In post 148, TistDaniel wrote:I asked (15) if cop should claim the instant they detect scum, or wait to find the second scum. (I personally was thinking that cop should claim immediately after detecting scum, since that's vitally important information for town to have, and there's a 50% chance there will be a doctor to protect cop.) Dunnstral never actually answered this question instead talking (17) about how cop shouldn't claim when they *haven't* found any scum yet. Could just have skimmed over my post and misunderstood.
In post 15, TistDaniel wrote:Dunnstral, I know mafia can narrow it down to three possible setups. If we have a cop, we're either in A1 or C1. Mafia knows only whether we're in A or C. Both A and C can be masons, which is why I suggested that the cop fake claim as mason. From Mafia's perspective, that is a plausible claim. From the doctor's perspective, it is not, but mafia have no reason not to believe it. And if the doctor knows not to counterclaim until late the following day (or there is no doctor), town power roles are safe, and the cop gets a scan they otherwise wouldn't have gotten.
Thank you for your advice for power roles. Follow up questions:
Should cop claim the instant they detect scum, or should they try to find the second scum role?
Should doctor/jailkeeper claim if they believe they've prevented a night kill?
The most straightforward approach to cop is to "soft" claim your info if it is an innocent so that people can look back at your posts and find your result,
and to hard claim when you find mafia
Doctor should not claim when they've prevented a kill, jailkeeper should only claim if they believe they've roleblocked the kill. Unless either person is close to being eliminated
The bolded is me saying that the cop should claim if they have a guilty result
@tits - "Then they went on to say that it's a bad idea to claim mason (37, 42). I'm not going to say this is alignment-indicative though, because I think mafia would want cop to claim cop rather than mason. I can read what ofmerica said as either town-beneficial or scum-beneficial."
Why would mafia want cop to claim cop instead of mason? A fake claim has a high chance of counter claim which can throw the game on the spot for town (mafia would LOVE for a town PR to fake claim).
If the cop claims mason the cop gains nothing really, because as explained before scum now think there are a pair of masons and they know one of them, easy knight kill. This is actually low key baiting town PR's to allow fake claims which can only benefit scum.
I stand by any power role notices any fake claim or contradiction to their role. Please counter claim it.
If cop claims cop, Mafia knows the cop is a threat. Masons, I still can't really see as a threat to mafia. They don't have a scan power. It's easier for me to believe that scum would let a confirmed mason live than a confirmed cop.
By "town never fake claiming" we eliminate an avenue for scum to escape a lynch by fake claiming and getting immunity. For this to work town NEEDS to counter claim when a contradiction is noticed or the entire tactics is useless. These two conditions go hand in hand.
Since town knows town wouldn't fake claim, it's an easy way to catch a mafia member.
I think cops and mason are equally damaging threats to mafia. Masons claiming together would mean two confirmed town, and I highly doubt scum would pull a move like that.
Cop can't confirm themself as easily, but they can nail a scum. I would not expect Cop to live to the next day if that ended up happening unless it's exactly Town Cop and Town Doctor.
Masons are harder to kill than Cops because there's more of them.
In post 155, TistDaniel wrote:But this is the thing you want to talk about? Not the Progo case?
I waited for progo's response. Me asking him directly would not be me waiting for clarity. I asked someone else just to get some extra input on what I thought was a slip, my question to Dunnstral was as basic as it gets. Your claim that I was setting up shade by asking that isn't true. If I wanted to opportunistically join or start any wagons I would use what was already being setup, not an entirely new angle attacking two players, which if I was scum would be turning 2 townies against me.
I feel your case is wrong not necessarily from scum though, just overactive town trying extremely hard to find scum.
ofmerica, I think meta is more complex than just "the most effective tactics available". Meta is the most effective tactics *based on what is currently in common usage*. It's wrong to fake-clam as town power in current site meta, because current site meta says that town should immediately counterclaim.
If current site meta was that town should counterclaim late the following day, would it still be wrong? This still results in fake claims being eliminated, but it gives them the chance to use a power first. Perhaps it's not as good idea to claim mason as I had originally thought, but there's still a 50% chance that a cop who claims cop before scanning will never get to scan.
In post 157, fwogcarf wrote:I think cops and mason are equally damaging threats to mafia. Masons claiming together would mean two confirmed town, and I highly doubt scum would pull a move like that.
Cop can't confirm themself as easily, but they can nail a scum. I would not expect Cop to live to the next day if that ended up happening unless it's exactly Town Cop and Town Doctor.
Masons are harder to kill than Cops because there's more of them.
What tist seems to think is that claiming mason as a cop will somehow allow mafia team to not night kill this power role.
Why would mafia not kill the mason????? They won't be like "oh it's just a mason need to find the cop" there is no cop or doctor etc. There are only a pair of masons and they know the mason. IT WILL NOT PROTECT YOU FROM NIGHT KILL. Sorry caps but I feel I'm on repeat here.
Tist I get that fakeclaiming a PR (whether you're a VT/different PR) might be beneficial somehow to confusing scum but when you look at it from a townie mindset I really don't think it's a good idea to do so.
