Newbie 2090 (Game Over)

[Somnus]

[quote="In post 402,
I was gonna tbhs but, like, yknow? I think at best people are too quick to townread Ailianna.[/quote]

You may be right. My very early read was based almost entirely on tone. Can you make a case on her?

[Somnus]

Searching for a replacement for Alianna.

Nevermind...

[Somnus]

Town: Lukewarm, TTTT.
furtiveglance should replace TTTT's vote on marcistar.

What is your read on marcistar? This would imply to me that she is one of your scum-reads?

[PlmPestPlaY]

Waw. It appears to be true, at least for this type of setup. Given what I've learned, I am now a lot less interested in the game for some reason. Sooo eeeh double wappa? VOTE: Somnus

Ok. So there's 2 I didn't understand, but there's a couple other ones that I have questions about. Surely you knew that in mafia, people get voted off, correct? I'm not being sarcastic when I ask that, so please don't take my question as me being snide because I promise you I'm being serious. I've never played on Epic Mafia, but is it so fundamentally different from forum mafia that you didn't know the goal that we're working towards? What changed to make you less interested in the game pertaining to the setup? Help me understand.

It's been a long time and I doubt I was any good at it, but in the version of the game that I played, random voting was bad, from what I recall. I fail to see the distinction between that and what we're doing.

[PlmPestPlaY]

May I ask, am I the only one who has a hard time understanding PPP's posts? They're worded very confusingly and I don't really know what to make of it.

There's just two that I had a hard time understanding. Pimpest and I had a brief dialogue about 332 but it quickly dissolved (was late at night). I took a look at it later on with a fresh set of eyes and still didn't entirely understand it, but it's kind of whatever. 378 pinged me a lot harder. I'll get to that in a bit.

I meant you broke the first assumption in my post. You said you we're mafia, while I said: assuming me and furtiveglance are town. Anyway, it was hardly relevant then and it's especially not now.

[Frozen Angel]

Vote Count 1-10

marcistar (3)[E2]:

Mr Turtle, BigTerp, Alianna

Somnus (2):

Lukewarm, PlmPestPlaY

PlmPestPlaY (1):

Somnus

Not Voting (3):

marcistar, furtiveglance, TTTT

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Deadline: March 15, 5 am GMT.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-03-15 05:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- Searching for a replacement for Alianna.

[Somnus]

Waw. It appears to be true, at least for this type of setup. Given what I've learned, I am now a lot less interested in the game for some reason. Sooo eeeh double wappa? VOTE: Somnus

Ok. So there's 2 I didn't understand, but there's a couple other ones that I have questions about. Surely you knew that in mafia, people get voted off, correct? I'm not being sarcastic when I ask that, so please don't take my question as me being snide because I promise you I'm being serious. I've never played on Epic Mafia, but is it so fundamentally different from forum mafia that you didn't know the goal that we're working towards? What changed to make you less interested in the game pertaining to the setup? Help me understand.

It's been a long time and I doubt I was any good at it, but in the version of the game that I played, random voting was bad, from what I recall. I fail to see the distinction between that and what we're doing.

I appreciate the response, but I don't know that anyone is random voting at this point? I'm not a fan of RVS, but I'm not against it. I do see some value in using it to get the ball rolling. You all already know that I prefer to get the ball rolling with conversation pertaining to experience/prior games, so I won't dwell on that further.

Luke's vote on me isn't random. He's incorrect with the conclusion, which happens more times as town than not, but it isn't random. Same thing with BigTerp's previous vote on me. I can at least respect that BigTerp laid out his case on me early on, even if I found the logic behind it to be incredibly faulty. I don't think any of the people who have placed a vote on Marcistar over the last day or two have done so randomly. So I guess what I'm saying is: I'm confused why you think people are just voting randomly.

[Somnus]

May I ask, am I the only one who has a hard time understanding PPP's posts? They're worded very confusingly and I don't really know what to make of it.

