Newbie 2090 (Game Over)

[Frozen Angel]

Vote Count 1-11

Somnus (3)[E2]:

Lukewarm, PlmPestPlaY, furtiveglance

marcistar (3)[E2]:

Mr Turtle, Alianna, TTTT

PlmPestPlaY (2):

Somnus, BigTerp

Not Voting (1):

marcistar

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Deadline: March 15, 5 am GMT.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-03-15 05:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- Searching for a replacement for Alianna.

[furtiveglance]

someone asked how to deal with Alianna's replacement
I don't move them to null
how their predecessor played matters
why would it not?

Agreed.

By that I mean they claim Marci as a scumlean, without really claiming them as a scumlean. They say

"I scumleaned marcistar because of popularity and the generic bot-like posts, same as BigTerp. I can understand it though, if there is a lack of time or posting off a phone."

It's like saying I read Marci as scum, but I understand why they seem scummy, so their not scum. What?!?!

There are 2 sides to everything. Why would I trust my own logic?

Would it convince anyone if I vowed to vote for whomever Lukewarm votes? Except for hammering ofc.

It wouldn't convince me, and I don't think it's the best strategy since we have no confirmed town. Also, if you never trust your own logic how can you play the game? Try not to sit on the fence so much. If you genuinely have no idea, say that, rather than making a point but walking it back in the next sentence.

[BigTerp]

someone asked how to deal with Alianna's replacement
I don't move them to null
how their predecessor played matters
why would it not?

I honestly don't know what's best here. Such a tough situation when someone gets replaced.

[BigTerp]

By that I mean they claim Marci as a scumlean, without really claiming them as a scumlean. They say

"I scumleaned marcistar because of popularity and the generic bot-like posts, same as BigTerp. I can understand it though, if there is a lack of time or posting off a phone."

It's like saying I read Marci as scum, but I understand why they seem scummy, so their not scum. What?!?!

There are 2 sides to everything. Why would I trust my own logic?

Would it convince anyone if I vowed to vote for whomever Lukewarm votes? Except for hammering ofc.

You cannot play this game solely based on others thoughts, opinions, etc. You have to have some sense of self and trust yourself with your reads and logic. Agreeing with and allowing others opinions to help shape your own is certainly fine, but you've gotta have something of your own to fall back on.

That would not convince me and I don't get what you're really even saying here.

[BigTerp]

someone asked how to deal with Alianna's replacement
I don't move them to null
how their predecessor played matters
why would it not?

Agreed.

By that I mean they claim Marci as a scumlean, without really claiming them as a scumlean. They say

"I scumleaned marcistar because of popularity and the generic bot-like posts, same as BigTerp. I can understand it though, if there is a lack of time or posting off a phone."

It's like saying I read Marci as scum, but I understand why they seem scummy, so their not scum. What?!?!

There are 2 sides to everything. Why would I trust my own logic?

Would it convince anyone if I vowed to vote for whomever Lukewarm votes? Except for hammering ofc.

It wouldn't convince me, and I don't think it's the best strategy since we have no confirmed town. Also, if you never trust your own logic how can you play the game? Try not to sit on the fence so much.

If you genuinely have no idea, say that, rather than making a point but walking it back in the next sentence.

This!!

[BigTerp]

This last post by PPP really has me now thinking they are just playing a really noob game and feeling extremely uncomfortable. Doesn't feel so much like scum scrambling/squirming, especially since they only currently have 2 votes on them.

[PlmPestPlaY]

someone asked how to deal with Alianna's replacement
I don't move them to null
how their predecessor played matters
why would it not?

I honestly don't know what's best here. Such a tough situation when someone gets replaced.

Your read of the starting player and their replacement are both seperate and relevant. Give more weight to the one you find more convincing. There is no subjectivity here, unless you don't want to be rude or something.

[BigTerp]

someone asked how to deal with Alianna's replacement
I don't move them to null
how their predecessor played matters
why would it not?

I honestly don't know what's best here. Such a tough situation when someone gets replaced.

