Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame

[MalcolmTucker]

To add to the above, that's not to say Nero can't end up being mafia further down the line if VP does end up being town. But the idea of Nero/Wu together never worked. In fact Nero being mafia who pushed an easy town slot to potentially get rid of but being reluctant to go ahead with it (with solid reasoning for doing so early on) would arguably make more sense than them being teammates. Unless you're actually mafia yourself and know that's not the case.

VP's continual theory that Nero/Wu may have been mafia together and that Nero was potentially backing away from Wu because they were teammates really made no sense at all to me but they notably kept pushing it, in posts 1339, 1344, 1939 and 2128 to give just some examples.

It just doesn't chime. Nero was basically the first player in the game to mention that Wu was not contributing a heavy amount and that they were coming across as suspicious for it. I don't see why there'd be any benefit to throwing your teammate into the mix like that early in the game...in retrospect without that post it's quite possible there'd have never been a bandwagon against Wu at all in turn one.

I dunno, the way VP just kept pushing this felt strange, as if it was potential mafia who'd come up with a theory to push Nero/Wu and who felt like they couldn't drop it without seeming suspicious for doing so.

Hood people what happened in your hood overnight?

Nero pushed me to talk about reads. I told him I'm not doing that in a hood with a potential scum, and that it was kinda antitown to push it repeatedly.

That was all.

I doubt the hood is gonna get used much until we descum it

Your reads are surely going to be seen when you post them here anyway? Like, I get playing your cards close to your chest sometimes, but mafia are going to find out what a lot of us think because that is a natural condition of playing the game, and you can basically repeat whatever was being said in your hood anyway.

Furthermore, in the bottom of 266, they treat me like they know I am town.

Can you give me specifics of what you're seeing there?

I think we should consolidate on one of HEM/Tenebro to push pressure and advance game state rather than splitting

Isn't town's biggest power early in large games driving dueling wagons? That's how you get good info for future use. Why do you think we should focus on one and not the other here?

I scumread Tenebro hard based on 116 and the attempt to defuse suspicion by essentially saying it’s just a bandwagon

I don't remember doing this. What do you mean?

“I’m so popular, everyone is looking at me” is basically a degradation of the reason to actually suspect you and dismisses it as a trend rather than a veritable case.

I am not sure how you got that idea from what I wrote, but okay.

It would be difficult for me to think any case against me had merit when I know it to be wrong.

Yes, but I would think you would at least go and defend your position or acknowledge the votes on you. Your playstyle so far has been very dismissive and I find that that typically comes from scum.

Fua looks objectively terrible in this exchange, and isn't even scumreading Tenesbro's 116 for the correct reason (which is that reads like pocketing of Yeet.)

Also, VOTE: fua

Vote Wu or HEM

Perhaps I am able to ascertain why you'd think that. You may have a point.

VOTE: Dragons

Vote Wu or HEM.

Large games should consolidate D1 as fast as possible or we will end up at 100+ pages for D1 and that's just annoying later in the game.

I don't want to right now. If you want me to consider a popular vote target, wait for Nordom's replacement.

That's not Wu or HEM.

Large games are about compromise early on and moving things forward. We will get more info out of running up these Jabronis than we will out of you single voting dragons.

Be a team player!

I'd be interested to know where VP's thoughts stand on tenebros so far, and vice versa. Looking through their ISO there are a lot of soft interactions here without much of an indication as to what VP or tenebros necessarily think of each other as individual players. Like there isn't really a strong defence of tenebros while under pressure, but there's an attempt to paint Fua in a bad light after an exchange with tenebros, for example.

I don't think Cape pushing the hammer on Wu (whether intentional or unintentional) is particularly problematic given lots of players spent basically 10-20 pages desperate for the turn to come to an end. Wu was clearly seen as the strongest consistent candidate by that point for elimination despite uncertainties over their role.

That's not why he hammered though. He stated extensive reasons that were anything but "this is a consensus read for the day".

Also, why hammer without asking for a claim?

I feel like Wu would have surely claimed long before the actual hammer was dropped. They'd been under suspicion for most of the game and remained prime target by that point.

