Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame

[Yeet]

now i'm trying to evaluate whether it really is scummy to vote someone you think is town vs someone you think is null. I believe the choices were Wu, Nordom, and I. Interesting that he would join a wagon he does not support because he felt that it was necessary for game progress. i dont think i buy that at all.

I thought your wagon was way higher at the time. And honestly, as scum I don't see why I wouldn't at least try to fake a backtrack or be too scared to actually vote you. I feel like the risks as a scumplayer outweigh any benefits.

[humaneatingmonkey]

i'm not even sure, what progress did you want the game to be in by voting a townlean?

[Yeet]

Plot development, content, etc., really whatever ends up happening I feel is generally good. I have been in games where town just sits around on their vanity wagon all day and almost nothing gets accomplished, and scum are easily able to move the wagons away from themselves because people don't want to compromise on pushing people. I thought it was necessary to set this tone at the time so that we do not become one of those towns.

[Yeet]

Don't you feel this wagon on me is generating some interesting content, for example? Now I am feeling a bit of pressure to defend myself and that can help you all evaluate me better too.

[Nero Cain]

this makes me think, did skitter's wagon go up at like, any point other than last night?

I think some people had mentioned Skitter being scum most notably Math and Fire for not doing her "ping" thing.

Can you link me a game or 2 that you played in where there was a hood?

[Nero Cain]

Nero's #2211 is kind of a reach but it's interesting to note.

maybe but I'm also not voting there and asking for others' opinions on it but you are voting him so if you think he's scum he said that while having a red pm so....

[Yeet]

Because fua is currently my top scumspect. It’s pretty simple…

A "bland Iso" is causing your biggest scumread right now?

I think you're full of it... It's a horrible reason to begin with,looking at their Iso makes it even worse.

Got anything better? you just made me really hate this wagon.

A bland, postury ISO is probably better than most scumreads one can get, imo. Also just gut something doesn’t sit right with me.

And i don’t understand how my singular reason made you hate the wagon. There are plenty of other people on this wagon.

I'm going back to this post as being really sketchy now that we believe fua to be town.

I'm interested in people's thoughts on Scorpious's post here. It was so pingy that this alone gave me a bit of doubt that fua was scum at the time, and now that we believe fua is town it looks even worse to me. Assume both me and fua are town. It feels like he is setting up for me to look bad at some point down the line if fua is shown to be town. And again, I don't see why town feels the need to single me out and taunt me here.

[Yeet]

scummy
Scorpious
DeasVail
Eyes without a face
GeneralWu

like here's Mith's gift to mafia pushing 3 lurkers and some rando as scum

Pooky is a certainly a strong player but no one is infallible. I also feel that most of the active players are more likely to be town in this game.

Im not sure what you’re saying here Math. Oh and you can be town too.

Nero, I don’t. They were two independent points against your accusation.

I explain shortly after that those two points are independent. You are arguing you think they are wrong and you think they should be right.

I said, as two independent rebuttals that: 1) they might not be wrong 2) they don't have to be right to be town.

Nero, can you read my (now 2nd) response and tell me if that eases your anxiety about this?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Don't you feel this wagon on me is generating some interesting content, for example? Now I am feeling a bit of pressure to defend myself and that can help you all evaluate me better too.

what i'm not sure of is why you decided the pressure on my wagon wasn't enough that you had to go on my slot — much more that you think the slot was a townlean. there were other viable picks and we're barely near our deadline.

sorry but this is 2 sketchy 4 me. i respect your time, so i won't waste it buy going through this a million times when i think we've discussed enough. maybe I'll change my mind later.

[Nero Cain]

if anything it seemed like a defense of Fua and not so much about a potential push on u.

[Datisi]

this makes me think, did skitter's wagon go up at like, any point other than last night?

I think some people had mentioned Skitter being scum most notably Math and Fire for not doing her "ping" thing.

Can you link me a game or 2 that you played in where there was a hood?

thanks, i'll check that out.

normal games that i've played in that had a hood are:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=80974 - 9p, town/town
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=82613 - 9p, town/scum
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=83045 - 9p, town/town
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=84455 - 13p, town/town
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=84322 - 12p, town/scum/scum

and one game which had a scum/scum hood of a scum and a traitor that i'm not really counting since it wasn't a hood in the usual sense.

so, yeah. i'm really not buying the notion that "there has to be scum in hood because *radio static*".

[Yeet]

@HEM Sure we were not close to deadline but that's kind of the point - I don't want to wait until deadline to start advancing plot and having serious wagons. I wanted to have more than just your wagon on D1 and have plenty of time left so that we don't have to do suboptimal things during the time scramble. And in a Large game like this, it is extra hard to coordinate everyone and takes extra long.

Also townlean is a word that means a lot of things, and not everyone does the same thing with their reads of varying confidence. I don't think a particular read changes the actual probability that person is scum by that much, I think it would quite arrogant honestly to assume that it does. But I can understand why it looks weird to you.

I do think you should ponder this though (there is obviously wifom here but I think you should consider how much value it genuinely serves me as scum):

As town I don't care that it looks like I voted for a "townlean", I care about what I'm thinking and writing about at the time (game progression). Although honestly maybe I should've been more cognizant that it might get me scrutiny, but it's just not the priority for me.

As scum I know you're town and every time I make a post I am probably thinking "does this look really bad"? And I think the way I approach this as scum is not some crazy double wifom thing where I know I get scrutinized for this vote down the line when people go down the wagon list and analyze motivations, but rather that I would try and come up with a real reason to scumread you and work the clock to drop my read on you in a "less suspicious" way. It's just a much more intuitive scum approach and I think in practice almost all scum would rather do something like that than what I did.

