Mini 2254 | Subreddit uPick | Fin

[StrangeMatter]

we can do T3 idgaf

You should gaf.

And Bombay, I didn't make anyone bulletproof. I bodyguarded.

sorry my WIM for this game is just so dead because I'm frustrated with my role and was hoping somebody would be able to help me figure it out but no one did and I'm lowkey kinda annoyed I'm still a suspect after Suri went in trying to kill me yesterday

I disagree. From what I remember of seeing content from Suripoko, they were accusing nearly everyone on their wagon so unlike another game where I pointed out an obvious TMI on a very specific slot, this comment makes very little sense to me.

[That Idiot Ivan]

Consider my vote on Rogue. notscience is MIA, Mala came in with an off the wall post, and neither has shown any interest in solving anything this game day.

mastina, your analysis combines your reasons for scum reading each individual as teams for the most part and mostly ignores how people justified their votes on Suripoko or elsewhere. T3 is didn't spew a claim and didn't townread you.
Cakez didn't spew a claim, looks like scum, apparently defended me, and had too much info? Rogue isn't defending you.

Aside from linking me to Cakez in your claim we defended one another and that we had TMI, there's no analysis of these as teams. Does it change your opinion that I had TMI if I tell you I was a player in both the games I cited where Pooky quickhammered as scum?

And by your analysis, there are three players who should "know" this is your towngame, and yet none of us do? (Counting notscience, T3, and me here). We can't all be scum.

What's your current take on Rogue, both how they jumped on Suripoko and their discussion of that elimination today?

[SirCakez]

Spoiler:

VOTE: suripoko
Here I'll vote this for that shitty hammer

VOTE: SirCakez

Dwlee99 (5): Lady Lambdadelta, T3, mastina, SirCakez, Shiro

@pooky can I get your read on me. It sounded like you wanted to hammer me

You can't blame people on a wagon for not knowing that someone was going to quickhammer too early. That's ridiculous.

the suri lim is 100% the right play here

school has been hell but i might post more tmrw or on the weekend

Suripoko is obviously scum here let's get rid of them first step

what is the motivation for Ivan to fakeclaim as scum here? it does nothing for them

im caught up I just want to murder Suri and go from there
i feel like this game is easier than we are thinking

I think it's interesting the amount of people who have entirely glossed over that hammer.

VOTE: Kuripoko

ninja-
hi mala!

Its an awful fucking hammer?

And this is coming from the genius behind the pokemon quickhammer.

I’m of two minds about T3, because I do agree that scum likely was playing against town in the chess game. But whenever I go “uhhhh….” At T3 posting he flips town. Yes this is a hedge I’m aware and it’s why I qualified with it when I said “I’m of two minds”

I think it’s kinda bordering on what I can believe that town would be able to stop the town cop from firing?

I think assuming Pooky will or won't do pretty much anything as any alignment is a fool's take.

The hammer was beyond a bad play. This isn't a case of some new player ignorantly quick hammering. Suripoko are making very deliberate choices here. They started out with a gimmick to avoid having to go on record with any actual arguments. Then they quick hammered the first wagon they could. They're taking refuge in charm, amusement value, and audacity.

This isn't town behavior. Pooky will quickhammer a wagon, sure--as scum.

My gut is telling me to move to Mastina but I don't trust it anymore after pokemon

Post claim she seems a Lil more like scum Mastina
More manipulative, less crazy bullshit that nobody understand

Suripoko (4): SirCakez, Rogue, T3, Shiro

VOTE: SirCakez

[That Idiot Ivan]

Personally, I'm more interested in how folks went after Pooky than vice versa. This reads more as Pooky, agent of chaos! than Pooky, mastermind! to me, given he started out trolling with his crappy paint pics in lieu of posting. Toddler flinging paint or Pollack at work? It looks the same, and we waste a lot more time if we assume it's Pollack here.

[morph the cat]

Rogue has been prodded.

[StrangeMatter]

Spoiler:

VOTE: suripoko
Here I'll vote this for that shitty hammer

VOTE: SirCakez

Dwlee99 (5): Lady Lambdadelta, T3, mastina, SirCakez, Shiro

@pooky can I get your read on me. It sounded like you wanted to hammer me

You can't blame people on a wagon for not knowing that someone was going to quickhammer too early. That's ridiculous.

the suri lim is 100% the right play here

school has been hell but i might post more tmrw or on the weekend

Suripoko is obviously scum here let's get rid of them first step

what is the motivation for Ivan to fakeclaim as scum here? it does nothing for them

im caught up I just want to murder Suri and go from there
i feel like this game is easier than we are thinking

I think it's interesting the amount of people who have entirely glossed over that hammer.

VOTE: Kuripoko

ninja-
hi mala!

Its an awful fucking hammer?

And this is coming from the genius behind the pokemon quickhammer.

I’m of two minds about T3, because I do agree that scum likely was playing against town in the chess game. But whenever I go “uhhhh….” At T3 posting he flips town. Yes this is a hedge I’m aware and it’s why I qualified with it when I said “I’m of two minds”

I think it’s kinda bordering on what I can believe that town would be able to stop the town cop from firing?

I think assuming Pooky will or won't do pretty much anything as any alignment is a fool's take.

The hammer was beyond a bad play. This isn't a case of some new player ignorantly quick hammering. Suripoko are making very deliberate choices here. They started out with a gimmick to avoid having to go on record with any actual arguments. Then they quick hammered the first wagon they could. They're taking refuge in charm, amusement value, and audacity.

This isn't town behavior. Pooky will quickhammer a wagon, sure--as scum.