I'd be interested to know where VP's thoughts stand on tenebros so far, and vice versa. Looking through their ISO there are a lot of soft interactions here without much of an indication as to what VP or tenebros necessarily think of each other as individual players. Like there isn't really a strong defence of tenebros while under pressure, but there's an attempt to paint Fua in a bad light after an exchange with tenebros, for example.

I haven't found tenebros all that scummy, and fua did look like shit in that interaction, as well as for not killing/not claiming target this morning.

You seem very eager to shade me on flimsy reasons.

I don't think my main reason as stated earlier is particularly flimsy - you regularly claimed Nero was suspect for pushing Wu without voting for them despite the fact Nero/Wu weren't going to end up being teammates since Nero was the first person to shade Wu when there was no heat on them, an illogical strategy for two mafia to pursue. I found that incredibly strange and it felt a bit like you were potentially pursuing that line because it would have been odd to back off.

I found that incredibly strange and it felt a bit like you were potentially pursuing that line because it would have been odd to back off.

Actually my point made total sense and what you're arguing is dumb. If you think I'm afraid to switch positions as scum, you don't know my game at all.

Nero banging for Wu's yeet for half the day and then suddenly not being interested for extremely vague meta reasons when the Wu wagon got real is Hella suspicious on its face.

Nero was the first person to throw any shade on Wu at all. Reading the game early on I found it strange how nobody commented on the fact Wu was regularly posting but giving no reads or opinions. Nero is the first to point this out, and it's the first, initial point in the game that Wu came under any pressure. From there it never really quite went away fully, leading to the eventual elimination. If the two of them had been teammates then this would have quite frankly been dreadful play and this should have been apparent in day one.

I'm perfectly open to the idea Nero saw an easy day one target and pushed that on solid evidence without fully sticking to it, and there's a case to be made this is what happened if you're town, but from your POV this argument would only work if you were convinced Wu was actually town. There was just no logical means by which they were on the mafia team together barring a massive error by Nero wherein he stuck his teammate into the shit when there were plenty of other quiet or inactive players to target.

Perhaps I am able to ascertain why you'd think that. You may have a point.

VOTE: Dragons

Vote Wu or HEM.

Large games should consolidate D1 as fast as possible or we will end up at 100+ pages for D1 and that's just annoying later in the game.

THIS right here is why my sequence on Datisi was not wrong. We need to get things moving and start pushing in this kind of game since opinions will be far more fragmented. The probability that close to half the people in this game have the same top scumread is far lower than in a smaller game. That means we need to compromise and not always vote our top scumread at any given point. We don't want to dilly dally the whole day and scramble with no info at the end. I am saying this now so that we do not get caught in problems down the line. Just to put my money where my mouth is, I will VOTE: humaneatingmonkey, even though my last impression of him is light town (although I feel more nullish on him anyway).

Yes, Aristeia's townread on Datisi gives me some pause on him being scum. No, that doesn't mean I still don't want more pressure on him and to run him up. If people want to start voting Datisi again I will gladly switch back. And me pointing out that I didn't think many people at the time had a favorable opinion on him.

I haven't fully caught up (nor do I intend to in such a large game) but it seems things have changed. It is concerning that people are using my recent activity to discredit the townie vibes that I gave earlier. It is possible that this is scum motivated to keep the PoE wider, but it seems more likely to me that this is just poor activity logic.

Here is a point on day one when both Yeet/VP argue for pushing the game forward to the point where they'd basically be keen for an elimination so the thread doesn't get too clogged. But now Cape is suspicious for hammering someone they were largely fine to eliminate all along.

Also of course this has Yeet voting for a now night-eliminated mason even though they didn't really believe they were mafia at the time. Hardly the approach of players fine for a round to drag out to be ultra-careful and not end up forcing a role reveal.

Increasingly don't think there's any reason the two players here can't be mafia together.

yeah, again, this is where VP's insinuations don't match what he's actually saying. when asked to commit to some actual individual scumreads, he lists 6 people (3297) and none of them are nero, but here he's discrediting nero in a way that can only imply that he thinks nero is scum. it's just shade for the sake of shade and he doesn't actually believe it. i don't know why anyone would do that unless they're maf

If VP is mafia, I'd wager there's at least one mafia in that list of six who's been thrown in there to create some distance. Maybe Yeet possibly? I feel like Yeet's in this weird position where there's a few players who have cast doubt on them at times without ever going in any further on the case.

