Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame

[VP Baltar]

. I don't have a meta on you but you seem experienced...do you think calling townies lazy is likely to get them onside?

No, but I also don't have the WIM at the moment. Like I said, the the math vote has me tilted for the sheer nonsense.

I'll take a break right now, get some coffee and try to not be mad so I can respond if people have actual questions.

[Mizzytastic]

If the bent four is in the corner it actually ends up being a ko if the opponent plays there first and there aren't too many outside liberties.. In theory it's possible to keep this ko going until there is nothing big enough to respond to, so in this situation the corne is considered dead

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Official Votecount 2.8

VP Baltar (6): Scorpious, tenebrousluminary, Nero Cain, Frogsterking, fireisredsir, MathBlade

[E-3]

tenebrousluminary (2): MalcolmTucker, Save The Dragons
Frogsterking (1): VP Baltar
MalcolmTucker (1): April Ludgate
Enchant (1): skitter30
skitter30 (1): Enchant
fireisredsir (1): Yeet
Cape90 (1): Datisi

Not Voting (3): DeasVail, Eyes without a face, Cape90

With 17 players alive, it takes 9 votes to achieve an elimination.

Day 2 will end in (expired on 2022-03-16 09:20:00).

click here for joined mod iso.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'd be intrigued to know VP's thoughts on how April has played the game so far, and what they make of what I thought was April's fairly flimsy mafia case against me.

My thoughts on the Ari slot:

I didn't really have a scum read on Ari. I could see an argument being made against this slot, but their frustration with the game also struck me as genuine.

As for April's case on you, IDK. April plays and thinks about the game very differently than me. I don't find it all that convincing, but I do appreciate pressure being applied in novel places today.

The biggest point against April I think is that she could be scum trying to pocket me. I found it a little weird that she agreed that my Cape case was decent, when what I posted would actually take a little time to fact check to see if what I was saying was accurate.

Could be laziness, and April certainly had other things to reread, but given where she put me on her list, I'd think she'd want to check out my thoughts for accuracy/scum motivation.

I don't hate this line of reasoning actually, would be a clever play from April if you're town and eventually get eliminated.

[VP Baltar]

does town imply that they think cape's case is bad and scummy and frustrating while stating that he is a top scumread for unrelated reasons, while also never really pushing there in earnest?

This us an incredible misrep. I did push there. It was how I spent the first half of my day. People are obviously not eager to join a cape wagon. I understand to some degree that there isn't a slam dunk case there, so I can only point out what I see. I'm not going to act belligerent about getting my way if I'm not managing to convince people with the facts I've pointed out repeatedly.

As far as Nero and do I call out his case as being BS reasons and a smear campaign even if I think he might be town? yes! Of course I do. Some town players do this and act as honorary scum, as previously stated. Pointing out how bunk what he is saying actually is does not reflect poorly on me, and you saying it does is kind of bullshit.

[VP Baltar]

I don't hate this line of reasoning actually, would be a clever play from April if you're town and eventually get eliminated.

I'm fairly sure that tactic is pretty explicitly stated in Flavor's guide to scum.

I'm not saying that is definitely what happened, but if I do die today, it should be remembered in the future.

I don't love calling it out because it isn't like I have many allies in this game rn, but I need to assume I will die and plan for town's long term success here.

[fireisredsir]

This us an incredible misrep. I did push there. It was how I spent the first half of my day. People are obviously not eager to join a cape wagon. I understand to some degree that there isn't a slam dunk case there, so I can only point out what I see. I'm not going to act belligerent about getting my way if I'm not managing to convince people with the facts I've pointed out repeatedly.

eh i think your iso tells a different story. the key word there is "earnest". you pushed him a little about his hammer, then he wallposted you, then you talked about how the wallpost was bad for a while, then a bit more about his hammer, then you moved on to other things. but anyway the main point is about your reasons, not about whether you pushed or not. when asked about it later you said he was your top scumread but that it was for how he acted around the hammer and that he had done nothing today. that's weak, and i don't believe that you believe that.