My gut is telling me to move to Mastina but I don't trust it anymore after pokemon

Post claim she seems a Lil more like scum Mastina
More manipulative, less crazy bullshit that nobody understand

Suripoko (4): SirCakez, Rogue, T3, Shiro

VOTE: SirCakez

Looking at this it just reads as if you’re focusing in on only the posts about you rather than the fact in #984 they quoted every single person on their wagon and accused them of being Mafia using them as a scapegoat. However I will admit that they have been pushing you SirCakez, but it doesn’t read like a lot of TMI pushes I’ve personally seen.

[SirCakez]

Yeah they did accuse a lot of people but I feel like I was the primary person they were after given their voting of me twice up to Road
It's not a super important point anyways it's just something that was annoying me but also like I understand it's not an end all reason to TR me

[That Idiot Ivan]

Cakez, I'm down to the point of Rogue > you > mastina. I am however willing to switch to you to make sure we get an elim through if I can't rally a Rogue wagon.

I'd also suggest that if your role really is gated in some way, give us anything you can to help us get you active. 'I know nothing except it activates somehow' clearly isn't giving anyone anything to work with.

Also, so it's on record, the third neighbor today is StrangeMatter. I mention that because I'd like to give them the option of getting their claimed poison protection, and we'll likely be coordinating a hammer in the neighborhood toward that goal when the time comes. Which becomes relevant at E-2.

[SirCakez]

I LITERALLY DONT KNOW ANYTHING
ALL MY ROLE SAYS IS I HAVE ABILITIES I DONT KNOW ABOUT AND I WILL BE TOLD WHEN THEY ACTIVATE

[SirCakez]

Earth to anyone?

[That Idiot Ivan]

MOD: if a player had a strongmanned action, and a loyal modifier to that action, and they targeted someone of a different alignment, would the Strongman cause the action to succeed or would the Loyal cause the action to fail?

12. If you have a question, please PM us. If a question is something that should be answered publicly, we will make a post addressing it without naming who asked it.

They won't answer in-thread. They will answer this if you ask them privately, as I did. I invite anyone wondering about this to make their own inquiries; don't take my word for it.

[That Idiot Ivan]

Earth to anyone?

I have nothing until Rogue slinks back in here.

[That Idiot Ivan]

Actually, that's not quite true.

mastina, how come you've spent so much time in your discussion of me talking about how I'm manipulating and pocketing LLD...and yet you've never asked LLD outright if she thinks I'm posting in the neighborhoods in a way that's meant to pocket her? Or asked Shiro yesterday or today what her opinion is?

Why do you keep talking about how skilled LLD is, and yet you assume she'd fall prey to a neighborhood pocketing from someone whose main she didn't know until recently? For all you know I'm spending my time in there writing super-trite Ross/Rachel fanfic.

[mastina]

VOTE: mastina

VOTE: SirCakez

Yeah SirCakez is scum here.

If he were town then he wouldn't be just accepting the logic there while ignoring how he has all the information to know that I am town. He would be thinking about the flaws in it, thinking about alternatives, and thinking about things in terms of reads. With the analysis augmenting reads.

The two have been hard-defending each other the entire game,

ummm this has literally not happened this game

Except it has.

I can give the receipts to prove it, and on prior days already partially did.

It's literally happening right now with Ivan not voting you. He literally prefers Rogue over voting you. Yes, he has you in his PoE (which is probably lip service to appease LLD), but he's zero desire to follow through on it and actually

vote

you. He'll vote you if not doing so would be a scumclaim, but otherwise, his lack of interest in wagoning you is apparent and has been the whole damn game.

[mastina]

mastina, your analysis combines your reasons for scum reading each individual as teams for the most part and mostly ignores how people justified their votes on Suripoko or elsewhere.

What part of "I haven't finished it", "I need more time", "I'm working on it", "it's incomplete", etc., was unclear to you Ivan?

'Cause I made it pretty damn clear that my analysis was unfinished. You literally fucking told me to post it in spite of me having said it wasn't done. So you get analysis that, surprise surprise, isn't finished, isn't complete.

It's not that I ignored people's justifications for their votes.

It's that I haven't yet had the time to check those out and refine the analysis from that. It was my starting point. It was not intended to be the final form, the final version. It was not intended to be the end-all be-all of my contributions. It was a rough draft. I don't have a final draft yet, but

you fucking asked me to post what I had

, and what I had was an unfinished draft.

T3 is didn't spew a claim and didn't townread you.

Yes, exactly.

T3 did not claim.

And more than that, T3 absolutely

should

be townreading me.

T3 has played more with me recently than any other player on mafiascum. He has seen both my towngame AND my scumgame. Beyond that? T3 is obsessed with meta'ing players. He has meta'd me in the past. In past games, T3 was able to look at my play and, with his meta knowledge, able to correctly reach the conclusion that I am town.

Here, he has gone out of his way to avoid giving a read on me. He knows that he can't say I'm scum without it being a scumclaim, and he knows that if he says I am town, it will basically prove I'm not bullshitting in that this is my towngame through and through. So the only thing he can do is what he

has

been doing, repeatedly, consistently: refusing to give a read at all.

Because it's the only option where the scum do not get put at a disadvantage.

Cakez didn't spew a claim, looks like scum, apparently defended me, and had too much info?

Yes.

And he is also in the list of players who absolutely

should

know that I am town here. SirCakez has seen both my towngame and scumgame incredibly recently. He's doing absolutely nothing he does as town. He's doing what he needs to in order to avoid being the elimination--but that's it.

Rogue isn't defending you.

Yes, which is egregious because both Malakittens and especially notscience were around (and this is especially relevant for notty) in the Pokemon game. (For the record, SirCakez was there, too, and present for the parts about notty.) Why's this so important?