I think we should consolidate on one of HEM/Tenebro to push pressure and advance game state rather than splitting

Isn't town's biggest power early in large games driving dueling wagons? That's how you get good info for future use. Why do you think we should focus on one and not the other here?

I just finished reading through page 10, so I'm still in catch up. Here is kind of what I have for reads out of that so far:


Town:

Frogsterking

- early attack on Yeet over game delay is tinfoil I'd expect from town FK

Yeet

- wild noob read after wild noob read. Somewhat question if Yeet is not an alt though, in which case maybe this means nothing.

fireisredsir

- has independent thought, calling out post 116 as bad is good. Also seems to not mind poking people, which I appreciate.

skitter30

- Kind of like their pressure on Datisi, but think the over defense of tenesbro is unwarranted. This is probably closer to a null read than a townread in terms of confidence, but I like that she is mixing it up.

Cape90

- probably town for finding frogster town and asking pretty open questions.

Ari

- I like her pressure and vote on monkey when he was being kind of ridiculous.


Null:

DeasVail

- commenting, but not doing a ton. Maybe lean townish.


Scum:

fua

- I find the hard scum read of tenesbro a little contrived, and possibly piling on to a popular opinion in thread.

monkey

- The whole intereaction with ari looks like monkey got over confident with a poke and couldn't explain the position.

why do you think ari and i are tvt? i came out of that scumreading ari.

so you think ari and datisi are scum buddies here? idgi

it is unfortunate Dats views the world through the lens of cautious paranoia but its also kind of endearing <3

in 90% of cases, yes.

That LimLo in Guardians was excruciating!

HEM dropped in a bit aggressively, Ari posted a readslist where he was at the bottom, and he asked her to elaborate on all of them.

Yes, and HEM was flipping a shit somewhat unprompted when Ari asked for clarification. His overreaction to that whole situation was why he got run up. It read as scum misreading and overreacting to the intent of a question.

What is the case on Ari? I'm going to give up on reading pages of spam shitting from a bunch of people.

Ari, vote Wu.

Furthermore VP before I posted the game was wagoning two masons
It was terrible play before I even posted.

Actually, I was pushing for Wu or HEM flip, and that's where the day was heading, not toward both the masons getting wagoned. You just didn't read the game before you claimed.

I'm not even mad at you for claiming. Whatever. Not how I would have played it, but I get where you're coming from. It's the same logic as our last game when I cleared A50.

But listen, you spamming the thread to make the same points again and again is not helpful. You only need to say it once. The beauty of forum mafia is that your words are immortalized forever and people can refer back to them.

When I say loud, I mean you spam the thread and say the same things repeatedly and insist you're right even if lots of other people disagree. It's exhausting and makes catching up impossible for people.

I'm trying to work with you. if you have an actual Ari case, post that shit.

There’s a wagon on Ari for a reason
Stop focusing on me if you’re town.

WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THE ARI WAGON?????????

Like I asked for this case more than once, and "she argued with Hem and doesn't vote WU" is not a fucking case. So ELI5


And I'm talking to you because you're 50% of the posts in a LARGE GAME since you entered. If you would chill the fuck out and stop trying to big dick energy the whole game, we could land somewhere good today. There have been 12+ pages added since I got up 5 hours ago, and you can't tell me that is quality work happening in those pages because I read half of them before I had to come here to the future and plead with you to have some sense.

Ari, you want to join me on the Wu wagon?

Math, you officially have the most posts in the game. Let that sink in.

It’s a pretty outlandish claim all of herself, VP, Skitter, Datisi, fire, and Yeet are all town.
It’s even more outlandish DV, tene, Cape, and Nero are all town.

Yeah, what you're saying is fair here. There has to be some scum in there when that is half the town.

Did ari say both the mason wagons are pure? If so I missed that in the pages I didn't read

it's in the way that you dismiss the case against ari and have announced that the past 20 pages are barely worth reading. it sends the wrong message.

please consider this post when backreading ari. i would like to know what you think about it, even if it's a dissenting opinion.

