Newbie 2090 (Game Over)

[Frozen Angel]

Vote Count 1-12

marcistar (4)[E1]:

Mr Turtle, MorbidDino, TTTT, BigTerp

Somnus (3)[E2]:

Lukewarm, PlmPestPlaY, furtiveglance

PlmPestPlaY (1):

Somnus

Not Voting (1):

marcistar

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Deadline: March 15, 5 am GMT.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-03-15 05:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[Somnus]

I feel like this couldn't be further from the truth. If you look back through the votes, I had the first vote on you, even though my reasoning was admittedly faulty https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13285550. I then moved off of you to Marci, admittedly the 3rd vote and putting them at E-2, but I gave plenty of reasoning. Then over to PPP, which you seem to like, but again with plenty of reasoning of my own https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13288112. I'm now back on Marci to get them to E-1, for reasons just explained. I see nothing indicating I'm blindly sheeping anyone or going along with the crowd. Quite the opposite, in fact. Would you like to elaborate?

You seem to STILL be caught up on my entrance. I already addressed that, with you specifically even. Not sure why that is still such an issue for you.[/quote]

I'm not caught up on it. Furtive mentioned it in his readlist and it was an important part in sorting you. I mentioned that despite it, I'm not super convinced you're scum.

And yes, as far as the blue, I thought about posting here asking what the most readable color would be when replying to specific comments in a wall-post. If you have any recommendations, I'm all ears.

[Somnus]

Ehh...this is what happens when I try to snip just part of a quote. ^

[BigTerp]

I feel like this couldn't be further from the truth. If you look back through the votes, I had the first vote on you, even though my reasoning was admittedly faulty https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13285550. I then moved off of you to Marci, admittedly the 3rd vote and putting them at E-2, but I gave plenty of reasoning. Then over to PPP, which you seem to like, but again with plenty of reasoning of my own https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13288112. I'm now back on Marci to get them to E-1, for reasons just explained. I see nothing indicating I'm blindly sheeping anyone or going along with the crowd. Quite the opposite, in fact. Would you like to elaborate?

You seem to STILL be caught up on my entrance. I already addressed that, with you specifically even. Not sure why that is still such an issue for you.

I'm not caught up on it. Furtive mentioned it in his readlist and it was an important part in sorting you. I mentioned that despite it, I'm not super convinced you're scum.

And yes, as far as the blue, I thought about posting here asking what the most readable color would be when replying to specific comments in a wall-post. If you have any recommendations, I'm all ears.[/quote]

Fair enough. Thanks for addressing it.

I'd still like to hear why you think I'm at least partially going along with the crowd.

[Somnus]

It was more of an unsure gut-feel and still is. Not so much via votes, because as I acknowledged, you could easily just be sheeping one of the two bigger wagons the whole time and you haven't. More like buddying that I could potentially be mistaking as inauthentic. Gut-read that I'm not very confident in.

[BigTerp]

And yes, as far as the blue, I thought about posting here asking what the most readable color would be when replying to specific comments in a wall-post. If you have any recommendations, I'm all ears.

I don't have any specific recommendations, I just noticed how hard that blue was to read. What I do is typically preview my posts to make sure things are being quoted correctly (I routinely screw that up somehow) and to make sure the font color is readable. Easy way to check on something like that.

[Somnus]

I gotcha. I was using a light green at first and it looked like ass on my laptop, so I manually went back and changed each one of those to the blue I chose, which looks good on my laptop, but I know everyone has different setups/brightness/templates so I guess looking for colors that universally look acceptable. Anyway.

[Lukewarm]

Was kinda hoping to give Morbid a chance to get into the thread, but...

@Morbid. Don't feel like you have to read the entire game before you start talking.

I would prioritize. Reading Marci's iso is probably your most important place to start, she is 1 vote from being eliminated, and you are voting her. Read just her iso, then post your thoughts about her.

Then you can either just start engaging with posts after your rep in, or pick another player (either Somnus for being the second wagon, or someone that caught you attention either in current stuff or while reading Marci's iso)

[Lukewarm]

And yes, as far as the blue, I thought about posting here asking what the most readable color would be when replying to specific comments in a wall-post. If you have any recommendations, I'm all ears.

