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[morph the cat]

Vote Count 2-4

Suripoko

(4): SirCakez, That Idiot Ivan, Rogue, T3

That Idiot Ivan

(2): Suripoko, mastina

SirCakez

(2): jjh927, The Bombay

The Bombay

(1): Lady Lambdadelta

Rogue

(1): StrangeMatter

Not Voting

(1): Shiro

Plurality Rules are in Effect

Deadline: January 17, 1:00 PM US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-01-17 10:00:00)

Mod Notes:

SirCakez is v/la until 1/17
-

[The Bombay]

I honestly don't know if this is real arrogance or scum bravado but the truth is you were never getting shot night 1 or 2 IMO.

Well, when I originally was trying to set up being killed (when I claimed the roleblock), that was before you announced you wanted me dead. Walking into day 2, I was decently town read, and was "slipping" that I was an investigative. That is generally a good shot at getting killed.

Of course the calculations changed wildly once you decided you wanted me dead.

[The Bombay]

Don't worry Luke night 3 will be our night to die. <3

[The Bombay]

the fact that you thought that ODD NIGHT WATCHER and ONE SHOT PARITY COP with Dwlee's cop thing was so unbalanced I will never fucking understand as a townie logic

I still feel like a potential 4 alignment reveals night 1 seems like too much. I guess less drastically so given the third party.

And again, my own role could easily have flipped to not fire night 1.

But the their party, and your reaction to the claim are giving me second thoughts.

I really want to kill T3.

[The Bombay]

VOTE: t3

I'm out for the night.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I honestly want to kill Mastina over T3 but I admit T3 is under my radar and I don't have a good read on them

[jjh927]

T3 fullclaim might actually be pretty high priority

Still think t3 is town though, personally

[That Idiot Ivan]

I promise you, Lukewarm, I'm genuinely mad. You might have to wait for post-game or dead thread to confirm it, but trust me, I'm pissed as hell.

You're always so convinced that your perspective is the only possible one and that your purported logical conclusions and plans are the only way to go. Like, congrats, you're probably town; how much did you burn to the ground to get there?

Just because shit can fire night one doesn't mean it will. Your claimed investigative's existence and Dwlee's weren't guaranteed to be available. And circumstances exist where I wouldn't have used mine immediately.

If you really are town, the I guess I am not sure why this anger is directed at me. I claimed an investigative role strategically trying to draw the night kill on the same night I would be unkillable. That does not burn anything to the ground.

Unless you are mad that I scum read you and didn't believe your claim, which also does not seem like the right way to approach this game.

But literally everything I revealed about my role that you seemed to think was a dumb thing to reveal, was me trying to get killed.

Up until LLD, who from your point of view should be confirmed town, pushed the rest out of me. Why are you not shouting at LLD?

Your anger feels misplaced. I said over and over that I did not want to claim the part of my role that was actually bad for me to claim.

Because it was completely unnecessary. You were sufficiently townread to potentially draw the NK tonight anyways at the point when the day started. You didn't need to broadcast information to scum (and yes, I'm assuming at this point that you're town, which factors into my annoyance) and you're the ones in control of your role information. If you're town, you know you're town. Barring mod info, that's more than you know about anyone else. It was just all so...pointless.

I'm not thrilled with LLD either, don't worry. But I'm pretty sure she doesn't care, so. There we are.

Bombay, might I suggest you stop trying to sing the song of this game when you've only been given a handful of notes?

Hey, this probably applied to you when you got mad at me mentioning the roleblock. You didn't know I was a commuter. Gasp, turns out Luke did think that roleblock comment through, and you just didn't have all of the information.

It really didn't. I'm upset that you're trying to pretend like you knew that my investigative power wasn't incompatible with yours when you spent the entire time since my claim stating that I couldn't be a town role. This is probably a discussion to be had more productively post-game when we both know one another's alignments as a guarantee and aren't frustrated in the moment.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm in support of every person in this town claiming today so, no I don't particularly care about how people feel about me making people say the words.

[jjh927]

People should also feel free to claim out of order

[jjh927]

Probably won't happen because people have a tendency to think that the information they have is really cool and important, but the option is there

[That Idiot Ivan]

Do you think that with a likely 7:3:1 split we're in a good position to have all the info on the table? I'm doubtful that a morph game is that readily solved.