Because in that game,

Spoiler: I made these posts and many more like them

Notty wants Mastina,

Notty thinks Mastina's role fits another scum player's role. Rather it compliments it. He'll have to explain it himself.

Notty can fuck off when it comes to this.
Role-wise I'm not going to say it's

impossible

for my role to be scum. It's definitely

possible

.
Creating a backup of a town role could be fairly strong if the town role is one scum could use.
But more than that, scum using one of their abilities on me could turn me into a 1x backup of their role.
Now, granted--there's a really damn confusing interaction that basically makes no sense if it were real, and that's Gypyx's role with my role.

MIRROR MOVE:

The user uses a move from the field.
◓ Once at night you may use one of your living or dead teammates move.
◓ If their move has a gated amount of uses, you will use one of their shots.
◓ You may not use a move that's uses have been depleted.
◓ You may not use one of your teammates moves the same night they are using the same move.
◓ When taking a passive move, your teammate loses any of its effects for the night of use.

If my role is real, how would Gypyx's interaction work with my role? Using my role would consume my shot, but using my role would be targeting me. Yet Gypyx can't get a copy of a move that's depleted. My role is a passive role, too, so it's a move that is simultaneously used every night, and yet no night. How would my role be classified in relationship to Gypyx's?

And then, even if I am targeted by someone and copy their move, would Mirror Move allow Gypyx to basically steal that move even though it wasn't technically my move? It's a move I copied, not a move I originally had.

These are interactions that the mod could have answers for, and if I was scum, there would be answers for them--but these are things that never got asked/addressed/etc. because there was no need...thanks to me not being scum with Gypyx.

Now, granted. You

could

argue that either scum were just so apathetic/detached/out of the game that they didn't notice, or that they did and the answers are in the scum PT and nobody shared them due to them being from the scum PT, but those add extra layers to require me to be scum, and doesn't cover the far more basic problem;

My role would be redundant with Gypyx's as Gypyx's is a better version of my role. My role requires me to be targeted by the scum player to create the copy of the move. Gypyx's can be done without being targeted and can be done even if the scum player in question is dead.

But there's more to it than that.

what do you think of Mastina using self-meta, I.e., they aren't very blame gamey as scum compared to as town mid game. Because they don't want to offend town and get exasperation voted?
Like, how likely is it that scum them makes that argument? It really doesn't feel very implausible to me. I would make similar arguments if I were pushed as scum. Or at least I think I would. If my scum game didn't suck.

I am not you. I am mastina. I operate by my own principles, rules, standards, thought processes, etc. The way I think, though not standard, is very well documented, and frankly?

Notty should remember the LAST time that I was accused of faking rage.
(Hint: I wasn't. Double hint: I was town. Triple hint, it technically wasn't the latest time I've raged as town, but it IS among the most infamous times I've raged as town. There's damn good reason that I am saying notty can fuck off, because notty SHOULD know fucking better.)

This is a search of all the games I've played in the Micro, Mini Theme, and Large Theme forums.

The last time I was accused of faking rage was in this game. (As a reminder: I

ate a ban

from that game--not fake. Also not scum. I was town.) It is not actually the game that notty would be familiar with.
Honorable mention: MBOS 4 I ate a warning. Not a ban but also not fake. And also not scum; I was town. I don't expect notty to be familiar with it tho.

I was also accused of faking rage in this game as well. I was town. But that's not the game notty should know I don't fucking fake rage from.

The most infamous example of me being accused of raging as scum?

Tales of You.

I refuse to believe that notty has forgotten one of the most infamous fucking games of all time. It's literally one of THE most iconic (in many bad ways) mafia games OF ALL TIME.

Did notty erase the memory of the town's incompetence that notty contributed to by eliminating the players with the highest read accuracy, myself included, that game?

Because I sure as fuck remember it.

The rage very much was there.

And very much was real.

And very much from town.

The closest I've ever gotten to raging as scum I'm pretty sure was Anything (fucking) Goes, and that was entirely different in tone, nature, etc. and largely with the help of my hydra buddy who was doing the VAST majority of the posting that game. Like, maybe 5% of the hydra's posts were mine? But it was mostly Katsuki.

Do you know what the biggest tell on my bloody flowchart is? The tell that is, above all tells, the tell that has the

absolute highest accuracy rate

of ANY of the items on the flowchart listed here?

It's quite literally, scumastina cannot rage, but town mastina can and does, to a dangerous, I-never-know-if-I-might-eat-a-game-ban levels of vitriol.

she insults people more as town (increasing the strength of related towntells), and she rages more as town (increasing the strength of that towntell)

I've explained the reasons for this across multiple games. I can track it down both as scum and town and in Mafia Discussion, but it's more than just my philosophy on playing scum involves "don't make enemies. You need the town to like you, because push come to shove if the choices are to eliminate a player people like versus eliminate a player people have issues with, they'll usually take the latter". It's more than that being the optimal play. It's more than just thinking that scum need to manipulate the town into being their allies, rather than antagonize them and make them enemies.

While that's all true, there's a bigger reason I cannot rage as scum.

Fuck theory.

I can subvert theory all I want.

The reason I can't rage as scum is because

I fundamentally cannot think that way as scum

.
How can I be angry at the town being correct on me?

I can, and do, get mad at players being "Right, For the Wrong Reasons".
It'd take some time to find, but I can track down being angry at players being right in their read but wrong in the reason and me being scum in that game.
Because that's genuine anger at a very real cause: an attack on the very principles I operate on.

For instance, saying I'd lie about real life circumstances to gain an advantage as scum (which people have done to me) is tantamount to outright accusing me of cheating, of lying, of being a rl scumbag, of going against the very things I stand for as a person and a player. It is questioning my integrity as an individual, it is doubting my principles and accusing me of being in violation of them.