In general, I avoid colors because there are several back ground colors that people can use, and so different colors appear differently to everyone. (I am on mafia black, and so that blue shows up really clearly for me for example).


I would recommend strip quoting instead. Find the big post you want to engage with, hit the quote button, and then while you are on the preview page, make liberal use of the quote button at the top - right next to the Bold/Itallics/Underline button. This will give you several instances of quote boxes with the og persons quote, and your comments outside of the quote boxes

[BigTerp]

It was more of an unsure gut-feel and still is. Not so much via votes, because as I acknowledged, you could easily just be sheeping one of the two bigger wagons the whole time and you haven't. More like buddying that I could potentially be mistaking as inauthentic. Gut-read that I'm not very confident in.

Thanks for clarifying. This makes more sense to me.

[Lukewarm]

You just highlight the next part, hit that quote button, and it will add the tags around it for you. Giving you something like this:

Spoiler:

Updated readslist: In this list I am looking through ISOs and noting what catches my eye.

Lukewarm

: Is giving a lot of analysis which I love. Even if Lukewarm is mafia, they are greatly helping town with their gamesolving, and it doesn't seem fake/unsubstantiated/badly-motivated to me. They chose to scumread Somnus who is not an easy push, rather than just double down on Marcistar/PPP/me, who seemed to be the collective scumreads at the time. Lukewarm is my biggest townread.

Respond to this

BigTerp

: This player gives me a lot of thought. After an awkward start, they have grown into the game. I don't know whether I am happy about this or concerned by it. I do strongly agree with their reads in 436. They are clearly biased towards high frequency posting which I think could be a town tell, as mafia probably wouldn't defer to post count for their reads so openly. BigTerp gets a townread from me. I was on the fence, but they are not in my scumpool anymore.

Respond to this

TTTT

: I am conflicted now. I was townreading them because they seemed to be playing differently to last game, but I don't like that they tried to play executioner in 308. Of those people, I'm not mafia, I don't think Lukewarm is mafia and the other two were just the easiest targets at the time. There hasn't been enough explaining of thoughts from TTTT. Why was it that you drew up a list of 4 potential elims, and how did you arrive at those names?
I still townlean TTTT, but I am less sure after their erratic posting, and I agree they are guilty of LAMIST posting. I disagree that TTTT should be locked town for 415. Mafia can put effort in as well

Respond to this

Mr Turtle

: 98 , 109, 182, 202 and 389 are easy posts for anyone to make - questioning game strategy, questioning reasons for reads. This is limited in its usefulness - yes these questions make other players think and second-guess reads, but this kind of posting does not help me townread Mr Turtle. I would prefer to see more analysis and opinion of their own. As for their reads in 228 and 276 , I like that they gave scumreads first; the most important thing is to find mafia. They gave a fair criticism of my 'defend all wagons' strategy, which I see now is fairly dumb. I agree with these scumreads (of PPP and Marcistar) but not with their reasoning. Turtle wants PPP to be more 'confident' and says they made some posts which Turtle 'didn't get' - those aren't good reasons to scumread someone in my opinion. Turtle's main issue with Marcistar was that they didn't vote for me despite scumcasing me - this could just be Marci's playstyle. I had Turtle as a townread earlier but I think they are back in the null range.

ect

[BigTerp]

You just highlight the next part, hit that quote button, and it will add the tags around it for you. Giving you something like this:

Spoiler:

Updated readslist: In this list I am looking through ISOs and noting what catches my eye.

Lukewarm

: Is giving a lot of analysis which I love. Even if Lukewarm is mafia, they are greatly helping town with their gamesolving, and it doesn't seem fake/unsubstantiated/badly-motivated to me. They chose to scumread Somnus who is not an easy push, rather than just double down on Marcistar/PPP/me, who seemed to be the collective scumreads at the time. Lukewarm is my biggest townread.