Your read of the starting player and their replacement are both seperate and relevant. Give more weight to the one you find more convincing. There is no subjectivity here, unless you don't want to be rude or something.

Well said.

This is a very clear and lucid post following your last couple posts. You've got my head spinning a little here.

[Frozen Angel]

MorbidDino replaces in for Alianna. Welcome to the game!

[furtiveglance]

Welcome MorbidDino. You've been dropped right in the middle of the action

[MorbidDino]

Hello. And yes, it seems there is quite a bit of reading to do

[BigTerp]

Hello. And yes, it seems there is quite a bit of reading to do

Welcome. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the game so far.

[furtiveglance]

Hello. And yes, it seems there is quite a bit of reading to do

I see you joined yesterday. Have you played mafia before?

[Somnus]

Hey, Dino. Good-luck/Have fun.

[Mr Turtle]

Welcome MorbidDino.

[Somnus]

@MorbidDino

Just a heads-up: the player previously in your slot has a vote on marcistar. You may want to consider unvoting her until you’ve caught up with the game and have a feel for who you want to vote for, just as a general practice when you replace into games.

[furtiveglance]

Any more responses to my thoughts in 441?

[Somnus]

I disagree (I’m biased anyway) with a lot of it but agree with some of it. I’ll post a detailed response at some point today.

[Somnus]

Quick off-topic question, Furtive, because it's been bugging the hell out of me: Who is that in your avatar? I feel like it's a football coach or something.

[furtiveglance]

Quick off-topic question, Furtive, because it's been bugging the hell out of me: Who is that in your avatar? I feel like it's a football coach or something.

John Watson as portrayed by Martin Freeman in the BBC adaptation of Sherlock

[BigTerp]

Boy, this game really slowed down. I hope to see some more discussion today and look forward to hearing from MorbibDino.

REALLY disappointed in Marci's participation, or lack thereof. They are either scum hoping the heat dies off of them by staying quiet, or they are really disinterested at this point and are providing pretty much zero insight. Either way, I feel like it's time it needs addressed one way or the other. Someone said earlier that voting out a player because they are unproductive (or something to that effect) was not a good idea. I disagree. If they are providing pretty much nothing to the game, why keep them around? I still believe Marci is scum, and my biggest read to date. PPP has me back on the fence a bit with their latest post and I'm not convinced that Somnus is scum, but don't mind a bit of heat there.

So I'm moving my vote and putting Marci back at E-1

VOTE: MARCISTAR

[Somnus]

Shame that Alianna is being replaced, I thought they were a fun/chill presence in the game. Are there conventions on replacements - should we give the new player a clean slate or do we see it as the same slot?

I think I was townreading Alianna

.

Do you really not remember?

Updated readslist: In this list I am looking through ISOs and noting what catches my eye.

Lukewarm

: Is giving a lot of analysis which I love. Even if Lukewarm is mafia, they are greatly helping town with their gamesolving, and it doesn't seem fake/unsubstantiated/badly-motivated to me. They chose to scumread Somnus who is not an easy push, rather than just double down on Marcistar/PPP/me, who seemed to be the collective scumreads at the time. Lukewarm is my biggest townread.

All 9 players should at the very least appear like they're trying to solve the game though. The fact that only a few do is a problem. And in your hypothetical, if Lukewarm is mafia, then their gamesolving would not benefit town, as it would be scum-motivated. Also, I would argue that I'm possibly the easiest push in the game, as two or three players have at least claimed that they do/previously scum-read me based on tone or having light-hearted fun at the very start of the game when barely anyone was here.

BigTerp

: This player gives me a lot of thought. After an awkward start, they have grown into the game. I don't know whether I am happy about this or concerned by it. I do strongly agree with their reads in 436. They are clearly biased towards high frequency posting which I think could be a town tell, as mafia probably wouldn't defer to post count for their reads so openly. BigTerp gets a townread from me. I was on the fence, but they are not in my scumpool anymore.