Because I have VERY strong principles I operate on. These are not trust tells because they apply regardless of alignment. These are things that I fundamentally operate on as beyond just being a player, but being a person. A core aspect of my character. I have my own set of rules and regulations and principles. They largely align with the site, but I have some rules the site does not. (And at times, have violated rules that aren't violations to me but which the site considers to be.)

That

I can do.

But being accused of being scum for reasons that I know are more right than wrong or outright correct?

I literally

cannot

manage to be angry at that. After all--it's an accusation I know is right. It's an accusation that I see where they're coming from, know why they are seeing it, and while it can be frustrating that they are right, they're still RIGHT, I KNOW they're right, and

cannot

get angry at them.

I also cannot really get mad at the town for mislimming a townread of mine when I am scum--unless said town goes on to violate my principles, at least. Showing disrespect to the dead, blaming the dead exclusively and saying it's entirely their fault, etc. Things like that, I can get mad at the town for because it's genuinely honestly fucking disgusting.

But if the town

isn't

violating my principles with a mislim.

I can't get angry at it.

Because, again, as scum, I am genuinely more in the mindset of, "Girls Giggles Genocide". (Again, don't expect any living player to get that reference, but Gamma Emerald should.)
Which is, to say: I laugh my ass off as scum.

I might loathe drawing scum, but I still have a blast in it. I HATE being scum, but I still make the most out of being scum by basically hamming it up and loving the grandiose nature of having all the info and watching the town eat itself alive because they don't. Like the Among Us players the term originates from, as scum, I love playing the part of the villain, watching the town accuse each other, and laughing at the events going on with my extra knowledge.

So how can I get angry at the town furthering my own wincon? Town eliminating town is literally helping me.

I fundamentally

cannot

be genuinely angry, nor can I fake rage.



But I can go even further in showing why I am not scum.


If I am scum, there's two optimal usages of my role.
1: Not announcing it at all, and then having a scumbuddy silently target me with an ability to make me a backup of the scum with that ability, so that it catches the town off-guard.
2: Announcing it deliberately, and then avoiding having scum target me at all, hoping to pick up a useful town ability.

Neither strategy is necessarily more optimal than the other, but the two above are mutually exclusive. If you do one, you cannot do the other and have it be optimal; mixing the two is literally the

worst

thing you can do.

That said, option #1 is imo slightly stronger and more optimal.

You can argue that, me being mastina, I opted for option #2. I either didn't think of option #1 until after the fact, or considered option #2 to be better for towncred.

But then that runs into a problem: Dwlee targeted me N1.

Mixing town and scum targeting me is the exact worst possible combo, because it means I don't get a guaranteed copy of the scum role and the scum role that

should

be used elsewhere is being wasted on me instead of on others. Especially with certain town/scum role combos.

At this stage, for me to be scum, you need a lot of Coulds already to add up:
I COULD be a redundant scum role, when Gypyx's is a better version of mine.
I COULD have a role that has the really weird interactions with Gypyx's role while on the same team as Gypyx.
I COULD have the answers to these interactions in the scum PT and/or I COULD have been apathetic enough to have never asked about the interaction (in spite of it being mandatory for the mod, unless you want to argue that the mod COULD have not thought about the interaction and thus needed to improvise).
I COULD have not realized the optimal strategy was not claiming and/or I COULD have decided that the second strategy was overall more worth it.
I COULD have then had my entire scumteam not realize mixing the two strategies is the worst possible idea and that we needed to commit to one or the other and not mix-and-match. It COULD happen, in spite of the scumteam having imaginality (mechanics-focused), Gypyx (not a slouch on mechanics), me (very good at mechanics), and Woolax (decent at mechanics).

But then we get into D1.

I COULD have had an abnormal readslist for scumastina. (I have more to say about that, it was something I half-wrote but am probably going to save for a different post on a different day due to how much time this is taking and my tiredness levels.)
I COULD have had no scum north of null at all, and soft-distanced from the scum.

VOTE: woolax

For the record: I support the Woolax wagon and am incredibly tempted to vote there as I think the slot is scum.

But I kinda just wanna keep my vanity vote on SirCakez right now just as a statement that, no, I'm not joking with my scumread there; yes, I am serious; yes I think he is scum; yes I want to eliminate him.

But while that's all true, Woolax is also probably just scum so isn't a bad vote. In fact is explicitly a good vote that I support.

If the Woolax wagon were to die down in fact, I WOULD switch my vote there just to make sure it DIDN'T because I don't think the Woolax wagon SHOULD die down, I legit think that the Woolax wagon is probably the best wagon we can get today.

I'm just being stubborn and feel like my vote is best used elsewhere right now.

I COULD make this post as scum, as a way of distancing on Woolax without committing to the bus on them.
I should note however that while it'd take me time to locate, I've made this post in many many towngames of mine but absolutely ZERO scumgames of mine.
I COULD have this as my first scumgame where I used this tactic.

Mastina vote Dwelee, thanks.

How about we

don't

vote the player who I think is so conftown that if someone claimed a guilty on them I'd vote the person claiming the guilty?

Dwlee's my strongest townread.