[jjh927]

I'm gonna go to bed and I should probably leave this discussion for actual townies

I would very much like to see a day 2 massclaim just so I can flex a bit, but I do get that my stakes aren't really as high here as normal

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Do you think that with a likely 7:3:1 split we're in a good position to have all the info on the table? I'm doubtful that a morph game is that readily solved.

I think right now we're in a right state of confusion.

A massclaim will not break this game... but it might inform us going forward on how we can play.

[That Idiot Ivan]

You know that Cabd and ffery are going to include something to punish town for giving scum free info. I don't think we're that confused at this point.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You know that Cabd and ffery are going to include something to punish town for giving scum free info. I don't think we're that confused at this point.

Okay, I'll sleep on it.

You and Bombay needed to claim though or I was gonna lose my mind and JJH needed to claim for being a cheeky fucker with answers who wasn't sharing.

I stand by that much at least. But we don't need to rush the rest.

[That Idiot Ivan]

So, tallying up reactions here.

Lady Lambdadelta, Shiro: if scum, fuck me, they put on a hell of a neighborhood show, gg from me.

Rogue: I really expect more from notscience here. I don't like the easy dodge behind 'TENET was so scary, I can't possibly analyze any of this beyond paranoia.' It's plausible, but it did nothing to improve my read on them. Having a D2 claim that there are two very likely conftown players available on the table and doing nothing with it beyond turtling is so useless. There was some reachout from Mala, but it wasn't enough to launch my read above the reactions of others.

T3: I went back and reread his ISO because I know that a lot of his posts I've read and thought they came from a town place, but there wasn't anything that lined up enough to be memorable. There's a lot of noise, but when I get to one of his game content posts, I find/found myself nodding in agreement. Looking back I'm still there, and his posts today don't leave him a lot of wiggle room on Suripoko's flip. His reaction to my claim was in line with his previous posts' mindset. Not distraught, but more observing.

The Bombay: Lukewarm doing Lukewarm things. This hydra has gone into every post from an extremely cemented 'we are town' mindset, even if the results don't match up. I'll get over it, but it's town.

SirCakez: Also not a reaction of 'OMG where does this leave my scum team room to go?' I got about as much as I'd expect to from town-Cakez given the V/LA.

StrangeMatter: this was probably the most informative reaction. They went way off into left field later in the process, after the scum PT likely had a chance to react, and addressed the question by wanting Shiro to confirm she was in the neighborhood at all. This...is really not the reaction of a scum team member who's concerned about how to chip away at a 2-3 person town block, depending on how you read my involvement. The answer was clearly going to come back in the affirmative, and it doesn't do anything to help a scum standing.

jjh927: rendered irrelevant; didn't look like concerned scum though

mastina: I skimmed the 'rah, rah' case. I think Bombay has demonstrated the absurdity of thinking that having a role in the same family counters another player's role. More to the point, this reads as invested mastina-scum. It's a big story she's telling, with points she can get really passionate about. And she latched onto the idea that my role was overpowered with surprising facility. She's also pulling out tiny things to nitpick about (obnoxious being the starring role there), and the threads of her 'solve' are flimsy enough that she can drop the whole mess once a piece flips town.

SirCakez is concerning.

Why was SirCakez concerning? I don't feel like you've ever elaborated on this and it's just not been talked about it.

Oh it's probably StrangeMatter since this is scum theater here.

It also is proof of why Ivan is scum btw; if SirCakez was so concerning, why was SirCakez not one of Ivan's targets?

Like this. Makes a nice tale, easy to shrug and go 'oh well' when it gets a hole in it.

Add in the kissing up to LLD about how she was clearly the second choice for NK because she was so town for her Day One play, but yet the assumption that someone could pocket LLD in a neighborhood. The claim that scum would want to clear two people from a wagon on town.

I also don't like the way she set up those chained elims in the event that either Bombay or I flipped:

One of them is town, the other is scum, pretty much guaranteed.

Also, not that I expect a change of direction from this, but it amuses me and so I ask.

If you believe jjh to be town you shouldn't be trusting Ivan to be town.

About that...

