Mini 2254 | Subreddit uPick | Fin

[That Idiot Ivan]

Also, yes, I'm pushing for a lot of reads from folks, but looking at deadline we end Monday morning in most American timezones, so a bit more than a day and a half. Yes, it's plurality, so we aren't in danger of no elim. Still. Flipping a wagon with three votes on it instead of six is a lot less data. (This announcement has been brought to you by another 'O' word, obvious. In other news, water is wet.)

Plus, if Suripoko is the elim leading up to deadline, we apparently have to factor in time for them to set up their game of Pictionary: The Role Claim Expansion.

[The Bombay]

that's really gutsy for bombay or ivan to fakeclaim though.

A knee ways,
I had a feeling That Idiot Ivan

could be

town because :waves hands: roleblocker helps scum combat all the investigatives, but I'm also not surprised that its a one shot.

This T3 posts reads a bit like too much info (in That Idiot Ivan = town world), but also reads like he wants to appear like he's trying to stop the fight, but isn't really (because he isn't directing the conversation elsewhere.)

please don’t tunnel on me

I will be tunneling you until you have spoken about the chess game. Thanks!

[That Idiot Ivan]

I don’t have a good read on them currently. I need to look into them for sure before having something definite there.

As per my above post, please do so? (The fun part is you can skip the part of her ISO where she reposted her wall of outrage and just read it once)

[The Bombay]

Mastina's recent posts have dropped my read on her.

Strange to say, but her tunnel on me was propping up my read of her quite a bit.

Going from saying I am lock scum, to then seeing me and Ivan in a 1 v 1 and siding with me felt weird. Also, her stance that Ivan really was a parity cop, just a scum one, doesn't feel like a real thought.

Obviously not partnered with Ivan, but in a town!Ivan world scum!Mastina makes sense.

[That Idiot Ivan]

Clearly scum need a vanilla parity cop here. Then they could overcome whatever power town has in this role madness game. Oh wait...

[That Idiot Ivan]

But seriously, now I want to make a game where scum get some kind of comparison cop, like send in two names and be told if the investigative function between the two is at parity. So cop and tracker gets the same result as doc and VT.(same), but a watcher and roleblocker get the result (different).

Enjoy the WIFOM.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled scumhunting.

[The Bombay]

I also feel like marci not being able to read me is weird given this is our fourth game together. Admittedly I’m not as aggressive as I am typically here, so that might be part of it? But dunno.

Imagine actually paying attention, couldn't be me. When was the last time I exposed a read on you in any game? : )

Everything you do, literally just makes me stare, I don't know what to think of it so my solution was to just ignore you.
Something might stand out when I iso you, but I don't know for sure, and I don't know when I'll have time to do that, how much longer is this phase?

please don’t tunnel on me

Well maybe if you were town and did something townie I wouldn't have to.
(I'm not even tunneling yet tho so like, what)

~Marcistar

[That Idiot Ivan]

I don't know for sure, and I don't know when I'll have time to do that, how much longer is this phase?

Also, yes, I'm pushing for a lot of reads from folks, but looking at deadline

we end Monday morning in most American timezones, so a bit more than a day and a half

. Yes, it's plurality, so we aren't in danger of no elim. Still. Flipping a wagon with three votes on it instead of six is a lot less data. (This announcement has been brought to you by another 'O' word, obvious. In other news, water is wet.)

Plus, if Suripoko is the elim leading up to deadline, we apparently have to factor in time for them to set up their game of Pictionary: The Role Claim Expansion.

[mastina]

And this part? It actually gets

stronger

with a lack of ability to select your target.

Mastina, why are you simultaneously calling Ivan scum, but then also taking all parts of his claim at face value?

How many times will I need to quote it?

Alignments will be randomized after the roles are initially designed,

and roles will be revised as needed based on alignments

.

This ensures that subreddit flavor has no correlation with the alignment rolls. Any subreddit in the game can be any alignment.

Alignments are given AFTER roles are designed.

You can have a Doctor, Cop, and Vig, all designed as town roles, end up as being scum roles--and then, still as the Doctor, Cop, and Vig, be modified as the Scum Doctor, Scum Cop, and scum Vig, to be revised as needed to make them be balanced.

So Ivan is probably truthfully claiming with the parity cop.

But lying by omission by leaving out the extras of the role. Rolecopping both individuals, roleblocking both individuals, redirecting/busdriving/something else both individuals, there's any number of hidden modifications to the role you can make where scum has incentive to use it.

This is literally how the roles were designed.

Literally. every. player. Got a town role.