I COULD make this post as scum to hard-commit to defending my scumbuddy, in spite of the guilty on them.
I COULD make this statement as scum in spite of it being

another

statement I've said in multiple towngames (again, could track down, but would take some time) yet never have said in any scumgame ever.
I COULD genuinely try to save my scumbuddy there.
I COULD have set up the interactions where I fake soft-picking up on Dwlee's role/actions.
I COULD fake not knowing that Dwlee wasn't the role I got, and/or genuinely make the mistake of not realizing it wasn't Dwlee's action I got.
I COULD retract my defense of Dwlee and hard-commit to the bus after it was clear that Dwlee was in fact guilty.
I COULD have pushed imaginality before there was pressure on imaginality.
I COULD have pushed imaginality on POE instead of more damning aspects.
I COULD have pushed imaginality on the Pooky push from him, instead of the shit roleclaim.
I COULD have faked not noticing his roleclaim. Or I COULD have genuinely not noticed it.
I COULD have then, after seeing things, not tried to save imaginality and backed up the town eliminating there.

And there's another thing:

Callout:
What the fuck, guys.

Unless the mods failed to notify me (I did ask them about this to be sure), literally nobody targeted me? Like. I literally TOLD y'all that I can duplicate a power if targeted by it. But as far as I can tell, literally nobody did.

Y'all are Dragon Tails / Circle Throwers / Whirlwinds in reverse. (I hope the intended meaning comes through.) I wasn't lying about my role so I do mean it; you SHOULD be targeting me if you have a strong role.

(That said, I suppose it's possible Gypyx targeted me and his role prevents me from using my role but oh well, only the mods know.)

I COULD have genuinely not received the info as scum that I should have received, but more than that, check out the bolded.
Story time: I was skimming the flips. I wasn't on my phone but I think that I was in a rush?

I actually thought Gypyx had flipped town at first.

I initially read Gypyx's flip as being a member of the town.

I didn't realize that Gypyx was a member of Team Rocket, so I read his role and I thought he was town with it when I made this post.

No, seriously.

Nobody noticed this the entire game apparently. I was expecting with us being down to one scum or so for someone to look at this and go "did mastina scumslip here by mentioning Gypyx interacting with her role when Gypyx was scum and his role couldn't interact with town?". But actually it's the opposite; I genuinely townslipped here hard by having initially misread Gypyx's flip as being town. I was confused when people mentioned Gypyx being a good Vig because I legit initially thought that Gypyx was a town modified UB, and it wasn't until some time later that I went back to reread and realized I had misread and that Gypyx was scum, not town, as I had initially mistakenly thought.

So I COULD be scum who is bullshitting this townslip.
I COULD be scum who genuinely scumslipped there.

And beyond that.

I COULD have executed on my "when everyone looks town, SOMEONE needs to not be town" philosophy--but I will say that I've had dozens of towngames where I have pushed that philosophy and pushed eliminations based off of it (including on big town players like Battle Mage and Lady Lambdadelta--probably most infamously, Team Mafia 2021 this year had me espousing this philosophy on D1)...
...And I've never once pushed for an elimination based off of that philosophy as scum.
"But wait, mastina...didn't you use it in Chrono Trigger?"
Well, actually--no. I didn't. I

outlined

my philosophy there. I laid out the actual methods I use as town--but if you read the game, I didn't push anyone using that philosophy. I MENTIONED the philosophy. I OUTLINED the philosophy. To this day, that game is actually probably the best explanation of what boils down to "everyone looks town, but SOMEONE needs to not be, so treat it appropriately and doubt all the town" basically. But while I

explained

the philosophy, I never

used

it that game.

This game COULD be the first scumgame that I did so.

And that's aside from the additional things I've gone into since then.
I COULD have had an insane boost in my postcount compared to my normal scumgame.
I COULD have phoneposted at work in spite of the fact that I never have done so as scum before.
I COULD have somehow faked rage. (Well no, not really, I really can't.)

I COULD have magically somehow upped the quality of my scumgame, to have it be higher than even peak scumastina performance levels, in spite of the fact that I've been in a scum slump for literally three years.

And this is probably not even all of the COULDs.

I've probably got more things that I could point out that are town-me and not scumastina, which add to the list of COULDs.

But how many COULDs does it take you before you begin to realize that any theory with me as scum is a violation of Occam's Razor never before seen in its absurdity? (Well aside from maybe the absurd accusations of me being scum in games like the two Jingle games because those were equally horseshit Occam's Razor violations.)

One or two COULDs could be true.

But how many COULDs does it take before the 'could' becomes 'basically impossible'? I counted ~30-35 COULDs added up in the above.

So how many COULDs does it take to clear me from being scum?

Those 2 scums being in the dead center of Mastina's reads though.

I mean, that was explicitly the null zone--I had no scum north of null! I just had a LOT of nulls at that point in time because I was ~struggling~.

given they haven't had much luck with their scum approach maybe they chose a more traditional scum reads list.

Oi!

My approach as scum, I'll have you know, is

very

effective!
It does precisely what I design it to do.
1: It hides who my scumbuddies are when I flip scum.
2: It makes town players look like my scumbuddies when I flip scum.
3: It makes reading my iso a waste of time, because I don't spew scumbuddies as scum or town as town, and usually, this is mutual with the people who pushed/defended me not being spewed as town/scum from their positions on me.
4: It makes me look town enough that I am usually not the first elimination in the game, making me

just

town enough to not be seen as the best D1 elimination.

I achieve all four of these in basically every scumgame that I play!

Now, granted!

You are correct about one thing: I have

shit

luck as scum.
If my entire scumteam save me botches their fakeclaims, it aint gonna go well for me down the line because step four keeps me alive only temporarily. (The average modern-scumastina death time is D3.)
If I deliberately sacc myself on D1 because my scumbuddy was the counterwagon to me and I'm a goon compared to my scumbuddy being a PR, and then after I die to saccing myself said scumbuddy is eliminated anyway (and not because of failing steps 1-3, because the players eliminating said scumbuddy ignored interactions altogether and just voted the player who looked most scum by play, interactions be damned), then it aint gonna go well for my team down the line because my death was in vain.