Suripoko: Look, Pooky's had two games in the past year where he effectively quickhammered as scum. Bloodstained (with mitigating motivations, sure) and here's where Pooky effectively quickhammers in Grand Idea game last year. Claiming you're going to do something anti-town in advance doesn't magically make it pro-town. This is cheeky scum. He has plenty of experience deciding how to ride out this kind of move. I'm not interested in voting out anyone except Suripoko and mastina, and Suripoko takes priority for me.

[mastina]

This slot is currently calling me confirmed town and trying to make wagons that include neither Shiro nor My vote.

You are townlocking a slot that is hard-pocketing you as scum (Ivan via neighborhood).

You are scumreading at least one player that I know to be town (myself).

That kinda puts a dampener on following you.

How can there exist a townie who both believes Shiro and I are town and believes they will achieve a scum elimination today without at least one of our votes onside?

Plurality rules mean we don't need all the town. We just need the scum to not all vote as one and not have three townies vote with them. With 11 alive and 3 scum, to get majority, scum need 3 townies to get to 6 votes.

In contrast, the town doesn't need nearly as much. We need as little as 4. 5, if one townie sides with scum. 6, if two townies side with scum.

So even if you and Shiro scumside today the town can still overpower your gamethrowing.
(I'll note that jjh is technically being considered town for this when he technically isn't but jjh is playing as if he's town here pretty damn transparently, sooooo...)

Okay, so let's play a game shall we.
Ivan Shiro Mastina you and I are off the table for today. In this hypothetical.

That leaves
Bombay
Rogue
SM
Cakez
T3
Suripoko

Who would you kill today and assuming they flip scum (so assuming you're right) who is scum with them?

SirCakez easily.
You left out StrangeMatter who I think has decent scum equity. Not my first elimination since that'd be SirCakez or Ivan but if Ivan absolutely cannot be on the table, then SirCakez is the obvious choice.

So I'm wondering, do you actually believe this is actually a theater that I would do as scum?

It's not 100% certain, but it's at the very least

plausible

, if not probable. It's part POE (there can only be so many players who are scum), part seeing the interactions and them looking like scum theater.

That said, I'm not even considering voting you until both SirCakez and Ivan are dead, so it's a "cross that bridge when we come to it" thing.

P-edit: JFC, why would you claim that if you're town?!? I don't even care about your alignment any more; my brain hurts from the bad choices and logic.

This should be a red flag to you, LLD, that Ivan is scum.

You, LLD, literally demanded that Bombay claim.

Bombay did so.

For this? Ivan tries to throw shade onto Bombay for

doing what

you asked them to

.

And you still don't think you've been pocketed by Ivan.

That being said VOTE: SirCakez since that is where jjh said he would go.

Back to here, then.
VOTE: SirCakez

[Shiro]

ooof I missed a lot will read up today

[mastina]

Oh, I'm the one who told Mastina I was investigative and can verify her role
I did try to hint in a post today that I was only investigative in an extremely broad sense, as I wasn't given a lot of options for things I cpuld claim

Look, 100 characters is a very hard limit, I tried the best I could to get as much in there as I could but I didn't really have a lot of maneuverability given the strict limit.

As-is I had to get very creative. (Btw fun fact about the url= command. You can't have a url= with only one character within. I tried that, but it ended up breaking, so I had to give up one of the urls I was intending to include in the message because there wasn't enough characters, I legit used 99/100 and didn't have anything else to add with the limit.)

I want a Mastina full claim next, please. Mastina can popcorn from there.

There is a 0 percent chance that is her whole role.

My full role is,
r/AsheMains (obviously, what did you think the Shieldbow + Wit's End nerfs + Hawkeye was? And Hawkeye was also a role hint since my ability is based very very loosely on Hawkshot, presumably on the justification that it's communicating info to your team but I admit I was hella disappointed with my role since I feel like Cabd/ffery didn't really use anything of Ashe well; I'd have made Hawkshot an investigative or given a different ability from her other abilities);
My abilities are a voice + vote, with:
Hawkshot (e), messenger. I send messages to a player each night, with a 100-character limit.
If I deliver 3 successful letters, I gain access to a 3x public crier, also with a 100-character limit.