I'm not super convinced that he's scum despite his entrance either. Maybe he can respond to this if/when he sees this, but I partially get the impression he's just willing to go with the crowd to try and survive (which will always result in a loss if you're blindly sheeping the wrong person), but at the same time I acknowledge that he and I are the only ones voting for Pimpest currently, so maybe not.

TTTT

: I am conflicted now. I was townreading them because they seemed to be playing differently to last game, but I don't like that they tried to play executioner in 308. Of those people, I'm not mafia, I don't think Lukewarm is mafia and the other two were just the easiest targets at the time. There hasn't been enough explaining of thoughts from TTTT. Why was it that you drew up a list of 4 potential elims, and how did you arrive at those names?


I still townlean TTTT, but I am less sure after their erratic posting, and I agree they are guilty of LAMIST posting. I disagree that TTTT should be locked town for 415. Mafia can put effort in as well

Subjectively disagree that he's playing differently than last game. That doesn't automatically or even likely make him scum in my eyes though. Far too many people are willingly going along with the executioner routine and not showing any autonomy whatsoever in their decisions of who/when to vote in this game. Two people who are blindly being town-read for rather minimal reasons don't get to dictate who the "dueling wagons" are, who you're allowed to vote for, or if/when you're allowed to declare intent to hammer. And yet, here we are. It's YOUR vote and not someone else's. This isn't directed exclusively at you, by the way, furtive.

Mr Turtle

: 98 , 109, 182, 202 and 389 are easy posts for anyone to make - questioning game strategy, questioning reasons for reads. This is limited in its usefulness - yes these questions make other players think and second-guess reads, but this kind of posting does not help me townread Mr Turtle. I would prefer to see more analysis and opinion of their own. As for their reads in 228 and 276 , I like that they gave scumreads first; the most important thing is to find mafia. They gave a fair criticism of my 'defend all wagons' strategy, which I see now is fairly dumb. I agree with these scumreads (of PPP and Marcistar) but not with their reasoning. Turtle wants PPP to be more 'confident' and says they made some posts which Turtle 'didn't get' - those aren't good reasons to scumread someone in my opinion. Turtle's main issue with Marcistar was that they didn't vote for me despite scumcasing me - this could just be Marci's playstyle. I had Turtle as a townread earlier but I think they are back in the null range.

You had him as your highest town-read when he had three posts though: an RVS vote, post 109, and post 182. I'm not questioning your read changing. Everyone SHOULD constantly be reassessing their reads. I'm questioning how those two posts went from making him your highest town read to being "easy posts for anyone to make/limited in its usefulness". He needs to start posting more, new or not. I'm going to point out here that you're agreeing with PPP being a scumread for two paragraphs from now.

Alianna

: Soon to be replaced. I think it's best to say null for that reason. I would have said town if I had to guess, however their townread on Somnus in 216 stood out to me, because they said 'similar reasons to Turtle' and I didn't think Somnus had earned it in the same way. But they're being replaced, so in the null range.

See above ^

PimPestPlay

: n00b. If they are mafia they are playing very level zero, and it would be daring to play this way as mafia, but thinking about this is just WIFOM. They are very self aware in their newness and none of their reads/analyses are grounded in anything other than either randomness, peer pressure, or bizarre assumptions/leaps of logic. In 421 they use the word 'should' which is throwing me off, as town is surely more likely to think in this way - we are all working together etc. I scumread them previously for doing things without reason, but that could just as easily be nooby town. One thing's for sure: this player is never getting nightkilled. I've never been a fan of the Darwinian 'vote out unhelpful players though'. I think I'll revise this read back to null.

Agree about the WIFOM. I don't agree that his two votes (both on me) have been random. One was an OMGUS/retaliation vote and one he admitted he's essentially doing what he's told/what is popular. I agree with the peer pressure, but as always, it should come down to what the motivation behind that peer pressure is. More importantly though, two paragraphs ago, you "agreed that he's a scum-read". In fact, less than 12 hours before this reads-list, you went from declaring intent to hammer marci, to rather going with PPP, to putting him at null.