But like.

Those aren't things that I, personally, can control. I can't do anything about it. I can't influence factors like that.

So like.
I keep doing it anyway because why wouldn't I? It does precisely what it is designed to do, and does it

damn

well.

scumastina might be night to my day, but in spite of how painfully obvscum I am as scum, I

still

use the same strategies time and time and time and time again as scum...because they still

work

at doing

exactly

what they are designed to do.
What they are designed to do is also fairly effective at helping my team, too!
But, well, it DOES run afoul of, as you said it: bad luck. The strategy is fairly effective but it's not foolproof so with bad luck, it's still loss after loss after loss. (Granted. It isn't all luck, obviously. I'm shit at scum now compared to peak scumastina. My strategy keeps me from being complete deadweight but I am NOT good at scum right now. Being unable to endgame means that my scumteam fundamentally needs to plan for my inevitable pre-endgame death which is a disadvantage. I manage to work with said handicap quite well, but like...is a stopgap measure obv.)

Lacking bad luck tho, you'd be surprised how often it still works. The four goals I want to achieve in my scumgame can and

have

gotten me scum wins, even after I entered my scum funk! (Animals UPick is probably the most prominent example, or at least the example that most immediately comes to my mind. I wasn't the D1 elimination, and after I did die, I didn't spew my scumbuddies as scum and didn't spew town as town and my scumbuddy did win the game in the end. This, in spite of the fact that I put in absolutely zero effort to disguise it being my scumgame. Like, I was, to use the term, openwolfing; I was blatantly scum with zero attempts made to appear as anything but. Still worked tho because my scum strategy, while not as good as peak scumastina, works well enough.)

It's not every game but it's not like scumastina has a 0% winrate these days. It's probably like 33-40% if I had to guess. (I dunno, would have to look at all post-funk scumgames and do the W/L ratio there, which is :effort: best spent elsewhere.)

Please don't post at work.

-Bell

Stop saying that I could be scum for bullshit reasons and maybe I'll have less reason to.

This is literally me at my most active.

And scumastina is many things, but active is not among them.

That's been true even before my scum ability tanked. I was closer in levels to my town self, but both in the amount amount and type, I had obvious scumtells.

This is true. I don't know where you got the fuel for this if you're scum this game, given you've been disappointing yourself for about a year(?) now?

-Bell

Three years, actually.

I posted in GD about it, would need to check the dates there to find out.

I literally never do more
Than what I am now.

I've, what? Nearly 200 posts in the game?

I'd be at half that AT MOST if scum.

Sure, I don't have 400+ posts, but I am doing the most I can given the circumstances.

As for voting you?

Half because BOTH heads should fucking know that I am town here. This isn't your first game with me; you've literally both had dozens.

I wanted to add tho:

Scumastina has ~20-50 posts per game. Stretch amount, MAYBE 75.

Town me averages ~100-300, with the lowest being 75.

I am not you.
I am mastina.
I operate by my own principles, rules, standards, thought processes, etc.
The way I think, though not standard, is very well documented, and frankly?

North should remember the LAST time that I was accused of faking rage.

Notty tells me that Mastina always claims their role day 1.
Or something, or has done it as scum in the past.
Mastina, as a categorical self-examiner, what say you to this maybe half-remembered charge?

-Bell

I claim my role at the time that I see it most appropriate to do so.
I can softclaim at the time I see fit to.
I can exaggerate, obfuscate, lie by omission, or even tell a self explanatory lie (e.g. maco <-> BP), and I get roles I do that on D1 quite often.

I WILL say tho that I never* fakeclaim as scum tho.

*can go into this, but really outta time

Am going up second, so got an extra half hour.

The asterisk is because technically, I HAVE, it's just that one game taught me to never again do it, and the one and only other time I did, it was my only option to win, and was done in lylo after I had the entire towns info to craft my own.

Generally speaking, it's not that I refuse to fakeclaim. I just genuinely think that my best chance at winning is honesty, so I never fakeclaim as scum, because I can't back up a fakeclaim convincingly.

If I claim something, it needs to be obvious to others that it's true.

Now, this policy doesn't hold for town me, since I can and do gambit. The Mason Gambit is the OTHER Mastina Gambit. (Self-voting to either take out a scum or protect a town being the og mastina gambit.)

But obviously, that's of little relevance.

I'll be returning to my claim when I get back home to address 5960/5961, but at work, this is as much as I can go into it.

notscience saw me make those posts and should have calibrated his gauge on my towngame from them.
Malakittens saw me make those posts and should have calibrated her gauge on my towngame from them.
SirCakez saw me make those posts and should have calibrated his gauge on my towngame from them.

So none of them calling me town here is in fact: hugely fucking suspect, yes.

Does it change your opinion that I had TMI if I tell you I was a player in both the games I cited where Pooky quickhammered as scum?

That would require me to have actually read the games where Pooky quickhammered as scum when frankly I don't read games I'm not in unless I'm a reviewer of them and even then I only skim.

I realize the games were linked.

I just didn't click them.

And by your analysis, there are three players who should "know" this is your towngame, and yet none of us do? (Counting notscience, T3, and SirCakez here). We can't all be scum.

(slight fix as I am not counting you, it's SC.) Oh I'm aware that not everyone who should know this is my towngame can be scum.

Fuck, even LLD should know that this is my towngame. LLD has seen my towngame and my scumgame more than almost any player in recent history. (Only T3 exceeds her pretty sure.) She's seen my scumgame like three times or so and my towngame an equal amount. She absolutely

should

know that this is absolutely not my scumgame and yet she still fucking insists on keeping me in the PoE anyway.