I pretty much almost fullclaimed this in my very first post.
If you looked at the two posts I linked, one was my 100-character-limit day post, and the other was the mod posting my public crier night message.

I realize that's not a very strong, not a very flashy, not a very good role--I wasn't exactly happy with it myself, but I have a way of making this sort of role be disproportionately powerful by having it get more mileage than intended. It's disappointing and frustrating, but it's something that I still wanted to try and maximize. I wanted to try and see if, in spite of the character limit, I could manage to form a townbloc and chain-claims N1 and maybe fakeclaim masons.

I knew you'd never go along with a mason gambit with me, but I didn't have a lot of good prospects. It needed to be a player that I could trust to be town but who could work with me and had the personality where they

might

be willing to go along with a mason gambit.

So that's why I chose jjh N1. I sent to him this message;

m2

100C
Gambit Y/N word D2 1st post
Also optionally
I
K
D(ecline)
P(ass onto N2 targ)
S(no N2 share of you)

N
I
S

Which told me, "no mason gambit"; "Investigative" "do not pass this information on to your N2 target".

I think that, as far as mileage from my role goes, I did as much as I could, but I guarantee you, that's my role. If you don't think it fits and that there must be more to it, take it up with the mods because that's what I got, nothing more.

WHY ARE YOU STILL TALKING?!?!?

No, this was the correct choice.

Why are you being like this?

Because Ivan is scum, faking a reaction in spite of Bombay literally doing what you asked them to do.

(Gonna be breaking off what was originally one post into a second with more RE: Ivan.)

[mastina]

Once the day ends, my role targets two players to neighborize in one neighborhood. They get immediate access to post. I'm informed of who's been chosen, and then I decide if I want to use any of my powers. Yes, powers, plural. All are one-shot. Once I submit an action or declare I'm taking no action, I gain viewing access to the PT. I can post from then on if I choose, but if I've chosen to take an action, that action is blocked if I post before night ends/mods clear me. Neighborhood dissolves when the following day phase ends and the process repeats.

Key info there is that my parity cop is one-shot and I have no control over who gets targeted for my neighborhoods. Given info is stronger early game and both targeted players were on a town wagon flip, I opted to use the parity cop shot N1. Hence not being concerned about being blocked in the future. That isn't my only one-shot power, but it's definitely my best one.

This is all well and good and all, but it doesn't change the core of why I think you're scum:

Even if I didn't reject your entire premise that I'm allowed to find something simultaneously scummy and obnoxious

And yet you said 'obnoxious' without saying 'scummy'.

If it was scummy

and

obnoxious, why didn't you SAY "scummy and obnoxious" or some variant thereof? You said 'obnoxious', and only obnoxious. You said nothing of the scumminess.

Word choice IS important.

You know how we have the term 'scumslip'? A scumslip is defined by a

choice of words

that reveals alignment

. You didn't say Suripoko was scum for the hammer. You didn't say Suripoko was scum being obnoxious with the hammer. You said Suripoko's hammer was obnoxious, period. Which is, explicitly: a scumslip. A choice of words that reveals alignment, because word choice IS important.

I believe that Ivan's role was designed as a town role, so I believe the parity cop is real. But while I believe Ivan's realclaiming a parity cop, I don't believe Ivan is town from it.

I was planning on cheekily claiming if there was ever heavy suspicion on me, "I guarantee you that my role is a town one, I can mod-confirm it to be so". And then pointing this out. But since Ivan has claimed a Parity Cop, I need to point this out: there was a mod post saying "all roles are designed as town, and then modified as needed". (I can't find it, I think morph either edited it out or deleted it, but it was there during the pregame, everyone who checked the thread then can confirm. OH WAIT I found it.)

Alignments will be randomized after the roles are initially designed,

and roles will be revised as needed based on alignments

.

This ensures that subreddit flavor has no correlation with the alignment rolls. Any subreddit in the game can be any alignment.

Alignments are given AFTER roles are designed.

You can have a Doctor, Cop, and Vig, all designed as town roles, end up as being scum roles--and then, still as the Doctor, Cop, and Vig, be modified as the Scum Doctor, Scum Cop, and scum Vig, to be revised as needed to make them be balanced.