I can see the case you're making. What I'm trying to weigh is that ari and mathblade just finished a bitter AF game, and it's behind them, but also I am certain there are tender egos there. So it's like, is ari just acting contrarian to Math because of that?

Math did come in this game and start yelling in a similar way to that past game. I wasn't even alive when that fight happened and it was kind of triggering for me.

Ari's replaced, so I'm not really that attached and if we just yeet that slot D1, then whatever. D1 in a large isn't that important.

I think Wu looks not great in wagon positions and the fact his wagon falls apart at e-5 everytime is a red flag for me, but I'm not lockscum on anyone at this point and can be convinced to compromise.

But also, Ari's readslist was kind of a turd.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the possibility of VP/April being teammates together? I feel like it's a definite possibility and there's nothing in ISOs to necessarily discredit it for the most part.

VP feels like they're regularly throwing a lot of softball questions at Ari early game with fairly soft defences of them as well. They don't necessarily commit to the slot being full-on town because that potentially makes any association all too clear, but there are notably a few questions to the rest of the town against Ari - what's the case against them etc, in case VP was maybe reluctant to mount too strong a defence in case somebody had a more solid read on them. Likewise VP discredits their readlist to potentially create some distance between them, but doesn't necessarily elaborate on what's wrong with it at all.

I'd be intrigued to know VP's thoughts on how April has played the game so far, and what they make of what I thought was April's fairly flimsy mafia case against me.

Sorry Fire, but none of this makes sense from the point of me and VP being teammates. I'm genuinely baffled at this because your reads have been solid so far but VP has consistently been someone I've applied pressure to. There's no incentive to most of these posts from a mafia POV given VP has been under consistent pressure.

[fireisredsir]

This makes me a little sad because I’d like to think that the vibing is genuine but it’s okay, I get it.

it could be ): but i mean if ive been wrong about all the directions so far that we've pushed together (nordom, i think fua too, tene, VP) then im gonna start getting nervous. if tene or VP (or fua? idr if you pushed them too) are maf then i will be more likely to trust you again

[MalcolmTucker]

Can someone actually outline what the actual case is against me beyond vibes and players who replaced in and made their decision on me without reading back on any previous posts? Like I'm keen to respond in the morning but there is not a single post here that makes a solid case for anything resembling elimination.

[DeasVail]

Malcolm, I think your pressuring of VP is entirely within the range if what scumbuddies would do, just as an aside.

[DeasVail]

Can someone actually outline what the actual case is against me beyond vibes and players who replaced in and made their decision on me without reading back on any previous posts? Like I'm keen to respond in the morning but there is not a single post here that makes a solid case for anything resembling elimination.

Does there need to be a case?

[fireisredsir]

Sorry Fire, but none of this makes sense from the point of me and VP being teammates. I'm genuinely baffled at this because your reads have been solid so far but VP has consistently been someone I've applied pressure to. There's no incentive to most of these posts from a mafia POV given VP has been under consistent pressure.

what makes you think my reads are solid? i don't feel very confident in them

also disagree, those kind of posts are very in the range of what maf partners will do

[MalcolmTucker]

Like why is April's slot under so little pressure? It was heavily pushed on day one, Ari left the game, April came in, argued they weren't mafia based on their lack of posting, despite being a replace-in, then accused me and admitted they had no clue as to what was actually going on in the game while doing so, and yet has stuck to that wagon since. It's just such a nonsense case and it's ridiculous town are even contemplating it at the moment.

[DeasVail]

Sorry Fire, but none of this makes sense from the point of me and VP being teammates. I'm genuinely baffled at this because your reads have been solid so far but VP has consistently been someone I've applied pressure to. There's no incentive to most of these posts from a mafia POV given VP has been under consistent pressure.

what makes you think my reads are solid? i don't feel very confident in them

also disagree, those kind of posts are very in the range of what maf partners will do

lol

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry Fire, but none of this makes sense from the point of me and VP being teammates. I'm genuinely baffled at this because your reads have been solid so far but VP has consistently been someone I've applied pressure to. There's no incentive to most of these posts from a mafia POV given VP has been under consistent pressure.

what makes you think my reads are solid? i don't feel very confident in them

also disagree, those kind of posts are very in the range of what maf partners will do

Why am I, hypothetically as mafia, spending time building a proper team case against a teammate who has the most votes this round? It's just incredibly counterproductive.

