open 841: concgratulations to the winners and losers

[Datisi]

because i think of you as a Very Good Town Player, at least when it comes to reads, so the fact that you fucked up something you often say you're good at is like :hmm:

like even if we ignore the enchant stuff, you were screaming how pooky is town for posts that were absolutely not townie!

[Something_Smart]

s_s, why is kaiji town?

Two main reasons. One, I buy the argument that scum-Kaiji doesn't make these kills. If Kaiji is scum they have basically brought all of the people who can threaten them to melo. I do not think this is impossible for them to do as a WIFOM play but nobody has been buying this argument all game so it seems like it would be massively making things harder on themself to play into it anyway. Two, I don't think that scum-them tries so hard to control the game when their partner Enchant is already trying to cause a distraction, and this does feel like a situation where town would be more inclined to try than scum since scum only need one mislim to win. (Plus, I don't see scum-Kaiji burning that much towncred to push catboi over Enchant unless they win from it, so a team with Kaiji would have to have the n3 vig and have holstered it.)

[Kaiji]

i mean its difficult to argue with people who think only the way that they think is the valid one and if someone deviates that means they are scum

[Kaiji]

pooky talked about pushing skitter d1 but never actually did it and also even seemed to get upset when IV voted skitter is what i'm reading so far

it does pay to look back at how scum is treating people (:

also im kinda ? seeing what SS might be seeing with the catboi thing - I appreciate SS's position in the PoE where he has the ability to view things from a "SS!town" perspective if he is town.

[Kaiji]

because i think of you as a Very Good Town Player, at least when it comes to reads, so the fact that you fucked up something you often say you're good at is like :hmm:

like even if we ignore the enchant stuff, you were screaming how pooky is town for posts that were absolutely not townie!

I demonstratedly have a terrible track record for reading pooky on d1 but you know I will still try over and over to read people without the carefulness i should be applying.

i'd have been nominated for paragon if i really was that good at town.

[Datisi]

oh no, s_s is making me doubt

[Kaiji]

VOTE: skitter

here's a thought. i dislike the way skitter went from townreading me for ??? reasons to walking back from it. frankly it kinda mirrors the thread in a weird way. i can imagine scum!skitter starting the game off with townreading me because i'm generally a loud townspew-y player so why get into that mess when she can try to get on my good side early. but once she realized i'm *not* getting townread? "nevermind datisi isn't townie anymore".

i don't like the callouts for being "defensive" either. because she started off with agreeing with catboi that i was being conciliatory towards nsg's scumread on me (and with the implication that that's scummy), and then it turned into me being overly defensive of the scumread. don't those two things have the opposite meaning? it feels opportunistic, like she's grabbing onto the general scumreads on me before i turn them over and making sure that doesn't happen. i don't like it.

- i liked your early game, and you were giving me similar vibes to what i've often seen from early-town-you. i'm not sure tbh why you find that read to be quite shocking
- given that you *don't* think that you're being townie for you, i'm also not sure why you have a problem with me changing my mind
- in this pl you wouldn't be a high priority person to buddy for scum-me imo, i don't think i would really put much, if any, thought into trying to avoid 'getting into that mess' by 'getting on your good side early'
- if that *was* my plan i certainly wouldn't lol-reverse it just because some people are calling you scummy, i'd probably wk you ...
- i'm lowkey surprised that you think this is the tactic that i'd take as scum (particularly the bit where i'd reverse course so suddenly)
- i think you were trying to deflect nsg's scurmead but like in a non-aggressive way. it isn't 'classically' defensive but you were trying to get her a bit off of your back i think, so it read as defensive to me
-

I think we should definitely revisit day 1 and have skitter reexplain what her thought processes were here.

"I forgor" is not an excuse - read datisi's posts and say where the ideas came from.