There's just two that I had a hard time understanding. Pimpest and I had a brief dialogue about 332 but it quickly dissolved (was late at night). I took a look at it later on with a fresh set of eyes and still didn't entirely understand it, but it's kind of whatever. 378 pinged me a lot harder. I'll get to that in a bit.

I meant you broke the first assumption in my post. You said you we're mafia, while I said: assuming me and furtiveglance are town. Anyway, it was hardly relevant then and it's especially not now.

Ok. Yeah I don't fully understand that previous post as I mentioned, but I agree that it's probably not relevant.

[Somnus]

Town: Lukewarm, TTTT.
furtiveglance should replace TTTT's vote on marcistar.

What is your read on marcistar? This would imply to me that she is one of your scum-reads?

Your response to this though would be greatly appreciated as well.

[PlmPestPlaY]

So I guess what I'm saying is: I'm confused why you think people are just voting randomly.

Well my vote on you is based on 2 towny looking players suspecting you. So it's not random, but is it more correct than a random vote? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Town: Lukewarm, TTTT.
furtiveglance should replace TTTT's vote on marcistar.

What is your read on marcistar? This would imply to me that she is one of your scum-reads?

I scumleaned marcistar because of popularity and the generic bot-like posts, same as BigTerp. I can understand it though, if there is a lack of time or posting off a phone. I agree with Lukewarm that I would be an easy get out of jail free card. That was true even from the beginning, since I had 2 votes on me, yet marcistar never made that pivot. I don't see how we got anything out of marcistar, but pressure = good, I'm told.

[BigTerp]

Sorry guys, busy last 20 hours or so. Catching up now......

[BigTerp]

Pretty solid town reads -

TTTT

- Still seems to be playing the game with gusto and really trying to figure things out. Has been my biggest town read since early on.

Luke

- Was an initial scummy read for me, mostly because lack of participation and odd initial posts, but since then they have come in hard and fast with some good analyzations and also seems to be really trying to figure things out. Their post don't seem contrived or forced. Very town like, to my eyes.

Neutral -

Furtiveglance

- Pretty neutral to slight town read here. They seem to be trying to move the game along and not hide in the shadows. The intent to hammer Marci here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13287587 is not something I feel like scum would do this early in the game. Rather something a town aligned player would do to help moves things along, which is much my same feelings.

Somnus

- I'm having a LOT of trouble reading Somnus for whatever reason. At one point I feel like they are being defensive/squirmy, but at the same time as the game goes on it just seems to be their play style. Even though they've been participating more than others, I would like to hear from them moving forward just to help my own reads.

Mr. Turtle

- This has gone from a fairly strong town lean to a neutral/slight scummy lean. Mostly because of lack of posts. The post they are making are decent, in terms of analytics, but they could be defined as contrived or almost forced. Not really seeming to make any bold posts, or trying to mix things up. Most of them are in alignment with others thoughts, which in and of itself isn't necessarily scummy. But mixed with limited posts it gives me pause. They do have Marcistar as their biggest scum read, which aligns with myself. Pretty much the only thing keeping me from being a full scum read here.

Scum reads -

PPP

- Just some really weird posts throughout, and little participation. I don't necessarily contribute post count to alignment, but when a low post count is combined with fluffy type posts I think scum. PPP's are about as fluffy as anyone's. I'm also confused on their vote on Somnus. They don't really put up much of a reasoning for Somnus, scum read Marcistar, ask others to put votes on Marcistar, yet vote Somnus. REALLY odd string of posts here.

Marcistar

- Still my biggest scum read for reasons I've already mentioned. They've done nothing since to change my mind. And PPP's, mostly indirect, interaction with them has me even more suspicious.

Alianna

- Lost cause at this point. Replacement player is only going to muddy the waters here even more. But, that's the way it goes.

[BigTerp]

Marcistar is still my biggest scum lean, but I feel like we're not getting much from them at E-2. Even at E-1 it was mostly crickets. Yeah, that seems pretty scummy to me, but I just don't feel like it's helping us make progress.