I generally just feel your reads have been solid so far, generally interesting without feeling too aligned to any agenda.

[DeasVail]

Like why is April's slot under so little pressure? It was heavily pushed on day one, Ari left the game, April came in, argued they weren't mafia based on their lack of posting, despite being a replace-in, then accused me and admitted they had no clue as to what was actually going on in the game while doing so, and yet has stuck to that wagon since. It's just such a nonsense case and it's ridiculous town are even contemplating it at the moment.

Did you ever pressure the slot?

(I honestly don’t remember and can’t easily check rn so it’s a genuine question)

[MalcolmTucker]

Can someone actually outline what the actual case is against me beyond vibes and players who replaced in and made their decision on me without reading back on any previous posts? Like I'm keen to respond in the morning but there is not a single post here that makes a solid case for anything resembling elimination.

Does there need to be a case?

Yes? We're over 3,000 posts in, what are you doing if you are considering eliminating someone without a case for them?

[tenebrousluminary]

My way too early prediction theory right now is:

Malcolm, Fire, Scorpius, Skitter slot

If I may contribute another reason to my case for Scorp town, I do not think as scum he would have reacted to my defending him by questioning my motives. He needed allies at that time and I think he would have just taken it.

Noted. Yeah, I had scorp town for a while too, so it's really a POE slot for me.

What're your thoughts on Malcolm?

I think he could be scum, not feeling it super strongly. I think he likes to hide behind a veneer of reasonability that makes it hard for me to read him in either direction, and you have some good points, and his "wah, no case" defense is no less unconvincing than when VP did it. So I'm planning to stick with my VP vote, but I am not mad there is a malcolm wagon at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like why is April's slot under so little pressure? It was heavily pushed on day one, Ari left the game, April came in, argued they weren't mafia based on their lack of posting, despite being a replace-in, then accused me and admitted they had no clue as to what was actually going on in the game while doing so, and yet has stuck to that wagon since. It's just such a nonsense case and it's ridiculous town are even contemplating it at the moment.

Did you ever pressure the slot?

(I honestly don’t remember and can’t easily check rn so it’s a genuine question)

Not until April posted regularly - I've stated before I thought Ari seemed genuine because I didn't think mafia would pressure the masons so hard, but April's read of me has been so weak and incoherent that I feel like it's borderline desperate mafia trying to build a case against someone else with little to go on.

[tenebrousluminary]

There is something about pairing him with VP that appeals to me, but that may be more aesthetic than substance.

[DeasVail]

Can someone actually outline what the actual case is against me beyond vibes and players who replaced in and made their decision on me without reading back on any previous posts? Like I'm keen to respond in the morning but there is not a single post here that makes a solid case for anything resembling elimination.

Does there need to be a case?

Yes? We're over 3,000 posts in, what are you doing if you are considering eliminating someone without a case for them?

I guess that could be a mafia theory disagreement then. I feel like most “cases” are made to justify what is actually much less elaborate reasoning behind reads.

[VP Baltar]

when you first brought up malcolm, him and VP as a pairing was my first thought. i think it makes sense with the tene wagon, and some of the interactions early. but that's from the perspective of thinking VP is the scummier one, so idk if it's as clear of a connection in the other direction

If you think we are partners, why are you getting off my much bigger wagon?

Tbh I was tempted by the wagon too because OOO SHINY and had to tell myself to stay strong

Lol, I do not understand.

But you have to admit, if you believe me and Malcom are scum, you'd have no reason to Switch wagons there.

[Nero Cain]

If the reasoning for Malcolm is that he's a partner with VP I'm not sure why we should stop voting VP?

[VP Baltar]

If you think we are partners, why are you getting off my much bigger wagon?

i think it's a possibility. and cause i think april has cool ideas and im a big fan of the sudden unexpected wagon to see if it throws scum off their balance

This is fake as fuck

[VP Baltar]

If the reasoning for Malcolm is that he's a partner with VP I'm not sure why we should stop voting VP?