[Kaiji]

rereading d1 i think skitter was trying to pocket datisi and isn't SvS interactions - although i know believable interactions with scummates is in datisi's repitoire - not sure if its in skitter's but its a good point in datisi's favor(yes i am hard solving with skitter as scum bc if skitter is town the game is lost but also other people are townier than her regardless)

[Something_Smart]

oh no, s_s is making me doubt

That is what I'm best at

[Kaiji]

datisi it looks like you on d1 do feel some sort of TMI from skitter when reading through your interactions with her though - mind going back and reading through again and telling me what you think?

[Kaiji]

like an important thing is to look for: where people treat others differently -> because scum will OFTEN treat their teammates and townies subtly differently at the very least - if not obviously different when looking at retrospect.

[Kaiji]

no offense datisi, but like me, as town you are very pocketable.

[Datisi]

rereading d1 i think skitter was trying to pocket datisi and isn't SvS interactions - although i know believable interactions with scummates is in datisi's repitoire - not sure if its in skitter's but its a good point in datisi's favor(yes i am hard solving with skitter as scum bc if skitter is town the game is lost but also other people are townier than her regardless)

pretty sure that whatever is in my repertoire, is most definitely in hers too.

datisi it looks like you on d1 do feel some sort of TMI from skitter when reading through your interactions with her though - mind going back and reading through again and telling me what you think?

uhh, which ones. like the whole day one?

sure, but that's gonna have to wait for tomorrow, as i am about to go to bed, and right now i cannot remember a single event from day 1

[Kaiji]

no problem, we have like 7 days to do this

[Kaiji]

u know that moment when u go through the game and u see posts from flipped townies u fos'ed earlier and with the tmi that they are 100% town ur like "wtf that post was so townie"

having that experience rn with slots like mare, cakez, and andate lol

[Kaiji]

And i guess pooky do u have a read on me? Cant tell if this cakez thing is abt me or cakez

Not really, you're kind of different from a lot of previous games we've played together, - you feel a lot more aggressive.

I'm not really interested in litigating this early because reasons.

this is the fakest interaction ive ever seen in my life

[Kaiji]

kinda like "oh shit we arent interacting" bc before then they hadnt at all and skitter is like "umm haha pooky do u read me as anything pls respond"

[Kaiji]

im starting to see the catboi/skitter/pooky team now rereading d1


where they all make hard takes on other people for the most part and on eachother are fairly wishy washy.


its kinda a vibe read atp and I want catboi to respond with why they can't be partned with skitter and pooky here in their own words. if I get an omgus I'm just going to go by what I purely read.

[Kaiji]

Not really, i'm bad a reading him
I do think he's low key scummy rn tho

why is that

This is kinda a gut read, idk. Hard to put into words. But dont super feel like he's town and he isnt really trying to solve anything (ehich can admittedly be nai but makes it hard to townread him too)

- my reads being fickle is correct and you're saying a factual statement about me this game. but my response to it is "is that scummy?" and i don't want a general "well scum is more likely to change their opinion when faced with backlash" i want an actual answer. do you get the vibe that i am changing my reads in order to placate people and that i'm doing it out of survivalism? do you have any issues with how i've been changing them? if yes, why didn't you ask about them instead of just plopping down the "changing reads when faced with contrary opinions" sticker?

- again, factual statement about my play this game. i'm defensive. i'm defensive as either alignment, i don't think you can pretend that i am not. if you want to talk about whether you think my defensiveness is town or scum motivated, we can do that. but my only response to "you're defensive!!" is "yes, i am, nice to meet you."

- part of it is that i guess i am pocketed by the "scum!me would've tried harder to have a townie trajectory" line. part of it is that, from what i remember of your play and of the games we've played together, the issues you're having with my play is around what i'd expect from town!you? like, i have a degree of self-awareness to know that i'm not my usual obvtowny here. so the things you're pushing do make a degree of sense. why you're not scum who is recognizing these issues anyway, because i know you're capable of it? no idea. call it gut.