Respond to this

BigTerp

: This player gives me a lot of thought. After an awkward start, they have grown into the game. I don't know whether I am happy about this or concerned by it. I do strongly agree with their reads in 436. They are clearly biased towards high frequency posting which I think could be a town tell, as mafia probably wouldn't defer to post count for their reads so openly. BigTerp gets a townread from me. I was on the fence, but they are not in my scumpool anymore.

Respond to this

TTTT

: I am conflicted now. I was townreading them because they seemed to be playing differently to last game, but I don't like that they tried to play executioner in 308. Of those people, I'm not mafia, I don't think Lukewarm is mafia and the other two were just the easiest targets at the time. There hasn't been enough explaining of thoughts from TTTT. Why was it that you drew up a list of 4 potential elims, and how did you arrive at those names?
I still townlean TTTT, but I am less sure after their erratic posting, and I agree they are guilty of LAMIST posting. I disagree that TTTT should be locked town for 415. Mafia can put effort in as well

Respond to this

Mr Turtle

: 98 , 109, 182, 202 and 389 are easy posts for anyone to make - questioning game strategy, questioning reasons for reads. This is limited in its usefulness - yes these questions make other players think and second-guess reads, but this kind of posting does not help me townread Mr Turtle. I would prefer to see more analysis and opinion of their own. As for their reads in 228 and 276 , I like that they gave scumreads first; the most important thing is to find mafia. They gave a fair criticism of my 'defend all wagons' strategy, which I see now is fairly dumb. I agree with these scumreads (of PPP and Marcistar) but not with their reasoning. Turtle wants PPP to be more 'confident' and says they made some posts which Turtle 'didn't get' - those aren't good reasons to scumread someone in my opinion. Turtle's main issue with Marcistar was that they didn't vote for me despite scumcasing me - this could just be Marci's playstyle. I had Turtle as a townread earlier but I think they are back in the null range.

ect

This was helpful for me as well. Thanks!!

[Somnus]

In general, I avoid colors because there are several back ground colors that people can use, and so different colors appear differently to everyone. (I am on mafia black, and so that blue shows up really clearly for me for example).

Got it.

I would recommend strip quoting instead. Find the big post you want to engage with, hit the quote button, and then while you are on the preview page, make liberal use of the quote button at the top - right next to the Bold/Itallics/Underline button. This will give you several instances of quote boxes with the og persons quote, and your comments outside of the quote boxes

Thank-you.

[Lukewarm]

TTTT

: I am conflicted now. I was townreading them because they seemed to be playing differently to last game, but I don't like that they tried to play executioner in 308. Of those people, I'm not mafia, I don't think Lukewarm is mafia and the other two were just the easiest targets at the time. There hasn't been enough explaining of thoughts from TTTT. Why was it that you drew up a list of 4 potential elims, and how did you arrive at those names?

I still townlean TTTT, but I am less sure after their erratic posting, and I agree they are guilty of LAMIST posting. I disagree that TTTT should be locked town for 415. Mafia can put effort in as well

Subjectively disagree that he's playing differently than last game. That doesn't automatically or even likely make him scum in my eyes though. Far too many people are willingly going along with the executioner routine and not showing any autonomy whatsoever in their decisions of who/when to vote in this game. Two people who are blindly being town-read for rather minimal reasons don't get to dictate who the "dueling wagons" are, who you're allowed to vote for, or if/when you're allowed to declare intent to hammer. And yet, here we are. It's YOUR vote and not someone else's. This isn't directed exclusively at you, by the way, furtive.

Furtive: There are a lot of anti-town points made about TTTT here, but end with TTTT still as town. I think that TTTT is town, so :shrug: - but this is probably +town for furtive. Scum!Furtive would likely have one of these goals:
-Put TTTT back into the elim pool | but he is still calling him town
-Pocket TTTT | but he is calling him out for several things
-Just look town with the reads list | but this is fairly inconsistent.

So, it seems more likely that these are just the jumbled thoughts of a townie, then a crafted one made by scum imo

Somnus: Name names. I am getting big "what everyone is doing is bad and scary" energy, without the specifics to back it up. Did TTTT call for a Marci wagon? Yes. Did I call for a Somnus wagon? Yes
But who are the "Far too many people are willingly going along with the executioner routine and not showing any autonomy whatsoever in their decisions of who/when to vote in this game" ?

