Mini Normal 2257: Polish Rap | Game Over

[butterchurn]

Oh. I didn't understand that you meant that was the order in which people should claim, I thought that was the order in which you wanted to vote. My bad for going out of order then, I guess.

[Nero Cain]

But I know that either you're scum

or you're town who is wrong

this is literally impossible. Even if you want to argue that you are town and Ger is scum I'm still right about Owl and Jeff.

The fact that you are trying to argue a mathematical impossibility makes you look like an obvious buddy.

[butterchurn]

There's no way you seriously think that I meant you were wrong about every individual read. I was saying that your solve, which included me at the time, was wrong, because I'm town. Having one wrong person in your solve makes the solve wrong.

[Nero Cain]

So if you were the only wrong read why are you against voting Jeff or Owl?

[butterchurn]

Where did I say that? What? Are you just making things up now?

[Nero Cain]

and even if you want to say thats its actully 2 wrong reads and that only one of Jeff or Owl is scum, why not work with me and vote out the one you think is scum?

[Nero Cain]

I am voting Jeff and I think he's scum but I told the masons to pick one or the other.

@Yeezy and Arhi-I won't be sheeping you on Ger. Pick one of Owl or Jeff (ideally Jeff but it doesn't matter)

Jeff or Owl has to be scum in any team you are pushing and you know it. Why are you against this today?

[butterchurn]

Obviously, yes, that's true for any two people chosen out of you/geraint/jeff/owl, because only one of those 4 is town. Where are you getting that I'm not willing to vote for Jeff or Owl? I never said or implied that. You're either confused or lying. You are really making a habit out of misrepresenting and twisting my positions and it's pushing past the line of where I can give the benefit of the doubt that you are doing it with integrity. If you are town, I think you should take a step away and re-read and re-assess. If you're scum, just keep doing what you're doing because it's making it obvious.

[butterchurn]

It's not even internally consistent, either.

If Ger is still your top scum read why do you keep saying that you won't vote him today?

I assumed that we wouldn't be eliminating outside the cross toDay, since that's how ELo usually goes down, am I wrong in assuming that? I would obviously prefer to vote ger if that's on the table, I just didn't think it was.
[snip]
You are not at the top of who I want to vote, I'm not sure where you got that. I would prefer voting ger over both you and Jeff, and I would like to hear more from Jeff before coming to any sort of decision between you two.

So if you were the only wrong read why are you against voting Jeff or Owl?

Where did I say that? What? Are you just making things up now?

I am voting Jeff and I think he's scum but I told the masons to pick one or the other.

@Yeezy and Arhi-I won't be sheeping you on Ger. Pick one of Owl or Jeff (ideally Jeff but it doesn't matter)

Jeff or Owl has to be scum in any team you are pushing and you know it. Why are you against this today?

How can you possibly think that I'm unwilling to vote all of ger, jeff, and owl? Are you just convinced that I've locked my vote on you despite me just saying that you were my lowest individual scumread (although now that is certainly changing)? How does this chain of posts come from town Nero? I cannot figure out a line of reasoning that he would be using here or how this thought process comes from town, it just looks like a string of wild accusations and misrepresentations that don't even make sense when you put them together.

[butterchurn]

Okay, at the risk of giving him an out if he is scum, after rereading it a bunch of times, maybe when he says "why are you against voting Jeff or Owl?" he means to say "why are you against choosing between Jeff and Owl for your vote today?", when I interpreted it as "why are you against voting Jeff, and against voting Owl?". I can kind of see how he might make those posts as town if that's what he intended to say. That's still a misrepresentation, though, because I never said anything that would indicate I was against choosing between those two, and I don't know how he came up with the idea that I did. As I said earlier, I assumed that once Nero and Jeff voted each other, we would be elimming within the cross toDay, because that's the usual procedure in ELo to my understanding. I would be more than happy to vote outside of that if possible, as I have stated already, but I didn't think that was going to happen. I'm open to the possibility of choosing between Jeff and Owl instead, but it seems weird to me to make that switch after a cross has already been established -- why does Nero get to choose two people for the masons to decide between? There's nothing special about Jeff and Owl as a pair besides that he thinks they're suspicious; there's at least one scum between any pair of two out of jeff/nero/geraint/owl.

[geraintm]

Popping in quickly, but suspicious as fudge people not posting at all in thread

[Nero Cain]

Popping in quickly, but suspicious as fudge people not posting at all in thread

Why? Its been like this mostly all game and Owl and Jeff are scum that don't really have to do anything b/c scum win on a NL as well as a mislim. Let's vote scum, who do you want to vote Jeff, Owl, or butterscum?

[Nero Cain]

I think you should take a step away and re-read and re-assess

If I'm right (and we both know I am) why do I need re-read and re-assess?

Where are you getting that I'm not willing to vote for Jeff or Owl?

its mostly a vibe thing. I may or may not go back and quote snippets that make me feel that way. But we don't really need to go far, we can just look @ your last 2 posts (632 and 633) you are so annoyed and angry that I'm possibly forcing you to bus or force you to refuse to vote and pretty much out you.

But he's misrepping me.

I don't think I really am, I mean

maybe

I'm reading in a bit and saying the unspoken part outloud but if you think I'm scum then I'm just playing to my wincon and I don't see why that makes you angry and if you think I'm town and think it's a ger/jeff/owl team then why are you upset that I'm pushing scum? It's just not the scum you want and why does town you care which scum we eliminate?