Somnus

: A lot of posts, 1 readslist. That one readslist in 331 is all I really have to go on. They have pinned the two 'newbie' players as scumleans which I don't like. Despite being a high frequency poster, I haven't been townreading Somnus this game, and having read through Newbie 2087 I can't see much difference in their play this game. I'm giving Somnus a null/scum lean here.

Up until this post that I'm replying to, everyone had a grand total of 0-1 readslists. People don't usually type up a fully detailed readslist every day or two. As far as I can tell, even with this post, only 2 people have done a full readslist twice and a few players still have zero. Why does the experience of who I have in my current/subject to change scum-reads list matter? At the time, I also had two newbie players as my only two town reads. So if you're implying that I'm buddying with experienced players and picking on newer players, shouldn't I have several experienced players as town-leans (I currently have zero of them as town-leans, which obviously can't be the correct solve). Why is this even remotely relevant? How does this game in any way, shape, or form, look like how I played in Newbie 2087? I think they look worlds apart, but I'm biased.

Marcistar

: I can't get over their reluctance to voice thoughts on the game despite being on the brink of elimination. They don't seem to have any kind of agenda however, and like Lukewarm says, they aren't desperately self-preserving (e.g. by voting for Somnus). It's still a scum-lean from me.

I agree, and it's been frustrating, regardless of whether they're on the brink of elimination or not. It's hard to tell whether it's coming from unmotivated town or from scum, but ultimately, it all leads to the same anti-town results. I'm still waiting for responses to a couple of questions posed to her before I can reach a better conclusion...

...But if this is a legit reads list and not one made to look like a legit reads list, this is where your vote should be then, yeah?

Why is it not? Walk me through the progression of:

-Declaring intent to hammer marci

-Being scolded and told you're not allowed to touch the hammer (I'm only wording it this way because I know you're not the type to get offended by me making a harmless joke)

-Saying you'd rather vote for PimpestPlay but that you're both excited/optimistic that Marci is likely mafia

-Presumably going to bed

-Waking up and typing a reads-list and then placing a vote elsewhere, while Pimpest is no longer a scum-read (even though he was earlier in this very post). Because that looks really really really really really bad to me. Worse than anything else I may have been nit-picky about here.

To conclude then, my townbloc consists of Lukewarm, BigTerp and TTT.

This leaves a scumpool of Turtle, PPP, Alianna's replacement, Somnus and Marcistar.

My gut read is that Somnus is red. VOTE: Somnus

[Somnus]

Quick off-topic question, Furtive, because it's been bugging the hell out of me: Who is that in your avatar? I feel like it's a football coach or something.

John Watson as portrayed by Martin Freeman in the BBC adaptation of Sherlock

Also, thank-you. Definitely not a football coach then. Don't know why I thought he looked familiar.

[BigTerp]

Shame that Alianna is being replaced, I thought they were a fun/chill presence in the game. Are there conventions on replacements - should we give the new player a clean slate or do we see it as the same slot?

I think I was townreading Alianna

.

Do you really not remember?

Updated readslist: In this list I am looking through ISOs and noting what catches my eye.

Lukewarm

: Is giving a lot of analysis which I love. Even if Lukewarm is mafia, they are greatly helping town with their gamesolving, and it doesn't seem fake/unsubstantiated/badly-motivated to me. They chose to scumread Somnus who is not an easy push, rather than just double down on Marcistar/PPP/me, who seemed to be the collective scumreads at the time. Lukewarm is my biggest townread.

All 9 players should at the very least appear like they're trying to solve the game though. The fact that only a few do is a problem. And in your hypothetical, if Lukewarm is mafia, then their gamesolving would not benefit town, as it would be scum-motivated. Also, I would argue that I'm possibly the easiest push in the game, as two or three players have at least claimed that they do/previously scum-read me based on tone or having light-hearted fun at the very start of the game when barely anyone was here.