I seem to recall TTTT calling for Dueling PPP and Marci wagons, and him distinctly not getting that. I called for a Somnus wagon, and everyone ignored me at first except PPP, who did sheep me.

Lets look at where people's votes are currently: Turtle voted Marci in 228, with an explanation of why he thought she was suspicious. BigTerp voted Marci in 233 along side a reads list with Marci listed as his strongest scum read. Alianna voted Marci in 312, right after calling Marci her strongest scum read in 310. TTTT voted Marci after calling her scummy.

Furtive later voted you, but also put out this very reads list with you down at the bottom. I voted you after scum casing you

So again I ask you who are the "Far too many people are willingly going along with the executioner routine and not showing any autonomy whatsoever in their decisions of who/when to vote in this game" ? Just PPP?

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm

: Is giving a lot of analysis which I love. Even if Lukewarm is mafia, they are greatly helping town with their gamesolving, and it doesn't seem fake/unsubstantiated/badly-motivated to me. They chose to scumread Somnus who is not an easy push, rather than just double down on Marcistar/PPP/me, who seemed to be the collective scumreads at the time. Lukewarm is my biggest townread.

All 9 players should at the very least appear like they're trying to solve the game though. The fact that only a few do is a problem. And in your hypothetical, if Lukewarm is mafia, then their gamesolving would not benefit town, as it would be scum-motivated. Also, I would argue that I'm possibly the easiest push in the game, as two or three players have at least claimed that they do/previously scum-read me based on tone or having light-hearted fun at the very start of the game when barely anyone was here.

Furtive: Not a ton of thoughts - town reading me is correct, so if town, great. But I also feel like I am a person that scum would want to town read, especially after our last game, so :shrug:

Somnus: Don't like. This post seems rooted in theory, and not this actually game. Like, does Somnus think I am scum? Does Somnus think that I am town, but playing devil's advocate? Am I a null read? It is impossible to tell from Somnus's post, because he takes no stance. He just sows doubt. That frankly gives me the heebie-jeebies.

[Lukewarm]

I like Furtive's 466 specifically pointing back to his reads list. I would expect scum trying to appear to be active / sparking conversations to try and spark conversations about OTHER slots, and not their own. I guess unless they felt like they had a perfectly crafted post that no one was talking about, but I would not call his earlier reads list perfectly crafted to get town read (its not lol)

Updated readslist:

In this list I am looking through ISOs and noting what catches my eye

.

I feel like this is actually an important line that Somnus overlooked. He explicitly says that he is doing full iso rereads on all of the players before making these comments. So changing reads makes sense.

I would like Furtive to respond to Somnus points on Turtle though. Am curious about that as well

[Lukewarm]

My read on Furtive keeps shifting back and forth, but I am back at him being town.

[Somnus]

Don't have much time at the moment, as I'm about to head out, but as a quick response:

-the people who I feel are being told who they are and aren't allowed to vote for and when are Furtive, Pimpest, and Alianna (who is no longer here)

-I had you listed as null in my reads list from two days ago and I still do. I don't pretend that I have all 8 players sorted out if I don't. I don't like that it felt like you were trying to butter TTTT up and "lock-towning him all the way to eLo" after the hydra game he mentioned that you forgot.

-I'm not at the bottom of his reads-list. I'm close to it though. Marci is. He has me listed as null-scum and Marci as straight-up scum. He said he was excited that Marci is probably scum, gave intent to hammer marci, was told "no", said he'd rather vote for Pimpest anyway, presumably slept on it, and started the day with a readslist where in the section about Mr. Turtle, he agreed that Pimpest was a scum-read but then listed him as null two paragraphs later, and put his vote neither on Marci or Pimpest. That should at the absolute set off some alarms for you.

Anyway, like I said, short on time and busy day ahead of me.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Strictly speaking Alianna's vote is no less valuable as MorbidDino's. So if someone is waiting to hammer because of that...
I'll post tomorrow. Yesterday I gave this forum too much attention.