[humaneatingmonkey]

let's change the topic - how do you read the game right now?

[Yeet]

{fua, HEM, MathBlade}
{Nero, Datisi}
{VP Baltar, Cape90, DeasVail, fire}
{Aristeia, Frogsterking}
{tenebrous, STD, Malcolm, Wu, eyes} - null tier
{Scorpious, skitter}

[Datisi]

i've read the remaining two pages, i don't think i have much to say that others haven't said yet. the "game progression" argument is like, whatever, i've seen townies use that before so i guess it's not implausible. though did you like, actually learn anything from the wagon on monkey?

maybe a more important q right now, why did you vote skitter in 2114? you didn't really mention her ever since lightly scumreading her back on the very early pages.

pedit: i guess this is a "explain the skitt scumread" post now

[Datisi]

and maybe elaborate on 2016, actually.

[Yeet]

Skitter seems a bit underwhelming in general this game when I've heard as town she is basically a master scum crusher. I also give a little bit of weight to fire's "ping" tell. I also saw people voting there which makes it an appealing vote.

And I honestly haven't read through that much at all and I think that's one of the things I need to look at first, thanks for the reminder.

[Yeet]

though did you like, actually learn anything from the wagon on monkey?

Also I think it's beneficial for the game state to run people up sooner rather than later as a whole. So the intention wasn't really a reaction test on my part that I was dying to analyze myself or anything. But I think you're right that it's still worth rereading, if I get a chance to (with the game moving as fast as it is).

Re: you, Aristeia made me rethink your slot. You started getting very active and your posts did feel very "off the cuff". I started to get the same vibe that she did about your posting and I do feel like as scum you are more methodical/less abrasive and a lot of your later engagement felt like anything but that.

[humaneatingmonkey]

it's beneficial for the game state to run people up sooner rather than later

three prs have been run up, you're the leading wagon, and this is your conclusion

[Yeet]

That is results-oriented thinking. And I am fine slowing down the game a bit now that clearly it can move quickly.

[humaneatingmonkey]

lmao yeet

[Scorpious]

you guys are hella mean. you keep asking mathblade why he thinks Ari is scum, and then keep yelling at him for repeating what he thinks. what do you guys expect? his answer will change overtime to be more like yours?

very charismatic.

Can this post be pinned on a new topic “so you wanna play mafia…”

Anyway, spot on..

[Scorpious]

Because fua is currently my top scumspect. It’s pretty simple…

A "bland Iso" is causing your biggest scumread right now?

I think you're full of it... It's a horrible reason to begin with,looking at their Iso makes it even worse.

Got anything better? you just made me really hate this wagon.

A bland, postury ISO is probably better than most scumreads one can get, imo. Also just gut something doesn’t sit right with me.

And i don’t understand how my singular reason made you hate the wagon. There are plenty of other people on this wagon.

I'm going back to this post as being really sketchy now that we believe fua to be town.

I'm interested in people's thoughts on Scorpious's post here. It was so pingy that this alone gave me a bit of doubt that fua was scum at the time, and now that we believe fua is town it looks even worse to me. Assume both me and fua are town. It feels like he is setting up for me to look bad at some point down the line if fua is shown to be town. And again, I don't see why town feels the need to single me out and taunt me here.

My spliff and I appreciate you giving us so much credit..

[Mizzytastic]

Counting up the territory white has 58 points and black has 90 points. Next if you were using territory counting you'd add the prisoners each player has to these totals. Assuming no prisoners were captured earlier in the game that would give white 74 points and black 92 points.

---

Official Votecount 1.16

skitter30 (3): fua, MathBlade, Yeet

[E-7]

Yeet (3): Frogsterking, humaneatingmonkey, VP Baltar

[E-7]

GeneralWu (3): Datisi, tenebrousluminary, fireisredsir

[E-7]

fua (2): skitter30, April Ludgate
Nero Cain(1): Nero Cain
Eyes without a face (1): Cape90
April Ludgate (1): Save The Dragons

Not Voting (5): Scorpious, DeasVail, MalcolmTucker, Eyes without a face, GeneralWu

With 19 players alive, it takes 10 votes to achieve an eliminaton.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2022-03-12 05:15:00).

click here for joined mod iso.

[Datisi]

it's not that i inherently have a problem with people voting someone they town lean for the greater good of the gamestate or whatever it is. but like, when townies do do that, i expect that they're actively paying attention to how the wagon does, who gets on or off, and are drawing conclusions from it, since it's not something they really like, want to be on. as opposed to scum who decided they're gonna do the "hehe i voted a townlean for the gamestate!" defense.

skitter is really good as town, yeah. the thing i'm thinking of right now is what i commented earlier, i find it weird that there was an actual wagon happening on her seemingly right after she went for a few-day-vla.

the ping tell is really entertaining to me because it reminds me of a game where bob and i were scum, and one of the townies was like "btw bob is scum because he said the word 'fellow' 14 times this game and he says that word more often as town than as scum" and i wanted to bang my head against the wall because it was such a caught for the wrong reasons thing when that game was a complete outlier

anyway, i'm not a huge fan of such takes because good scum (like skitter is) are generally perfectly able to replicate word tics like that so it's more likely to be a coincidence than an actual tell, as i once got townread by someone because i said "hot take" a few times and they looked at my games and concluded i only say that as town

i was scum that game