So Ivan is probably truthfully claiming with the parity cop.

But lying by omission by leaving out the extras of the role. Rolecopping both individuals, roleblocking both individuals, redirecting/busdriving/something else both individuals, there's any number of hidden modifications to the role you can make where scum has incentive to use it.
Tell me--

was there so much as a single player pushing Shiro

at all

on D1?

Because I'm pretty damn sure that not a single person was pushing Shiro on D1, and there was nobody even pushing Shiro on D2. Nobody pushing Shiro means that conftowning Shiro doesn't actually change the gamestate. Shiro was at no risk of being mislimmed here as town, LLD was at no risk of being mislimmed here as town; the result did nothing to change the gamestate.

Ivan as scum loses

nothing

from giving the result.

What does Ivan as scum gain from the result?

Whatever Ivan's extra beyond the parity cop is, for a start.
And then the pocketing of LLD (who is, as mentioned, strongly pushing) as well as Shiro.

And this still holds. Yes, the lack of choosing targets negates the part about targeting LLD and Shiro specifically. However, the rest remains.

I don't think it's fake. There's no reason to conf. town me as a parity cop in that way.

I don't think it's fake either.

But there very much IS reason to "conftown" you (quotes, because you already were conftown).

All roles in this game were

designed as town roles

.
But then, after being assigned an alignment,

adjusted based off of alignment

.
There's literally half a dozen modifications to the role which could benefit the scum. Parity cop, but rolecops the targets to give scum the info. Parity cop, but roleblocks the targets to prevent them from acting. Parity cop, but loverizes the targets to allow for them to both die at the same time. Parity cop, but busdrives the targets. And so on and so forth. You don't know about them because Ivan isn't going to claim the scum addition to the town role, Ivan's only going to claim the original role.

Beyond that?

You were a top candidate for being nightkilled N1. The scum killed skitter N1 instead--but why did they not kill you N1? Because they were already targeting you with a role. You were targeted by a role and as such scum had reason to not kill you N1.

The parity cop helps pocket you, when you are already a strong pusher--you literally basically singlehandedly pushed through the Dwlee elimination. You pushed through ONE elimination; tell me, LLD: what stops scum from trying to pocket you in order to push through more?

Alignments will be randomized after the roles are initially designed,

and roles will be revised as needed based on alignments

.

This ensures that subreddit flavor has no correlation with the alignment rolls. Any subreddit in the game can be any alignment.

EVERY role in this game, every single one, was designed first as a town role. All 13 players received town roles.

The three scum roles were, after being designed as scum roles, then modified based on alignment.

The modifications to the role would mean that the original, town-designed (and thus, town-appearing in a massclaim) role, would still look like town when claimed because it was town...but that the scum role would then have something extra beyond the claimed role.

what is the motivation for Ivan to fakeclaim as scum here? it does nothing for them

Realclaiming a mod-given role that has an extra effect that they didn't claim which pockets the player who singlehandedly forced through a Dwlee elimination sounds like pretty damn strong motivation to me.

Hell,

I probably would have killed you over Skitter as well

(but probably Rogue over you).

You have actively and loudly pushed

me in every single game we have ever played in together. I would rather not have you here to do that again if I really were scum and had a choice in who was here.

LLD, who wrestles the thread hard to push through her scum reads

, who in prone to scum reading me, and has already voiced suspicions on me, or Skitter, who is repeatedly defending me at every turn.

This is why Ivan is scum btw.

Bombay's reasons here aren't limited to Bombay.

Basically every player in the game has identical sentiments--LLD has loudly pushed. LLD wrestles the thread hard to push her scumreads. LLD is prone to scumreading scum. This, REGARDLESS of who is scum in the game. Add in that LLD was already obvtown, and the question becomes:

who has motivation to keep LLD alive over skitter?

How about the person intending to hard-pocket her via a claim in a neighborhood of their creation who targeted her D1?

While you might not have chosen to target LLD, you knew LLD was the target of your role--this disincentives you from killing LLD N1 and gives you incentive to keep her alive.

If they are scum why pick me for that gambit?

You were under zero pressure D1 (and for that matter, D2).

If there were a push on you as scum D1, then conftowning you might lose something.