[Frozen Angel]

marcistar is being prodded.

[furtiveglance]

Do you really not remember?

Turn of phrase, I didn't forget. I was null/town on Alianna

All 9 players should at the very least appear like they're trying to solve the game though. The fact that only a few do is a problem. And in your hypothetical, if Lukewarm is mafia, then their gamesolving would not benefit town, as it would be scum-motivated. Also, I would argue that I'm possibly the easiest push in the game, as two or three players have at least claimed that they do/previously scum-read me based on tone or having light-hearted fun at the very start of the game when barely anyone was here.

I townread Lukewarm because they seem to be gamesolving. If you think they are mafia, say that directly.

Subjectively disagree that he's playing differently than last game. That doesn't automatically or even likely make him scum in my eyes though. Far too many people are willingly going along with the executioner routine and not showing any autonomy whatsoever in their decisions of who/when to vote in this game. Two people who are blindly being town-read for rather minimal reasons don't get to dictate who the "dueling wagons" are, who you're allowed to vote for, or if/when you're allowed to declare intent to hammer. And yet, here we are. It's YOUR vote and not someone else's. This isn't directed exclusively at you, by the way, furtive.

Townreading will always be subjective day 1. Saying 'minimal reasons' is pretty pointless. I don't mind being influenced by players I think are town, but even so I came to my own conclusions.

Agree about the WIFOM. I don't agree that his two votes (both on me) have been random. One was an OMGUS/retaliation vote and one he admitted he's essentially doing what he's told/what is popular. I agree with the peer pressure, but as always, it should come down to what the motivation behind that peer pressure is. More importantly though, two paragraphs ago, you "agreed that he's a scum-read". In fact, less than 12 hours before this reads-list, you went from declaring intent to hammer marci, to rather going with PPP, to putting him at null.

I've done a U-turn on PPP. I think they are more casual than nervous.

Up until this post that I'm replying to, everyone had a grand total of 0-1 readslists. People don't usually type up a fully detailed readslist every day or two. As far as I can tell, even with this post, only 2 people have done a full readslist twice and a few players still have zero. Why does the experience of who I have in my current/subject to change scum-reads list matter? At the time, I also had two newbie players as my only two town reads. So if you're implying that I'm buddying with experienced players and picking on newer players, shouldn't I have several experienced players as town-leans (I currently have zero of them as town-leans, which obviously can't be the correct solve). Why is this even remotely relevant? How does this game in any way, shape, or form, look like how I played in Newbie 2087? I think they look worlds apart, but I'm biased.

True that everyone has only given 1 or 2 readslists. My point is that looking through your ISO I didn't see a lot of subjective analysis of your own, it's more questioning reads. The biggest scumread you have is now a townread of mine, and an easy target to boot.

...But if this is a legit reads list and not one made to look like a legit reads list, this is where your vote should be then, yeah?

Why is it not? Walk me through the progression of:

-Declaring intent to hammer marci

-Being scolded and told you're not allowed to touch the hammer (I'm only wording it this way because I know you're not the type to get offended by me making a harmless joke)

-Saying you'd rather vote for PimpestPlay but that you're both excited/optimistic that Marci is likely mafia

-Presumably going to bed

-Waking up and typing a reads-list and then placing a vote elsewhere, while Pimpest is no longer a scum-read (even though he was earlier in this very post). Because that looks really really really really really bad to me. Worse than anything else I may have been nit-picky about here.[/color]

I think Marcistar leaving made me second guess it a bit because they seemed like bad town. And as I wasn't getting a hammer on Marcistar immediately, I put some more pressure on my second biggest scumread. Anyway, I think it might be good to have you in the game for another day, as you are causing some enjoyable tension with Lukewarm and TTTT.

[furtiveglance]

UNVOTE: Somnus

[furtiveglance]

Intent to hammer Marcistar

.
Have we been here before?

[furtiveglance]

In 495 I meant to say it seemed like Marcistar was bored town, not bad town.

[BigTerp]

Intent to hammer Marcistar

.
Have we been here before?

Marcistar has been prodded. But, at this point, I don't care. Hammer away!!