That includes Ivan.

This town role was then modified based on the alignment of the player.

Thus: Ivan wouldn't be lying about his role, he would be truthfully claiming the

town part

of the role, but leaving out the

scum

part.

This is, what, the third time I've had to explain this concept?

Read the fucking game mechanics.

It's not that hard to grasp.

EVERY player got a town role. Which means Ivan has a realclaim/safeclaim from the mods of a real town role.

Said town role, a realclaim/safeclaim, was then modified based on the alignment of the player receiving it.

And thus, Ivan isn't going to be lying

directly

. Ivan is going to be lying

by omission

. By leaving out the scum part of the role.

This feels counter intuitive, to just believe him while calling him "lockscum."

I'm calling Ivan lockscum only

in part

due to the role.

It's always been a play-based read. The roleclaim accounts for 25% of the reason Ivan is scum; play is legitimately 75% of why Ivan is scum.

Why did you jump to that being real?

Because I'm apparently the only player who read the fucking game mechanics as shown by literally nobody understanding me here.

[mastina]

And also, if you believe he could not choose his targets, how does that affect your thoughts on LLD not being killed?

It strengthens the reasons for Ivan being scum.

If Ivan couldn't choose his targets, he still got to know the targets N1.

Knowing the targets N1 and that he couldn't select them, he has a dilemma: kill LLD and lose the benefit of his role, or let LLD live in spite of how she's one of the most obvtown players in the game with the strength to push a read through and has reasonably high accuracy in her reads.

The latter has a much higher benefit than the former especially depending on what scum part of the role Ivan isn't claiming and especially if Ivan comes up with the idea of pocketing LLD in the neighborhood.

I am convinced that it is possible for the claimed roles to coexist, therefore he is no longer lock scum.

Every

role in this game has the potential to coexist as an alignment. You could have three town cop-type roles or three scum cop-type roles or six cop-type roles shared between town and scum.

Because of the game mechanic where every role is designed initially as a town role, and then adjusted to accommodate for balance. Scum roles are going to have the town role and then have an additional scum aspect to them to bolster their strength to account for the town's strength; town roles would either remain the same if the setup is balanced, or get buffed if the setup is scumsided, or far more likely, be nerfed to be weaker.

You can see that in full effect with my role. I'm an incredibly gated messenger with an incredibly gated town crier. I can post messages only after N3 publicly and have only 3 shots of that ability but all of my messages are limited to 100 characters. It's as weak as weak roles can get, which means that my role was definitely nerfed from the initial balance. Maybe it was an ungated messenger with a lower crier requirement, or maybe it was a friendly neighbor in addition to the messenger, with the crier being an IC. (Say my role was initially friendly neighbor with 100 character limit and after 3 uses, could become a crier/IC.) You'll have to wait for the mod thread to see the postgame nerfs they made but I imagine I'm onpoint with what they did.

But I digress. My

point

here, is that Ivan's claim can be real here and be town, sure--but it feels too strong to be a real town role given what we have claimed even given jjh as a 3p here. More than that, Ivan is scum by play.

This is a game literally designed, per the mods, to be solved by dayplay not by roleclaims. Because every player was assigned a town role to begin with, it is designed so that scum can truthfully claim and that the town must use play to figure out the town from the scum.

And Ivan is scum by play. If you want that case on PLAY, you can read my fucking iso because I have a feeling folks aren't doing that because I've been explaining myself multiple times here.

[mastina]

I don’t have a good read on them currently. I need to look into them for sure before having something definite there.

As it so happens, I have a flowchart for reading me.

I can also fairly quickly track down all of my scumgames for the last three years as well as showing a few of the towngames.

Going from saying I am lock scum, to then seeing me and Ivan in a 1 v 1 and siding with me felt weird.

Oh my scumread on you didn't go away. I'm still scumreading you by play--it's just that you are pushing SirCakez as scum and you also entered into a 1v1 with Ivan so unless you double-bussed and orchestrated a 1v1, you're not scum with both of them.

In contrast?

Ivan and SirCakez have been buddy-buddy the entire time. (I've shown this before in my iso but if you're going to be a lazy fuck I can show it to you again because it's pretty damn transparently obvious that they are scumbuddies here.)

You've pushed both Ivan and SirCakez; Ivan and SirCakez have, consistently, defended each other as well as voting together on Suripoko. (As you yourself noted, for Suripoko to be scum requires literally all of your scumreads to be wrong. You can't apply that sentiment to your reads without also applying them to mine.)

You've done a bunch of scummy shit. This push on me among them and your inconsistencies are a plenty.