I'd like some pressure on PPP. Like I said in my latest read list, they've had some pretty odd post throughout. Their vote on Somnus is because 2 of their town reads are on them, not because they read Somnus as scum. They mention Marcistar as a scumread, yet their vote is elsewhere because of other players. They seem to be soft claiming Marci as scum. By that I mean they claim Marci as a scumlean, without really claiming them as a scumlean. They say

"I scumleaned marcistar because of popularity and the generic bot-like posts, same as BigTerp. I can understand it though, if there is a lack of time or posting off a phone."

It's like saying I read Marci as scum, but I understand why they seem scummy, so their not scum. What?!?!

VOTE: PPP

[furtiveglance]

Shame that Alianna is being replaced, I thought they were a fun/chill presence in the game. Are there conventions on replacements - should we give the new player a clean slate or do we see it as the same slot? I think I was townreading Alianna.

[BigTerp]

Shame that Alianna is being replaced, I thought they were a fun/chill presence in the game. Are there conventions on replacements - should we give the new player a clean slate or do we see it as the same slot? I think I was townreading Alianna.

Good question. Can't say I've played many, if any, games where replacements were needed. I'd lean towards clean slate. Give them a chance to get caught up and answer any questions, at least.

Either way, I strongly think we should give the replacement a chance to do the above before anyone gets eliminated.

What do you think of my read on PPP as well as suggestion and vote to put some pressure on them? You mentioned a few pages back you preferred them over Marcistar. Why is your vote still on no one?

Also, you made it known of your intent to hammer Marci yet preferred PPP. Can you explain/expand on that?

[furtiveglance]

Shame that Alianna is being replaced, I thought they were a fun/chill presence in the game. Are there conventions on replacements - should we give the new player a clean slate or do we see it as the same slot? I think I was townreading Alianna.

Good question. Can't say I've played many, if any, games where replacements were needed. I'd lean towards clean slate. Give them a chance to get caught up and answer any questions, at least.

Either way, I strongly think we should give the replacement a chance to do the above before anyone gets eliminated.

What do you think of my read on PPP as well as suggestion and vote to put some pressure on them? You mentioned a few pages back you preferred them over Marcistar. Why is your vote still on no one?

Also, you made it known of your intent to hammer Marci yet preferred PPP. Can you explain/expand on that?

I have them both as scumreads. I gave intent to hammer because I scumread Marci and they had/have more votes than PPP. I think both are decent votes.
I need to think a bit more before I vote now though.

[furtiveglance]

Updated readslist: In this list I am looking through ISOs and noting what catches my eye.

Lukewarm

: Is giving a lot of analysis which I love. Even if Lukewarm is mafia, they are greatly helping town with their gamesolving, and it doesn't seem fake/unsubstantiated/badly-motivated to me. They chose to scumread Somnus who is not an easy push, rather than just double down on Marcistar/PPP/me, who seemed to be the collective scumreads at the time. Lukewarm is my biggest townread.

BigTerp

: This player gives me a lot of thought. After an awkward start, they have grown into the game. I don't know whether I am happy about this or concerned by it. I do strongly agree with their reads in 436. They are clearly biased towards high frequency posting which I think could be a town tell, as mafia probably wouldn't defer to post count for their reads so openly. BigTerp gets a townread from me. I was on the fence, but they are not in my scumpool anymore.

TTTT

: I am conflicted now. I was townreading them because they seemed to be playing differently to last game, but I don't like that they tried to play executioner in 308. Of those people, I'm not mafia, I don't think Lukewarm is mafia and the other two were just the easiest targets at the time. There hasn't been enough explaining of thoughts from TTTT. Why was it that you drew up a list of 4 potential elims, and how did you arrive at those names?
I still townlean TTTT, but I am less sure after their erratic posting, and I agree they are guilty of LAMIST posting. I disagree that TTTT should be locked town for 415. Mafia can put effort in as well

Mr Turtle

: 98 , 109, 182, 202 and 389 are easy posts for anyone to make - questioning game strategy, questioning reasons for reads. This is limited in its usefulness - yes these questions make other players think and second-guess reads, but this kind of posting does not help me townread Mr Turtle. I would prefer to see more analysis and opinion of their own. As for their reads in 228 and 276 , I like that they gave scumreads first; the most important thing is to find mafia. They gave a fair criticism of my 'defend all wagons' strategy, which I see now is fairly dumb. I agree with these scumreads (of PPP and Marcistar) but not with their reasoning. Turtle wants PPP to be more 'confident' and says they made some posts which Turtle 'didn't get' - those aren't good reasons to scumread someone in my opinion. Turtle's main issue with Marcistar was that they didn't vote for me despite scumcasing me - this could just be Marci's playstyle. I had Turtle as a townread earlier but I think they are back in the null range.