when you were arguing back against his wallpost, you were implying that he was scummy for it. but later, that apparently didn't factor into your scumread. i think that's because you know he's town, you know the case looks towny even if it's not very good, and so you didn't want to list it as a reason. you wanted to stick to the scummy actions of his, just like you're telling other people to do, those are safe and objective. that doesn't feel honest, doesn't feel like town

As far as Nero and do I call out his case as being BS reasons and a smear campaign even if I think he might be town? yes! Of course I do. Some town players do this and act as honorary scum, as previously stated. Pointing out how bunk what he is saying actually is does not reflect poorly on me, and you saying it does is kind of bullshit.

that's not what im talking about. you are obv allowed and expected to point out when a case made against you is bad even if he might be town. your mistake was in 3603. that's not pointing out BS reasons. that's creating a scum narrative for his play. and you and i both know that you don't really believe he's scum, so why did you do it? maf has motivation to appeal to the crowd and discredit his case, they don't have to be honest about how they feel. why would you do it as town?

[VP Baltar]

you know the case looks towny even if it's not very good

What does this mean?

[Nero Cain]

Some town players do this and act as honorary scum

learn some personal responsibility or something, shesh.

[VP Baltar]

you don't really believe he's scum, so why did you do it?

He could be scum here, but I'm not entirely sold on that. Said this like 50 times. I do think Nero waffling very slightly on my wagon is worth calling out because he did the same thing in a more dramatic fashion yesterday. Anyone who pushes a wagon and then backs away at the moment of truth gets scum points.

Like, what you're saying is a completely absurd statement that essentially boils down to "do not point out things that are potentially scummy unless you are ready to go all in on calling that person scum".

You know very well that's not true and you're either being biased here or trying to score what you think are easy points to get my wagon over the hump. I can point out a bunch of times this game you were implying I did scummy things without actually calling me scum. So I don't even get what the point you're trying to make is.

[Cape90]

blood pacts do sound pretty scummy...

I guess it does.

I want to bring attention to

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... otter-Mash

this mash. I was town here. Now I will just kinda give an explanation of things that happened in terms of this whole pact thing or whatever.

-So I townread this guy Macdougall (we were both town). Like 2 days in a row, Mac proposes that we CFD onto 2 people, really close to the end of each day. I follow both of these quickly and kill 2 mafia. I only did this because I trusted the person that was proposing the counterwagon so much.
-So this other person Chelsea, she was mafia this game, had an early suspicion on my slot day 1 and voted me.
-Fast forward to day 2, I am voting someone, and Chelsea hops on this vote with me.
-I notice this and question Chelsea on why they are on a vote with me and if they still suspect me.
-She told me that she still suspected me for the same reasons they suspected me day 1 (at this point she never swapped ship to me or whatever).

Tying that back into this, I questioned Datisi this game, because their play of going on some votes with me today reminded me of exactly what Chelsea did in that mash and it gave me bad vibes.

[VP Baltar]

Some town players do this and act as honorary scum

learn some personal responsibility or something, shesh.

Yeah ok. You've played like shit all game if you're town but clearly that's on me.

Seems like you're just trying to get me tilted, but I don't fall for bait like that. Better than you have tried.

[Nero Cain]

3600 was a joke

[tenebrousluminary]

Barring extreme cases such as townies lying about their role, it is your job as town to get the right reads.

I may not be extremely great at this job, but I will still acknowledge my responsibility in the equation.

[Cape90]

3600 was a joke

I knew that, but for some reason, it just kinda made my gears turn lmao

[Nero Cain]

Yeah ok. You've played like shit all game if you're town

I mean maybe?

I thought Wu was scummy and then I was less sure when there was meta evidence presented for why he wasn't scum and then you and Skitter continuously ignored that and said I was scummy for not having a static read. Meanwhile, you pushed least 3 town in me, Wu and HEM. Maybe you could make the argument that Wu was so bad that he needed to be flipped and that it was good play on your part but if you are town I don't see what's great about you so stop being a pot or w/e identify as.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah ok. You've played like shit all game if you're town

I mean maybe?