But you also are far less of a fit for scum compared to Ivan and SirCakez.

I don't see a world in which Ivan or SirCakez are ever town. Their play just isn't.

It's very very glim, distant, kinda hazy, but I can at least

see

town in you. It doesn't look like it's real, but I can at least see glimmers of what could

potentially

be town indicators.

No town indicators for Ivan/SirCakez, both of them being obvscum, Ivan's claim being a scum claim, your play doesn't fit as well as a scumbuddy, your claim feels more honest (if you were scum then the commute would be a scum ability so I find it less likely for you to be scum since if you were scum it's not optimal to claim that), and I can at least

see

the

potential

for you to be town. (Vaguely.)

[That Idiot Ivan]

And thus, Ivan isn't going to be lying directly. Ivan is going to be lying by omission. By leaving out the scum part of the role.

Let's have a look-see here, who's doing that again?

Anyone who thinks mastina actually got a 100 character messenger role as her only real power, raise your hand. Look at the flipped roles, look at the other claims on the table. Then look at that. One of these things is not like the others...

Also note that whatever new information I brought to the table (and also note that nothing I claimed was ever a lie or retracted; I just only claimed what town needed to know off the bat to optimize information from reactions) wasn't ever actually used to reevaluate her stance. She had a push, and nothing was going to change her mind. Even if she had to claim to believe I'd pocketed LLD.

I'll take another show of hands from anyone in this game who thinks they could pocket LLD.

This post has been brought to you by another 'O' word, obdurate.

Until tomorrow.

[morph the cat]

Vote Count 2-5

Suripoko

(3): SirCakez, Rogue, T3

SirCakez

(2): jjh927, mastina

mastina

(2): Lady Lambdadelta, That Idiot Ivan

T3

(1): The Bombay

Rogue

(1): StrangeMatter

That Idiot Ivan

(1): Suripoko

Not Voting

(1): Shiro

Plurality Rules are in Effect

Deadline: January 17, 1:00 PM US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-01-17 10:00:00)

Mod Notes:

SirCakez is v/la until 1/17
-

[Shiro]

I dont believe for a second that a role based on Ashe is just a messenger

Mainly because it doesn't fit at all. And since I am also a League character and have first hand info on how they designed roles based on said champions abbilities. I highly doubt that what they thought would be appropriate for Ashe.

Vote:Mastina

[jjh927]

Shiro, box?

[Shiro]

Nope sorry

[Shiro]

For anyone that didn't guess btw, I am Yuumi

[Shiro]

Or well r/Yuumimains

[The Bombay]

If T3 lets this day phase end without explaining the chess game, my vote will never leave him Day 3.

Spoiler:

This choice has not been approved by Marci.

@Mastina, I read your point about the roles being designed, and I still did not think it made sense. As someone who has doubted Ivan's claim, and given his flavor claim, is that parts of the claim were real. My expectation for the scum role has been that he really does make the PT, that he has no access to it during the night phase, but can join at the start of the day. And then

maybe,

but not necessarily, he has a list of 1 shot abilities, but that list would not include parity cop. And, even if it did, he would not have chosen to use it.

It feels like you are using that line by the mods to say that "confirmed scum" Ivan would never have a reason to lie about any part of his role.

VOTE: Mastina

The Ivan, LLD, Shiro voting block does not look like they want to go in with me on Cakez or T3, and this is fine.

[jjh927]

Nope sorry

Oh dear

That means that two people lied

[jjh927]

Anyone who thinks mastina actually got a 100 character messenger role as her only real power, raise your hand.

Me

As a general rule, Mastina doesn't lie about her role.

[The Bombay]

UNVOTE:
Marci wants us to move back to T3.

I'm going to give us a chance to synch before we vote again.

[jjh927]

I'm particularly annoyed that some people seem to think they can get away with not acknowledging we're doing massclaim because of how soon deadline is

[T3]

catchup in 30 mins

[StrangeMatter]

My flavor is r/PoppyMains (How did so many of us pick League characters?) and I really didn't want to claim at this point for a few reasons such as people have thrown around a scum roleblocker a lot, and people are going to abuse this claim into throwing massive amounts of shade onto it.

I'm a jail keeper with a hammer ability special where I block indirect kills if I hammer scum. I blocked Bombay, annoyingly that would've been the one slot I shouldn't have blocked but oh well. However, I do think he could be town based off what he said early into Day 2 that he got roleblocked but I'm still somewhat debating to myself whether or not scum does this intentionally or not with the players in that hydra specifically.