Alianna

: Soon to be replaced. I think it's best to say null for that reason. I would have said town if I had to guess, however their townread on Somnus in 216 stood out to me, because they said 'similar reasons to Turtle' and I didn't think Somnus had earned it in the same way. But they're being replaced, so in the null range.

PimPestPlay

: n00b. If they are mafia they are playing very level zero, and it would be daring to play this way as mafia, but thinking about this is just WIFOM. They are very self aware in their newness and none of their reads/analyses are grounded in anything other than either randomness, peer pressure, or bizarre assumptions/leaps of logic. In 421 they use the word 'should' which is throwing me off, as town is surely more likely to think in this way - we are all working together etc. I scumread them previously for doing things without reason, but that could just as easily be nooby town. One thing's for sure: this player is never getting nightkilled. I've never been a fan of the Darwinian 'vote out unhelpful players though'. I think I'll revise this read back to null.

Somnus

: A lot of posts, 1 readslist. That one readslist in 331 is all I really have to go on. They have pinned the two 'newbie' players as scumleans which I don't like. Despite being a high frequency poster, I haven't been townreading Somnus this game, and having read through Newbie 2087 I can't see much difference in their play this game. I'm giving Somnus a null/scum lean here.

Marcistar

: I can't get over their reluctance to voice thoughts on the game despite being on the brink of elimination. They don't seem to have any kind of agenda however, and like Lukewarm says, they aren't desperately self-preserving (e.g. by voting for Somnus). It's still a scum-lean from me.

To conclude then, my townbloc consists of Lukewarm, BigTerp and TTT.

This leaves a scumpool of Turtle, PPP, Alianna's replacement, Somnus and Marcistar.

My gut read is that Somnus is red. VOTE: Somnus

[TTTT]

now we are getting somewhere
make sure you analyse these wagons later in the game after a few flips

VOTE: marci

[TTTT]

I want Marci to respond to 409 / 410

[TTTT]

the IT guy at work now has this forum blocked
so I'm stuck phone posting during working hours
seriously taking a dump in my Cheerios here

[TTTT]

someone asked how to deal with Alianna's replacement
I don't move them to null
how their predecessor played matters
why would it not?

[BigTerp]

Updated readslist: In this list I am looking through ISOs and noting what catches my eye.

Lukewarm

: Is giving a lot of analysis which I love. Even if Lukewarm is mafia, they are greatly helping town with their gamesolving, and it doesn't seem fake/unsubstantiated/badly-motivated to me. They chose to scumread Somnus who is not an easy push, rather than just double down on Marcistar/PPP/me, who seemed to be the collective scumreads at the time. Lukewarm is my biggest townread.

BigTerp

: This player gives me a lot of thought. After an awkward start, they have grown into the game. I don't know whether I am happy about this or concerned by it. I do strongly agree with their reads in 436. They are clearly biased towards high frequency posting which I think could be a town tell, as mafia probably wouldn't defer to post count for their reads so openly. BigTerp gets a townread from me. I was on the fence, but they are not in my scumpool anymore.

