difference are T3, who I have gone at length on.

Mastina, who I am leaning pretty strongly on them just being tunneled town. Their reasons for being so sure I am scum feel too bad to be made up scum reasons. Like, I feel that scum Mastina would try to have a some what convincing reason if they were going to approach so certain.

Suri, who I am more null on. I'd say null town. I could see scum Pooky and Ydra posting this way. Hammer was anti-town.

Here are the things that make me consider they could be town. I don't like the hammer, but I also don't fits the bill of calling it a quickhammer. They said they would hammer him if he hit e-1 a good 200 posts before their hammer. Obviously, the hammer was anti-town, but it was not completely out of no where like Pooky's hammer on Titus in Bloodstained. I also liked that they also appear to be questioning Ivan's claim. Particularly 872, because that is a part that I missed. I don't know that scum steps out like that. My reasoning for this thought feels convoluted as I typed it.

Spoiler:

If Ivan is scum, then I think they are making a play to get LLD to town lock Ivan to do their pushing for them. Pointing out a pretty good point about the claim feels counter to that. Drawing LLD's attention to it.

If it does somehow turn out that Ivan is town, sticking their neck out there still feels wrong if they are scum. Ivan has already voiced suspicions of the slot, and that just gives Ivan even more reason to target Suri. Alternatively, if they decided that maybe they could get Ivan killed, where are the rest of the scum team edging the thread that way?

And finally, all of my scum reads are pushing them.

Suripoko (4):

SirCakez, That Idiot Ivan,

Rogue,

T3

Like, there is my scum pile. And if Suri is town, they are an easy and "safe" place to park your vote after that hammer.

[The Bombay]

Those are Luke thoughts. Marci might have more to say later, not sure.

[mastina]

When your reads and Skitter were on "entirely opposite pages," I feel like you might want to question your reads when they choose to kill Skitter.

skitter had me as scum--that makes me disinclined to believe that scum killed her for read accuracy and inclined to believe they killed her for being one of the towniest slots in the game, but less likely to be protected just because she's not accurate in her reads.

Even if I didn't reject your entire premise that I'm allowed to find something simultaneously scummy and obnoxious

And yet you said 'obnoxious' without saying 'scummy'.

If it was scummy

and

obnoxious, why didn't you SAY "scummy and obnoxious" or some variant thereof? You said 'obnoxious', and only obnoxious. You said nothing of the scumminess.

[mastina]

My role allowed a neighborhood to form with two other players last night that persists into today. By foregoing posting there until night ended, I was able to get a parity cop result on the other two players. LLD and Shiro share an alignment.

I am soft-counterclaiming this

.

Not a hard-counterclaim, but:

I am a communicative role

, similar to a neighborizer (albeit not as strong).

Through my role,

I know that there is another investigative player in the game

(who claimed to me specifically). This player I 100% trust to be town absolutely.

Between Bombay's claim, Ivan's claim, the investigative player that I know, and Dwlee, there's no way all four of them are town, and I believe Ivan is scum specifically because an ungated parity cop that cannot be stopped, when Dwlee was already a basically ungated full cop? Not something which is going to exist.

I believe that Ivan's role was designed as a town role, so I believe the parity cop is real. But while I believe Ivan's realclaiming a parity cop, I don't believe Ivan is town from it.

I was planning on cheekily claiming if there was ever heavy suspicion on me, "I guarantee you that my role is a town one, I can mod-confirm it to be so". And then pointing this out. But since Ivan has claimed a Parity Cop, I need to point this out: there was a mod post saying "all roles are designed as town, and then modified as needed". (I can't find it, I think morph either edited it out or deleted it, but it was there during the pregame, everyone who checked the thread then can confirm. OH WAIT I found it.)

Alignments will be randomized after the roles are initially designed,

and roles will be revised as needed based on alignments

.

This ensures that subreddit flavor has no correlation with the alignment rolls. Any subreddit in the game can be any alignment.

Alignments are given AFTER roles are designed.

You can have a Doctor, Cop, and Vig, all designed as town roles, end up as being scum roles--and then, still as the Doctor, Cop, and Vig, be modified as the Scum Doctor, Scum Cop, and scum Vig, to be revised as needed to make them be balanced.

So Ivan is probably truthfully claiming with the parity cop.

But lying by omission by leaving out the extras of the role. Rolecopping both individuals, roleblocking both individuals, redirecting/busdriving/something else both individuals, there's any number of hidden modifications to the role you can make where scum has incentive to use it, and in fact, the target selection makes me think that it was done for precisely that extra. Keeping LLD in reigns makes a lot of sense and gaining something on Shiro also makes a lot of sense.

The target selection makes perfect sense for scum who have extra to the role beyond parity cop, but not make sense for town who is genuine in being nothing but a parity cop.

Why does the target selection make no sense for town?

Because LLD was basically universally townread and a strong player who was already pushing hard. If skitter wasn't the nightkill, there's a very high chance that it'd have been LLD who was killed instead.

LLD was always going to be town in that parity cop result, and we'd learn nothing from it, because she already was insanely town.

And Shiro adds nothing to that.

Tell me--

was there so much as a single player pushing Shiro

at all

on D1?

Because I'm pretty damn sure that not a single person was pushing Shiro on D1, and there was nobody even pushing Shiro on D2. Nobody pushing Shiro means that conftowning Shiro doesn't actually change the gamestate. Shiro was at no risk of being mislimmed here as town, LLD was at no risk of being mislimmed here as town; the result did nothing to change the gamestate.

Ivan as scum loses

nothing

from giving the result.

What does Ivan as scum gain from the result?

Whatever Ivan's extra beyond the parity cop is, for a start.
And then the pocketing of LLD (who is, as mentioned, strongly pushing) as well as Shiro.

VOTE: That Idiot Ivan
Basically confscum here.

[mastina]

I don't think it's fake. There's no reason to conf. town me as a parity cop in that way.

I don't think it's fake either.

But there very much IS reason to "conftown" you (quotes, because you already were conftown).

All roles in this game were

designed as town roles

.
But then, after being assigned an alignment,

adjusted based off of alignment

.
There's literally half a dozen modifications to the role which could benefit the scum. Parity cop, but rolecops the targets to give scum the info. Parity cop, but roleblocks the targets to prevent them from acting. Parity cop, but loverizes the targets to allow for them to both die at the same time. Parity cop, but busdrives the targets. And so on and so forth. You don't know about them because Ivan isn't going to claim the scum addition to the town role, Ivan's only going to claim the original role.

Beyond that?

You were a top candidate for being nightkilled N1. The scum killed skitter N1 instead--but why did they not kill you N1? Because they were already targeting you with a role. You were targeted by a role and as such scum had reason to not kill you N1.

The parity cop helps pocket you, when you are already a strong pusher--you literally basically singlehandedly pushed through the Dwlee elimination. You pushed through ONE elimination; tell me, LLD: what stops scum from trying to pocket you in order to push through more?

I do not believe that the mods would have allowed us + Dwlee's cop + a parity cop to all fire night one.

Then there is a fourth investigative role ON TOP OF THESE THREE OTHERS CLAIMED, which I know the player of and I trust that player to be town.

That's

four

investigative role claims, one of which being a Cop (proven from Dwlee) and a second being a Parity Cop (Ivan's claim) that is also a neighborizer who cannot be blocked or redirected or otherwise interfered with.

[The Bombay]

Yeah, I also kind of felt like the choice for parity cop targets was off, but not exactly the same reasons you said. I was kind of hoping Ivan would respond to this.

Ivan, can you talk about why you chose Shiro and LLD for your parity cop?