I thought Wu was scummy and then I was less sure when there was meta evidence presented for why he wasn't scum and then you and Skitter continuously ignored that and said I was scummy for not having a static read. Meanwhile, you pushed least 3 town in me, Wu and HEM. Maybe you could make the argument that Wu was so bad that he needed to be flipped and that it was good play on your part but if you are town I don't see what's great about you so stop being a pot or w/e identify as.

Like I said, I don't regret pushing the Wu yeet. He was a low utility player who had a non-zero chance of flipping scum, and who a lot of people talked about, meaning there is higher potential for future information as slots on that wagon get revealed.

If you are actually town here, I have reached out to you more than once to try and resolve these differences we have in seeing the game and you keep trying to take cheap, stupid shots at me. Be more mature and talk to me if you want me to engage you again. I asked you for your perspective on skitter awhile back now and you just basically ignored me. It's incredibly frustrating to me if you're actually town in this scenario because I make good faith efforts to think about your alignment, and there is no reciprocation. And I don't really want to have pointless convos that just bloat the thread.

[Frogsterking]

I don't feel comfortable with Wu being described as a low utility player; I believed random utility was all Wu had to offer. I would describe Enchant as a low utility player. I thought Wu was a player who could spontaneously provide utility at pretty much any point in the game by striking a conversation with a low info slot and getting them to open up with AI information or by adding lightness to the game making it less stressful and easier to find motivation to solve. I didn't see Wu as a player who would help with the gamesolving by identifying the useful information generated as being AI and persuading others, I thought they just had a chance to provide utility by making more AI information available at random points in the game. The contrast between my conception of Wu's slot and a true low utility slot would be someone likely to provide nothing while inducing townies to rage or avoid looking at the game thread (like Ari.)

Ari is actually a more interesting counter example to Wu than someone like Enchant because Ari was a player who could be expected to assist with the gamesolving and identifying potential AI information and was also a low utility player because they discouraged other players and made the thread unreadable. This is another part of why I was so opposed to the Wu execution, with this many players I was concerned about a "too many chefs in the kitchen" situation where a handful of active posters thunderdome each other dogmatically and there's no listening or potential for organic conversation and the less active townies are unmotivated to become more engaged.

[Save The Dragons]

VOTE: April Ludgate

[Eyes without a face]

eyes town reading VP for explaining some reads on p 24 continues to be horrible

Nero repeating himself like a broken record is terrible.

Ok, so it's a bad reason to TR someone 9from your Pov). Fine. I got it. Everyone else did. Now what? Do you want me to flip my read on him for no reason just because you don't like it? Would you be happy then or will you flip your broken record to side-B: "eyes changing their read on VP for no apparent reason is horrible" (big accordion solo)

[Frogsterking]

Eyes are you proposing a Nero wagon?

[Nero Cain]

I don't care what your read of him is but there should be a progression and a lack of progression makes you look informed whether its that you know that he's town or that he's your buddy and you are expressing a town read on him so you don't have to vote him.

[Save The Dragons]

i'm confused about the people saying there's like no scum reads, i have plenty of people i'd lim in a heartbeat.

[Nero Cain]

also, I feel like most ppl haven't even commented on you or what I said.

[Eyes without a face]

Can you explain your VP/Enchant/STD/Deas reads for me?

VP provided a read list early on D1 supported with

some reasoning

. I didn't care about the reads themselves but I did like that he cared enough to provide the reasoning behind them. It's evidently hard to find logical reasoning to explain one's reads when the game hadn't even developed enough and scum would be quite wary of not only providing reads (which is the easy part) but also find reasons to justify such reads.

Enchant because of the Vig claim which I don't believe any scum in their right mind would fake claim on D1. Not even if they were informed that there is no Vig would scum have the heart to claim something they know they will never be able to prove.

STD play is calm and doesn't have a gung ho element but rather is trying to solve the game at their own pace.

Deas is pure gut from their posting on D2. Their posts do not strike me as agenda'y or fabricated.

Disclaimer: I apologize if I had used the wrong pronouns for anyone. I try to use what I remember and if I'm not sure I use they to avoid offending anyone.

[Yeet]

I don’t really get the case on VP can someone quote/summarize it?