Nero making actual sense

[DeasVail]

when you first brought up malcolm, him and VP as a pairing was my first thought. i think it makes sense with the tene wagon, and some of the interactions early. but that's from the perspective of thinking VP is the scummier one, so idk if it's as clear of a connection in the other direction

If you think we are partners, why are you getting off my much bigger wagon?

Tbh I was tempted by the wagon too because OOO SHINY and had to tell myself to stay strong

Lol, I do not understand.

But you have to admit, if you believe me and Malcom are scum, you'd have no reason to Switch wagons there.

I was thinking about what I’d do as scum.

If scum with you, obv just stay on you.
If scum with Malcolm, probably switch.
If scum with both of you as town, double down on voting VP to appear “genuine” and “passionate”.

But idk if others would act like me as scum.

[tenebrousluminary]

Like why is April's slot under so little pressure? It was heavily pushed on day one, Ari left the game, April came in, argued they weren't mafia based on their lack of posting, despite being a replace-in, then accused me and admitted they had no clue as to what was actually going on in the game while doing so, and yet has stuck to that wagon since. It's just such a nonsense case and it's ridiculous town are even contemplating it at the moment.

She is solving. Not exactly rocket science to piece together why she isn't getting votes.

[DeasVail]

If you think we are partners, why are you getting off my much bigger wagon?

i think it's a possibility. and cause i think april has cool ideas and im a big fan of the sudden unexpected wagon to see if it throws scum off their balance

This is fake as fuck

Eh, it doesn’t seem that way to me

[tenebrousluminary]

Like why is April's slot under so little pressure? It was heavily pushed on day one, Ari left the game, April came in, argued they weren't mafia based on their lack of posting, despite being a replace-in, then accused me and admitted they had no clue as to what was actually going on in the game while doing so, and yet has stuck to that wagon since. It's just such a nonsense case and it's ridiculous town are even contemplating it at the moment.

Did you ever pressure the slot?

(I honestly don’t remember and can’t easily check rn so it’s a genuine question)

Not until April posted regularly - I've stated before I thought Ari seemed genuine because I didn't think mafia would pressure the masons so hard, but April's read of me has been so weak and incoherent that I feel like it's borderline desperate mafia trying to build a case against someone else with little to go on.

Why would she be desperate?

[MalcolmTucker]

My way too early prediction theory right now is:

Malcolm, Fire, Scorpius, Skitter slot

If I may contribute another reason to my case for Scorp town, I do not think as scum he would have reacted to my defending him by questioning my motives. He needed allies at that time and I think he would have just taken it.

Noted. Yeah, I had scorp town for a while too, so it's really a POE slot for me.

What're your thoughts on Malcolm?

I think he could be scum, not feeling it super strongly. I think he likes to hide behind a veneer of reasonability that makes it hard for me to read him in either direction, and you have some good points,

and his "wah, no case" defense is no less unconvincing than when VP did it.

So I'm planning to stick with my VP vote, but I am not mad there is a malcolm wagon at all.

I genuinely don't like to approach the game this way, because I'm aware I've gotten at you for similar and VP for similar as well. I'm happy to be productive and helpful (once I finally get to bed and then get up in the morning).

But I genuinely need to know what the case against me is to be able to do so. I don't think you can compare me with VP. The current wagon against me has sort of materialised out of nowhere and doesn't feel particularly strong or logic-based. The main person behind it is April. April basically admitted they "shoot their shot" too early. What does this mean? It feels like mafia admitting they built a case on someone they had no evidence on, but they kept pursuing it anyway.

Then you have Eyes. I have no strong mafia read on Eyes, but until now Eyes has directed no suspicion towards me. It's not a strong case. Likewise, Yeet has repeatedly said they don't have particularly strong reads and they have gone for me.

Fire's read feels weak...felt they've played well so far but I don't get what it is based on. The idea of me and VP as a team is just bollocks for anyone checking ISOs regularly.

Like there's one player here who consistently has thought I'm mafia, and they're a replace-in who basically bragged about not reading up on the game early doors and admitted they went in on me too early.

[tenebrousluminary]

If the reasoning for Malcolm is that he's a partner with VP I'm not sure why we should stop voting VP?

Nero making actual sense

He isn't actually, because that is hardly the main reasoning being used. Main pusher April does not even think that is what is happening.