BigTerp

: This player gives me a lot of thought. After an awkward start, they have grown into the game. I don't know whether I am happy about this or concerned by it. I do strongly agree with their reads in 436. They are clearly biased towards high frequency posting which I think could be a town tell, as mafia probably wouldn't defer to post count for their reads so openly. BigTerp gets a townread from me. I was on the fence, but they are not in my scumpool anymore.

I'm not super convinced that he's scum despite his entrance either. Maybe he can respond to this if/when he sees this, but I partially get the impression he's just willing to go with the crowd to try and survive (which will always result in a loss if you're blindly sheeping the wrong person), but at the same time I acknowledge that he and I are the only ones voting for Pimpest currently, so maybe not.

TTTT

: I am conflicted now. I was townreading them because they seemed to be playing differently to last game, but I don't like that they tried to play executioner in 308. Of those people, I'm not mafia, I don't think Lukewarm is mafia and the other two were just the easiest targets at the time. There hasn't been enough explaining of thoughts from TTTT. Why was it that you drew up a list of 4 potential elims, and how did you arrive at those names?


I still townlean TTTT, but I am less sure after their erratic posting, and I agree they are guilty of LAMIST posting. I disagree that TTTT should be locked town for 415. Mafia can put effort in as well

Subjectively disagree that he's playing differently than last game. That doesn't automatically or even likely make him scum in my eyes though. Far too many people are willingly going along with the executioner routine and not showing any autonomy whatsoever in their decisions of who/when to vote in this game. Two people who are blindly being town-read for rather minimal reasons don't get to dictate who the "dueling wagons" are, who you're allowed to vote for, or if/when you're allowed to declare intent to hammer. And yet, here we are. It's YOUR vote and not someone else's. This isn't directed exclusively at you, by the way, furtive.

Mr Turtle

: 98 , 109, 182, 202 and 389 are easy posts for anyone to make - questioning game strategy, questioning reasons for reads. This is limited in its usefulness - yes these questions make other players think and second-guess reads, but this kind of posting does not help me townread Mr Turtle. I would prefer to see more analysis and opinion of their own. As for their reads in 228 and 276 , I like that they gave scumreads first; the most important thing is to find mafia. They gave a fair criticism of my 'defend all wagons' strategy, which I see now is fairly dumb. I agree with these scumreads (of PPP and Marcistar) but not with their reasoning. Turtle wants PPP to be more 'confident' and says they made some posts which Turtle 'didn't get' - those aren't good reasons to scumread someone in my opinion. Turtle's main issue with Marcistar was that they didn't vote for me despite scumcasing me - this could just be Marci's playstyle. I had Turtle as a townread earlier but I think they are back in the null range.

You had him as your highest town-read when he had three posts though: an RVS vote, post 109, and post 182. I'm not questioning your read changing. Everyone SHOULD constantly be reassessing their reads. I'm questioning how those two posts went from making him your highest town read to being "easy posts for anyone to make/limited in its usefulness". He needs to start posting more, new or not. I'm going to point out here that you're agreeing with PPP being a scumread for two paragraphs from now.

Alianna

: Soon to be replaced. I think it's best to say null for that reason. I would have said town if I had to guess, however their townread on Somnus in 216 stood out to me, because they said 'similar reasons to Turtle' and I didn't think Somnus had earned it in the same way. But they're being replaced, so in the null range.

See above ^

PimPestPlay

: n00b. If they are mafia they are playing very level zero, and it would be daring to play this way as mafia, but thinking about this is just WIFOM. They are very self aware in their newness and none of their reads/analyses are grounded in anything other than either randomness, peer pressure, or bizarre assumptions/leaps of logic. In 421 they use the word 'should' which is throwing me off, as town is surely more likely to think in this way - we are all working together etc. I scumread them previously for doing things without reason, but that could just as easily be nooby town. One thing's for sure: this player is never getting nightkilled. I've never been a fan of the Darwinian 'vote out unhelpful players though'. I think I'll revise this read back to null.