TTTT

: I am conflicted now. I was townreading them because they seemed to be playing differently to last game, but I don't like that they tried to play executioner in 308. Of those people, I'm not mafia, I don't think Lukewarm is mafia and the other two were just the easiest targets at the time. There hasn't been enough explaining of thoughts from TTTT. Why was it that you drew up a list of 4 potential elims, and how did you arrive at those names?
I still townlean TTTT, but I am less sure after their erratic posting, and I agree they are guilty of LAMIST posting. I disagree that TTTT should be locked town for 415. Mafia can put effort in as well

Mr Turtle

: 98 , 109, 182, 202 and 389 are easy posts for anyone to make - questioning game strategy, questioning reasons for reads. This is limited in its usefulness - yes these questions make other players think and second-guess reads, but this kind of posting does not help me townread Mr Turtle. I would prefer to see more analysis and opinion of their own. As for their reads in 228 and 276 , I like that they gave scumreads first; the most important thing is to find mafia. They gave a fair criticism of my 'defend all wagons' strategy, which I see now is fairly dumb. I agree with these scumreads (of PPP and Marcistar) but not with their reasoning. Turtle wants PPP to be more 'confident' and says they made some posts which Turtle 'didn't get' - those aren't good reasons to scumread someone in my opinion. Turtle's main issue with Marcistar was that they didn't vote for me despite scumcasing me - this could just be Marci's playstyle. I had Turtle as a townread earlier but I think they are back in the null range.

Alianna

: Soon to be replaced. I think it's best to say null for that reason. I would have said town if I had to guess, however their townread on Somnus in 216 stood out to me, because they said 'similar reasons to Turtle' and I didn't think Somnus had earned it in the same way. But they're being replaced, so in the null range.

PimPestPlay

: n00b. If they are mafia they are playing very level zero, and it would be daring to play this way as mafia, but thinking about this is just WIFOM. They are very self aware in their newness and none of their reads/analyses are grounded in anything other than either randomness, peer pressure, or bizarre assumptions/leaps of logic. In 421 they use the word 'should' which is throwing me off, as town is surely more likely to think in this way - we are all working together etc. I scumread them previously for doing things without reason, but that could just as easily be nooby town. One thing's for sure: this player is never getting nightkilled. I've never been a fan of the Darwinian 'vote out unhelpful players though'. I think I'll revise this read back to null.

Somnus

: A lot of posts, 1 readslist. That one readslist in 331 is all I really have to go on. They have pinned the two 'newbie' players as scumleans which I don't like. Despite being a high frequency poster, I haven't been townreading Somnus this game, and having read through Newbie 2087 I can't see much difference in their play this game. I'm giving Somnus a null/scum lean here.

Marcistar

: I can't get over their reluctance to voice thoughts on the game despite being on the brink of elimination. They don't seem to have any kind of agenda however, and like Lukewarm says, they aren't desperately self-preserving (e.g. by voting for Somnus). It's still a scum-lean from me.

To conclude then, my townbloc consists of Lukewarm, BigTerp and TTT.

This leaves a scumpool of Turtle, PPP, Alianna's replacement, Somnus and Marcistar.

My gut read is that Somnus is red. VOTE: Somnus

My initial response to this was why Somnus? You were hot and heavy on both PPP and Marcistar, so I was really scratching my head on your decision to vote Somnus. I went back through your ISO and post like this https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13286031 show your questioning of Somnus early(ish) in the game. Then reading through the above readlist, for a second time, your progression from PPP from scum read to null and Somnus from null to scum read seems very natural. Combine that with the readlist than I generally agree with and you're becoming more and more of a solid town read for me lately.

[PlmPestPlaY]

someone asked how to deal with Alianna's replacement
I don't move them to null
how their predecessor played matters
why would it not?

Agreed.

By that I mean they claim Marci as a scumlean, without really claiming them as a scumlean. They say

"I scumleaned marcistar because of popularity and the generic bot-like posts, same as BigTerp. I can understand it though, if there is a lack of time or posting off a phone."

It's like saying I read Marci as scum, but I understand why they seem scummy, so their not scum. What?!?!

There are 2 sides to everything. Why would I trust my own logic?

Would it convince anyone if I vowed to vote for whomever Lukewarm votes? Except for hammering ofc.

[BigTerp]

the IT guy at work now has this forum blocked
so I'm stuck phone posting during working hours
seriously taking a dump in my Cheerios here

That's not even funny!!! I feel for you.

[Frozen Angel]