But with no push on you D1, conftowning you loses nothing.

Conftowning a player means that they go from mislimmable to not-mislimmable.

But if you were not going to be a mislim without a claim, then the conftown doesn't do anything.

It generally seems like a bad gambit and their interaction in our neighborhood seems genuine as hell.

Fun fact, Scum Neighborizer is one of the strongest roles in existence (in Normals, it literally has a

higher winrate than scum roleblockers

, higher winrate than scum ninjas, higher winrate than scum strongmen), and the outcome of May and Brendan's Pokemon game is proof enough of that in action.

I wonder why?

(It's because pocketing people in neighborhoods as scum is ridiculously easy.)

And this part? It actually gets

stronger

with a lack of ability to select your target.

[mastina]

I did consider that she might be reflexive given I targeted her, though.

I wish. That'd be a lot more fun and would allow me to blatantly copy your gambit from Animals UPick 2.

Alas, it was just me directly targeting you because who else was I going to target?

Rogue, a fairly high chance of being a nightkill and who literally just came from a game with a neighborhood scum being treated as a mason earning them a win? Even if Rogue lived, they'd have said no.

skitter, a player scumreading me with a fairly decent chance of being nightkilled? Even if she lived, she'd have said no.

T3? Maybe, but I don't know T3 that well, I don't know what he'd be down for.

StrangeMatter? Total unknown.

Shiro? Maybe, but I seem to recall Shiro was scumreading me D1 so probably not.

LLD? With the message coming from

me

? Hell no she'd never agree to it.

Suripoko? The slot communicating in images? If they chose to break their restriction or make images that clearly and unambiguously communicated, maybe, but I've no way of controlling what images they produce and frankly I don't really understand their images so what they think would be clearly and unambiguously answering me wouldn't be clear and unambiguous to me.

Bombay? One of my strongest scumreads N1.
SirCakez? One of my strongest scumreads N1.
That Idiot Ivan? Among my scumreads N1.

You were the slot most likely to get things going, and from you I was planning on trying to coordinate a use N2 during the course of D2.

[mastina]

OH forgot to select someone next to claim.

Should be fairly obvious;

SirCakez should claim.

[mastina]

More to the point, this reads as invested mastina-scum.

Well this confirms that either you've never played with me or that you're scum bullshitting because in the last three years?

There's no such thing as invested scumastina.

I can provide receipts for this claim if necessary but I really shouldn't need to given that literally anyone who's played with me in the last three years and seen my towngame vs my scumgame will know it to be true.

And she latched onto the idea that my role was overpowered with surprising facility.

I said there was no way your claimed role was true.

As it turns out, your claimed role was not in fact true.

I will call out bullshit that I see as bullshit and have in fact done so before as town and said this exact thing back then. The player said basically the same thing you are, that I was scum for calling out a roleclaim that wasn't real, when I was calling out the roleclaim correctly as not being real. (Fucked if I know what game it was tho. I know it happened in a past towngame of mine, I can't recall which tho.)

Add in the kissing up to LLD about how she was clearly the second choice for NK because she was so town for her Day One play, but yet the assumption that someone could pocket LLD in a neighborhood.

These don't contradict each other, they augment each other.

It is in fact possible to pocket players in neighborhoods; LLD was definitely one of the players most likely to be killed N1; LLD

not

being killed N1 is almost assuredly thanks to being pocketable in the neighborhood.

I also don't like the way she set up those chained elims in the event that either Bombay or I flipped

Because I am scumreading both of you but you clearly cannot be scum together.

And thus, one must be scum while the other must be town.

My scumread on you is stronger than my scumread on Bombay because you're basically obvscum coasting off of a roleclaim and the related pocketing of LLD from neighborhood posting.

[The Bombay]

And this part? It actually gets

stronger

with a lack of ability to select your target.

Mastina, why are you simultaneously calling Ivan scum, but then also taking all parts of his claim at face value?

You did this earlier when you said you believed he really was a parity cop. You are doing this now when you say that you believe he did not get to choose his targets.

This feels counter intuitive, to just believe him while calling him "lockscum."

As someone who was not believing him, my thoughts were that the parity cop just was not real. He was just a PT spy. Why did you jump to that being real?