Agree about the WIFOM. I don't agree that his two votes (both on me) have been random. One was an OMGUS/retaliation vote and one he admitted he's essentially doing what he's told/what is popular. I agree with the peer pressure, but as always, it should come down to what the motivation behind that peer pressure is. More importantly though, two paragraphs ago, you "agreed that he's a scum-read". In fact, less than 12 hours before this reads-list, you went from declaring intent to hammer marci, to rather going with PPP, to putting him at null.

Somnus

: A lot of posts, 1 readslist. That one readslist in 331 is all I really have to go on. They have pinned the two 'newbie' players as scumleans which I don't like. Despite being a high frequency poster, I haven't been townreading Somnus this game, and having read through Newbie 2087 I can't see much difference in their play this game. I'm giving Somnus a null/scum lean here.

Up until this post that I'm replying to, everyone had a grand total of 0-1 readslists. People don't usually type up a fully detailed readslist every day or two. As far as I can tell, even with this post, only 2 people have done a full readslist twice and a few players still have zero. Why does the experience of who I have in my current/subject to change scum-reads list matter? At the time, I also had two newbie players as my only two town reads. So if you're implying that I'm buddying with experienced players and picking on newer players, shouldn't I have several experienced players as town-leans (I currently have zero of them as town-leans, which obviously can't be the correct solve). Why is this even remotely relevant? How does this game in any way, shape, or form, look like how I played in Newbie 2087? I think they look worlds apart, but I'm biased.

Marcistar

: I can't get over their reluctance to voice thoughts on the game despite being on the brink of elimination. They don't seem to have any kind of agenda however, and like Lukewarm says, they aren't desperately self-preserving (e.g. by voting for Somnus). It's still a scum-lean from me.

I agree, and it's been frustrating, regardless of whether they're on the brink of elimination or not. It's hard to tell whether it's coming from unmotivated town or from scum, but ultimately, it all leads to the same anti-town results. I'm still waiting for responses to a couple of questions posed to her before I can reach a better conclusion...

...But if this is a legit reads list and not one made to look like a legit reads list, this is where your vote should be then, yeah?

Why is it not? Walk me through the progression of:

-Declaring intent to hammer marci

-Being scolded and told you're not allowed to touch the hammer (I'm only wording it this way because I know you're not the type to get offended by me making a harmless joke)

-Saying you'd rather vote for PimpestPlay but that you're both excited/optimistic that Marci is likely mafia

-Presumably going to bed

-Waking up and typing a reads-list and then placing a vote elsewhere, while Pimpest is no longer a scum-read (even though he was earlier in this very post). Because that looks really really really really really bad to me. Worse than anything else I may have been nit-picky about here.

To conclude then, my townbloc consists of Lukewarm, BigTerp and TTT.

This leaves a scumpool of Turtle, PPP, Alianna's replacement, Somnus and Marcistar.

My gut read is that Somnus is red. VOTE: Somnus

Just FYI, and not sure if it's just me, but that blue font is REALLY hard to read.

I'm not super convinced that he's scum despite his entrance either. Maybe he can respond to this if/when he sees this,

but I partially get the impression he's just willing to go with the crowd to try and survive

(which will always result in a loss if you're blindly sheeping the wrong person), but at the same time I acknowledge that he and I are the only ones voting for Pimpest currently, so maybe not.

I feel like this couldn't be further from the truth. If you look back through the votes, I had the first vote on you, even though my reasoning was admittedly faulty https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13285550. I then moved off of you to Marci, admittedly the 3rd vote and putting them at E-2, but I gave plenty of reasoning. Then over to PPP, which you seem to like, but again with plenty of reasoning of my own https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13288112. I'm now back on Marci to get them to E-1, for reasons just explained. I see nothing indicating I'm blindly sheeping anyone or going along with the crowd. Quite the opposite, in fact. Would you like to elaborate?

You seem to STILL be caught up on my entrance. I already addressed that, with you specifically even. Not sure why that is still such an issue for you.

[Frozen Angel]