And yet she's conftown set to die in spite of how she's basically gamethrowing in not realizing I'm town here.

The only reason I've not used much much much stronger language in terms of LLD here is,
1: I don't want to eat a ban (and the things I want to say to LLD's lack of townread on me very well might be banworthy), and,
2: there's already bad blood between me and LLD, I came into this game wanting to

mend

the bad blood, not make it worse, and if I said what I wanted about the fucking conftown player who has every fucking reason to fucking know I am town here not seeing that I am town, it'd do exactly that, make the bad blood worse because yes I have some VERY FUCKING STRONG WORDS I want to say about that fucking refusal to acknowledge that I am town here for whatever fucking reason.

But I digress.

My

point

here, is:

Yes, I am aware that not everyone who should fucking know that this is my scumgame, can be scum.

There's literally four of them, and one of them is conftown.

But the fact that they can't all be scum does not make their lack of saying I am obvtown any less suspect.

It means that the towns in them are fucking gamethrowing, yes!
It means that whoever is town in that group is a fucking moron because they have the knowledge/experience to know I am town, see that I am a suspect, and yet in spite of literally all their fucking experience telling them that I am town they are not defending me while I am under pressure.

But while the town players who know my meta are gamethrowing by not defending me, the scum players not defending me are playing to their wincon, so the lack of defense is still suspect from them.

What's your current take on Rogue, both how they jumped on Suripoko and their discussion of that elimination today?

Oh it's incredibly scummy.

But the thing is.

T3 is scummy; Rogue is scummy; SirCakez is scummy.

At least one is, by necessity, town, but I legit can't tell who is town in them because they're fucking all playing like scum. All of them. I don't know who the town is in them but whoever the town in there is they're literally playing the worst fucking towngame of their life because they're literally playing like scum in spite of not being scum. Because all three are basically scum in everything.

[mastina]

mastina, how come you've spent so much time in your discussion of me talking about how I'm manipulating and pocketing LLD...and yet you've never asked LLD outright if she thinks I'm posting in the neighborhoods in a way that's meant to pocket her?

Why ask what LLD has proven time and time again to be true?

The evidence is in LLD's posting.

She has, not once, given the chance of you being scum real thought.

She asked questions about why you would do what you have done if you were scum--

But after I gave good answers to that?

Answers she then ignored?

She kept her read on you anyway--because she was never going to change it. Because she was already pocketed.

If she were serious in doubting you were town, then she would have listened to the responses to her questions there and engaged further there and taken it into consideration and thought about at least the possibility.

She has not. Because she's not serious in doubting your townness; she's locked you in as town, and that's all there is to that.

Thus: pocketed.

Inherent in the nature of being pocketed is not realizing you are being pocketed, Ivan. That's self-evident.

Do you think that if I asked SirCakez "do you think you are being pocketed in the neighborhood with Pooky" in Pokemon the answer would've been anything other than 'no'? Because inherent in being pocketed is not realizing you are being pocketed, the answer to "is it possible you're being pocketed" will ALWAYS be "no".

That's pretty damn self-evident. A pocketed player won't, when asked "hey are you being pocketed?", say yes.
That's like asking a scum player "hey are you scum?".

It's a stupid-ass question and you should fucking know that.

Or asked Shiro yesterday or today what her opinion is?

Well, multiple reasons, actually.
1: Shiro is not going to die any time soon. I've all the time in the world to talk more to Shiro. (Well not quite, but you get what I mean.)
2: Shiro is not a player I expect much from. Shiro isn't a player who I really expect to be able to bounce ideas off of. Shiro isn't a player that I expect to, if I give good analysis, for her to build off of my analysis. She might might

might

be able to give me inspiration (and in fact, she did! Something Shiro said was actually why I got the starting point analysis that I intended to finish but posted the rough draft of--without Shiro, I wouldn't have made that rough draft at all in all likelihood), but she's not exactly a pillar of support.
3: Shiro is busy. And Shiro is always a low-effort, low-posting player. She posts very little and gives very little. That doesn't give me much to react off of.
4: All respects to Shiro, but my general assumption has been that Shiro has just been sheeping you/LLD in everything and has had a "brain shut off" game where she hasn't given thought to anything because of trusting you/LLD. Obviously, this could be a faulty assumption on my end and if so I owe an apology to Shiro for the insult, but if it's true, then me asking Shiro what her opinion is? Not gonna actually do much, now, would it, if her opinion is just a regurgitation of LLD's.

Why do you keep talking about how skilled LLD is, and yet you assume she'd fall prey to a neighborhood pocketing from someone whose main she didn't know until recently?

LLD is good, LLD is skilled. LLD is not a goddess of scumhunting. LLD might be Paragon-leveled in her scumhunting skills. That does not mean she is 100% accurate in her reads. She can, has, and does, make mistakes. She can, and has, townread scum strongly (and, inversely, she does push through eliminations on town that she thought were scum; we literally have proof of that from her D1 push on Dwlee).

And no player is immune to being pocketed in a neighborhood.

No player is immune to confirmation bias of being convinced a player who is scum, is town.

Not even LLD.

LLD is good. LLD is one of the best damn town players on site. LLD is probably one of the top ten scumhunters around active onsite. But LLD is not perfect. LLD is not 100% accurate. LLD makes mistakes. And neighborhoods are one of the easiest places to make mistakes on. Scum neighborhoods are disproportionately powerful.

LLD probably has an average accuracy rate of like 80-90%. But that's still a miss rate of 10-20%. And it can be higher in a specific game. LLD might have one game where she's actually in fact 100%, but the tradeoff to that is that she can have an off-day, an off-game, where she's less than 50%.