But ok let me ask you point blank.

ARE YOU WILLING TO VOTE JEFF OR OWL TODAY?

[Nero Cain]

In fact, I think I'm being super generous by letting you pick which scum to bus.

I mean, I might get some kudos for figuring out the setup but figuring who is scum with 3 confirms and knowing that you only needed one mislim to win its a particularly hard difficulty setting. It's much more normal than hardcore.

[Nero Cain]

How can you possibly think that I'm unwilling to vote all of ger, jeff, and owl?

look how dishonest this is. Of course, you are willing to vote Ger, no one ever said you weren't. I'm only accusing you of not being willing to vote Jeff or Owl. I mean, I don't actully need you to vote Jeff or Owl as me, Ger, and the 2 masons can handle that. I just have to convince them and get them to post.

I would be more than happy to vote outside of that if possible

gee I wonder why...

why does Nero get to choose two people for the masons to decide between?

b/c im town

b/c im right

b/c I tried to vote scum yesterday while you and Jeff didn't budge and just let Scorp get eliminated. (like yes, I know I eventually voted him and I'm sure you'll bring that up) Like this game has all been very status quo. Greeting gets suspected and ran up, Fua gets suspected and ran up (it was my fault too) Scorpius gets suspected and ran up. 0 flipped scum. And you're telling me that we should just continue doing what we are doing and vote for the next guy that was suspected and run him up. Naw, we are going to switch it up and start voting for those that aren't hunting and responsible for multiple town flips.

[butterchurn]

You said that I had said that I would not vote Jeff or Owl. That was false. I get annoyed when someone misrepresents my posts consistently, regardless of their potential alignment. Saying that I'm annoyed that you're "forcing me to bus" is laughable. You have been strawmanning constantly and I do not have endless patience for that.

To answer your question, obviously yes and as I have said before I still have no idea where you came up with the idea that I wouldn't.

[butterchurn]

look how dishonest this is. Of course, you are willing to vote Ger, no one ever said you weren't.

You literally did

[Nero Cain]

but it seems weird to me to make that switch after a cross has already been established

whine

im not sure what this cross thing is. Does he mean me and Jeff voting for each other? I'm fine with it being me or Jeff today but there's nothing that says once two people have voted that has to be the days elimination. Maybe he thinks ppl will be more likely to vote me over Jeff and that's why he wants a me/jeff vote instead of it being both of his buddies. The masons and Ger can vote whomever they like and don't have to be restricted to me/jeff.

why does Nero get to choose two people for the masons to decide between?

more whine

There's nothing special about Jeff and Owl as a pair besides that he thinks they're suspicious;

there's at least one scum between any pair of two out of jeff/nero/geraint/owl.

light defense of the two. I don't think they are suspicious, I know they are scum b/c its mathematically impossible for them to be town. Also, both of them have just sat there the entire game and done next to nothing. Jeff pushed Greeting. Owl sat on Greeting. Both twiddled their thumbs while Fua and Scorp got ran up. They are scum and its where we should be gunning for today.

[butterchurn]

Yes, a cross is when two people vote each other in ELo. In my experience (mostly offsite, to be fair, but I've seen it here too), when there is a cross in ELo, general practice is to eliminate there. Both of the people voting, from a town perspective, would have the person they are voting be confirmed as scum by virtue of the game not being over, so it is usually rare that someone would be willing to switch away from voting who is in their eyes confirmed scum. I don't really care if we follow that practice or not, but I thought that was generally understood to be how things worked. Ger thought the same, I'm not alone in this:

we are clearly voting between 2 today. but no one should do anything until everyone checks in. and no one should have done anything

[Nero Cain]

look how dishonest this is. Of course, you are willing to vote Ger, no one ever said you weren't.

You literally did

no, I literally didn't

this is what I said

So if you were the only wrong read why are you against voting

Jeff or Owl

?

this is what you said I said

How can you possibly think that I'm unwilling to vote all of ger, jeff, and owl?

nowhere did I mention that you were unwilling to vote Ger but you added that in to make it technically true. We both know you are trying hard as EFF to make the days elimination between me and Ger and you

ARE

very very unwilling to vote Owl or Jeff so in your attempt to make me look like a liar you added in that I said that you said you weren't willing to vote Ger.

[butterchurn]

????

If Ger is still your top scum read why do you keep saying that you won't vote him today?

If Ger is still your top scum read why do you keep saying that you won't vote him today?

If Ger is still your top scum read why do you keep saying that you won't vote him today?

[Nero Cain]

Doesn't matter much at the moment since it looks like I won't be voting you toDay anymore

Well, okay, guess we're not voting Ger then.

[butterchurn]

I don't think this is productive anymore. You just keep saying over and over again "You said X, but I KNOW you actually think Y. Why do you think Y, you scum?". It's useless.

I think there's some chance you're just ridiculously tunnel visioned town who can't even see what's in front of him anymore, but it's hard to believe at this point that this level of strawmanning doesn't come from scum.

[Nero Cain]

look I get that being cornered and on the precipice of winning and losing is very frustrating. On the bright side it only takes one town vote for you to win and getting Ger to vote me or the masons to vote Ger doesn't seem like an impossible task.

[Nero Cain]

if you were town you'd be willing to work with me to vote whichever of Owl/Jeff you think is scum but you don't seem very willing to do that.