In post 154, TistDaniel wrote:If cop claims cop, Mafia knows the cop is a threat. Masons, I still can't really see as a threat to mafia. They don't have a scan power. It's easier for me to believe that scum would let a confirmed mason live than a confirmed cop.
A mason might not be as obvious of an threat as they can not clear or guilty other players in the game, but they are confirmed town, and if they have good reads then other town are likely to sheep those reads from someone they know are trustworthy. It is also important to consider that if mafia get's a lot of mislims off then there are less of those players to hide behind, making it harder to not be found out by the remaining town players. And if those remaining town players are mason then the PoE get's even more tight. So mafia are very likely to see mason as a threat and kill them regardless.
In post 159, TistDaniel wrote:ofmerica, I think meta is more complex than just "the most effective tactics available". Meta is the most effective tactics *based on what is currently in common usage*. It's wrong to fake-clam as town power in current site meta, because current site meta says that town should immediately counterclaim.
If current site meta was that town should counterclaim late the following day, would it still be wrong? This still results in fake claims being eliminated, but it gives them the chance to use a power first. Perhaps it's not as good idea to claim mason as I had originally thought, but there's still a 50% chance that a cop who claims cop before scanning will never get to scan.
But it's ineffective to rely on a town player (the other power role) and actually the entire town to get incorrect information in the hopes of there is some bigger play happening that will somehow catch scum. Instead of a reliable, consistent and effective basic strat that does not allow for scum to take advantage of. It just opens up way too many scenarios for scum to abuse.
By "town never fake claiming" we eliminate an avenue for scum to escape a lynch by fake claiming and getting immunity. For this to work town NEEDS to counter claim when a contradiction is noticed or the entire tactics is useless. These two conditions go hand in hand.
Since town knows town wouldn't fake claim, it's an easy way to catch a mafia member.
FYI, "lynch" as a term is being phased out from this site. You're recommended to use the alternative of "eliminate/lim" "lim/mislim" "Yeet/misyeet" "Elo/Melo" etc...
I'll admit, I could be wrong. Part of where I was coming from originally was that I assumed that mafia would have more reasons behind the nightkill than just the power role. Let's say AutoDefenestrator claimed mason right now. He's saying he has no power to scan or block the nightkill. But we also know that it's his first game on the site, and several players are leaning on him for lurking too much. It seemed to me that mafia would be more likely to kill me, because I'm the most town-read player, I'm talking a lot, and maybe I got lucky with some of my reads. Meanwhile, a wagon might still form on AutoDefenestrator even if they do absolutely nothing about it.
Like I've said, I haven't played any games here before. Maybe mafia always kills power over someone troublesome in other ways. I've been assuming I'm probably going to be tonight's nightkill though.
In post 167, TistDaniel wrote:I'll admit, I could be wrong. Part of where I was coming from originally was that I assumed that mafia would have more reasons behind the nightkill than just the power role. Let's say AutoDefenestrator claimed mason right now. He's saying he has no power to scan or block the nightkill. But we also know that it's his first game on the site, and several players are leaning on him for lurking too much. It seemed to me that mafia would be more likely to kill me, because I'm the most town-read player, I'm talking a lot, and maybe I got lucky with some of my reads. Meanwhile, a wagon might still form on AutoDefenestrator even if they do absolutely nothing about it.
Like I've said, I haven't played any games here before. Maybe mafia always kills power over someone troublesome in other ways. I've been assuming I'm probably going to be tonight's nightkill though.
Masons confirm 2 towns, much better for town instead of trusting a shaky day1 alignment feel. Eliming someone else in as the night kill would be bad for mafia. Since they are narrowing their own pool which is already very narrowed with 2 confirmed towns still alive later in the game.
VOTE: Frogsterking
Looking back on it, i think their "oh you slipped" stuff on ProgoWoshua was pretty opportunistic so i want to vote here. They unvote later of course, but that is after negative thread response so i don't give it very much credit.
Anyway, my whole reason for bringing this thing up was to explain why I'm not townreading ofmerica for saying this. Even if this is just obvious to everyone here but me, that's still not a reason to townread ofmerica for saying this. It's NAI, which was my point.
In post 170, NorwegianboyEE wrote:VOTE: Frogsterking
Looking back on it, i think their "oh you slipped" stuff on ProgoWoshua was pretty opportunistic so i want to vote here. They unvote later of course, but that is after negative thread response so i don't give it very much credit.
I also thought it was a slip, and that scum got really unfortunate. Was really hoping it wasn't the case lol.
In post 170, NorwegianboyEE wrote:VOTE: Frogsterking
Looking back on it, i think their "oh you slipped" stuff on ProgoWoshua was pretty opportunistic so i want to vote here. They unvote later of course, but that is after negative thread response so i don't give it very much credit.
I also thought it was a slip, and that scum got really unfortunate. Was really hoping it wasn't the case lol.
Hmm this sounds like you had a pretty genuine thought and reaction you likely wouldn't have had if you were scum and knew it was a fake slip.
I got a townlean on Mercia based on this post.