- not that you're trying to placate people per se, more that it makes me think you lack conviction in your reads since you're willing to change them when you recieve pushback, ehich is indeed a trait i associate with scum. Like usually i'd think if you thought X was scum, you'd push them, and try to convince other people etc, and here you're just willing to drop it, which makes me think its not a real read (but rather something you made up) and that you dont want to go against thread consensus.

- ok ehy do you think so much of your iso is being defensive around your reads instead of just pushing the ones you feel strongly about?

- i mean ok, this makes very little sense: i was scum earlier for pushing you at a time when other people were scumreading you because i'm taking advantage of a convenient gamestate, but wheb i double down and push you more i'm getting townread and that logic has gone out the window? This is also kinda why i dont like your reads, this doesnt followthrough from what you were saying before ...

like look how soft the top interaction is - compared to the bottom.
i know this is picked out but the ISO button is right there for you to peruse yourself.

[Kaiji]

feels like a pattern throughout.

I might make a chart and quantify this into data



maybe SS can help :3

[Kaiji]

i can imagine spec chat right now either celebrating us for finding the right path or cursing us for going down dumb rabbitholes.


honestly kinda why i feel so much pressure to perform knowing the people who are watching rn and wanting to prove that i can solve the game lol

[Kaiji]

to skitter: if you ARE by some miracle a townie - your job here is to deep dive my slot and actually read and show your work on why your read is the way it is

You will come to the conclusion of town if you do this correctly. I do not care how you feel about this request - I am simply telling you how to save this game if you are town. that is all I can do in the case that you are town and we end up losing because of a TvT mutual tunnel.

As is - I see compelling evidence between how you treated my slot, enchant/pooky slot, and varying levels of what seems like TMI on datisi's slot, and a generally lack of solviness as reason to continue FOSing you. I *am* reading your iso and i see small things that make me doubt in that they look like genuine reads, but nothing that doesnt preclude TMI reads + how the gamestate is set in terms of what the votecount/general consensus looks like etc. (just basically stuff that is like not overwhelmingly alignment indicative as town because of the fact that the gamestate wasn't in a position where it wasn't unsafe to do so as scum)

[Kaiji]

to skitter: if you ARE by some miracle a townie - your job here is to deep dive my slot and actually read and show your work on why your read is the way it is

You will come to the conclusion of town if you do this correctly. I do not care how you feel about this request - I am simply telling you how to save this game if you are town. that is all I can do in the case that you are town and we end up losing because of a TvT mutual tunnel.

As is - I see compelling evidence between how you treated my slot, enchant/pooky slot, and varying levels of what seems like TMI on datisi's slot, and a generally lack of solviness as reason to continue FOSing you. I *am* reading your iso and i see small things that make me doubt in that they look like genuine reads, but nothing that doesnt preclude TMI reads + how the gamestate is set in terms of what the votecount/general consensus looks like etc. (just basically stuff that is like not overwhelmingly alignment indicative as town because of the fact that the gamestate wasn't in a position where it wasn't unsafe to do so as scum)

to add onto the top - You also need to find and case a person as scum outside of me. Similarly to how I am in a position where I did some sus looking shit and am busting ass to make up for it - your position in the gamestate is similar and the expectation is the same.

[Kaiji]

I only extend this because of a situation in SCP upick where I misread LLD slot because she was blatantly wrong on everything and tried to coast on her claim and i ended up FOSing her slot in the end because of it(she replaced out) and scum won because of it.


I entertain ALL options in ELo/MeLo as should you if you are town.

[Kaiji]

I only extend this because of a situation in SCP upick where I misread LLD slot because she was blatantly wrong on everything and tried to coast on her claim and i ended up FOSing her slot in the end because of it(she replaced out) and scum won because of it.


I entertain ALL options in ELo/MeLo as should you if you are town.

for context - she had a 0/3 read on day 2, claimed vig, and pretended she was clear in a game where a scum vig did fit in the setup.