LLD's stance on you is that you're town, period. Outside of neighborhood content that she has not disclosed, her only reasons have been from your roleclaim and "why would Ivan conftown me". I've given reasons why you would conftown her as scum but she never gave them serious thought because she's made up her mind on you being town and has made up her mind that I am in the suspect pool (even though she has every fucking reason to, if she were thinking clearly, know that I am town here).

I know for a fact that LLD's read on the gamestate isn't 100% correct because if it were, then she would have me as town. Rather than inventing occam's razor violating reasons for me to not be conftown, she'd be looking at the facts and know that I can't be scum here.

This doesn't mean LLD is having an off game necessarily. If you ARE town, Ivan, then while LLD isn't 100% right, she'd be at that ~80% mark imo.

But if you are scum, Ivan, then this would be an off-game for LLD. And it's not a fucking accurate reflection of reality if you say LLD cannot have an off game. If LLD were honest with herself, and I would expect her to be in this regard, she would be the first to say that, yes, she has off games.

Now, granted, I'd expect a bit of self-delusion (bad term, sorry, can't think of a better one) in not recognizing an off-game until after the fact, after she's dead. LLD is not the kind of player I would expect to know that she's having an off game when she is having an off game. She's humble enough and honest enough to, after seeing the facts, realize, "this was an off game for me, sorry", but due to the passion behind her reads, the conviction she has behind herself (basically, she has justified confidence in her skills because she's right ~80% of the time and when you're right ~80% of the time, why would you think that you're at a lower percentage than that? You know from your extensive history that you're good, damn good, and thus have confidence in not being wrong), I genuinely don't think she

can

recognize she is having an off-game while she is still alive in the game she is having an off-game. (Similarly to Shiro here, tho, I am fully offering an apology to LLD if this assessment of her is wrong and she can recognize an off game when having an off game.)

[T3]

i never knew that dwlee was the other player.

As a result of the chess game, Dwlee should be eliminated.

"As a result of" implies you knew, or had strong reason to suspect he was a player of the game.

tbh i just realized that my logic may be a little shaky, but i think they tmi'ed something about the chess game
so i'd like dwlee to claim what he knows about the chess game.

more specifically, i think that dwlee should claim their color in the chess game.

These?? No way you "never knew that dwlee was the other player."

i suspected he was

[mastina]

i suspected he was

Serious question.

Has T3 given a single read on a player today?

I sure don't see one.

For that matter, what reads has T3 given this game?

Limming ivan is bad

Suri should die today

bombay is null town

jjh is town after a reread during the night.

As a result of the chess game, Dwlee should be eliminated.

lld is probably town?

'Cause this is all I found except going way way back to super duper early.

Not a single stated read on Rogue ("not getting townreads" is not aread).
No read on SirCakez.
Nothing on skitter.
Nothing on StrangeMatter.
Nothing on Shiro.
Nothing on me.

And even those opinions given being weak.
LLD probably town, but could bus.
Bombay nulltown, but could reassess.

You get the idea.

Why absolutely nothing said for half the players in the game and the weak-ass reads on the remainder?

[mastina]

(I admit that I lack focus right now. I have four main scumspects; by necessity, two are town; I don't know which two are town; as a result, I don't really have a focal point; I'm kinda all over the place. But yes I'm pretty damn sure both scum are in {T3, Ivan, SirCakez, Rogue}.)

[SirCakez]

VOTE: mastina

VOTE: SirCakez

Yeah SirCakez is scum here.

If he were town then he wouldn't be just accepting the logic there while ignoring how he has all the information to know that I am town. He would be thinking about the flaws in it, thinking about alternatives, and thinking about things in terms of reads. With the analysis augmenting reads.

what logic points to you being town here? you've been sat on my ass all game despite knowing that you literally always misread me which makes your push here just look like scum motivation
and you did a ton to avoid voting Suripoko yesterday

The two have been hard-defending each other the entire game,

ummm this has literally not happened this game

Except it has.

I can give the receipts to prove it, and on prior days already partially did.

It's literally happening right now with Ivan not voting you. He literally prefers Rogue over voting you. Yes, he has you in his PoE (which is probably lip service to appease LLD), but he's zero desire to follow through on it and actually

vote

you. He'll vote you if not doing so would be a scumclaim, but otherwise, his lack of interest in wagoning you is apparent and has been the whole damn game.

okay give me those receipts please
a "hard defense" is what you're claiming so lets see it

[SirCakez]

i suspected he was

Serious question.

Has T3 given a single read on a player today?

I sure don't see one.

For that matter, what reads has T3 given this game?

Limming ivan is bad

Suri should die today

bombay is null town

jjh is town after a reread during the night.

As a result of the chess game, Dwlee should be eliminated.

lld is probably town?

'Cause this is all I found except going way way back to super duper early.

Not a single stated read on Rogue ("not getting townreads" is not aread).
No read on SirCakez.
Nothing on skitter.
Nothing on StrangeMatter.
Nothing on Shiro.
Nothing on me.

And even those opinions given being weak.
LLD probably town, but could bus.
Bombay nulltown, but could reassess.

You get the idea.

Why absolutely nothing said for half the players in the game and the weak-ass reads on the remainder?

and this is the most LHF-y argument ever because T3 always plays like this
he could be scum but definitely not for this reason

[SirCakez]

in Pokemon I had a pretty strong sense that you were town that I am not getting here

[StrangeMatter]

Well, we should convene on a person to vote out at this point and I still really want Rogue out.

[That Idiot Ivan]

My question is why it seems Rogue botched their claim and then disappeared completely. And why I haven't seen a good answer for that.

[SirCakez]

I can switch to Rogue definitely their absence here is very strange