Newbie 2090 (Game Over)

[Frozen Angel]

Vote Count 2-4

Mr Turtle (2)[E2]:

TTTT, BigTerp

Somnus (1):

furtiveglance

Not Voting (4):

Mr Turtle, Somnus, PlmPestPlaY, GoldfishFromTheMoon

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to eliminate.

Deadline: March 22, 5:25 am GMT.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-03-22 05:25:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[Mr Turtle]

this Turtle post comes after an absence of pages and pages with nothing from him
and it's a long post about something that nobody in the game at the time cares about
totally irrelevant to the E-1 on marci or anything else happening

Spoiler:

I've decided to ISO Lukewarm to see if I was able to move them out of my null range.

Regarding marcistar

: During the first twenty four hours of the game, Lukewarm pretty much waits for her to show up (11, 77 & 157) with the reasoning that she is "easiest to read in the very start of the game, before she has found her footing". What I don't like about this is that they barely do anything and it feels as though they are hiding behind said reasoning to not do anything. Having someone to meta read at the beginning of the game makes it easier to "get into" the game so to speak, but it's also an easy way for scum to look busy. Then Luke has a bit of a back and forth of friendly banter with marcistar (160 & 164) and paired with their hyper-focus regarding their interactions with her (162 & 282), I deem them unlikely to be mafia partners. Note that when 164 was posted, 7 out of 10 posts in Luke's ISO had explicitly mentioned, quoted or been about marcistar. Later, Luke starts defending marcistar based on meta reads (286 & 299), claiming that most of her lack of vote and joke scumfession were NAI. In 294 they post their first concrete read on marcistar as "null scum". To me, this progression seems a bit messy, which I rate as being more likely towny than not. In 313, Luke voices his distaste with the E-1 vote, something which I also see as towny. They then make a non-read on marci by saying that they "want to hold off comitting to a read on her" and place them in their null range (317 & 318). Furthermore, Luke cements marcistar's null position by defending their retracted vote and subtly defending her (347, 348 & 352). I like Luke trying to slow the thread down on the marcistar wagon, it doesn't strike me as benefiting the mafia. 396, 399 & 400 are used to defend marci once again based on their scum reads, however Luke backtracks a bit by saying "I don't think that this is a slam dunk Marci is town case". I am not overjoyed by the hedginess on marcistar since a lot of Luke's posts have been used defending her. The hedginess is continued in 412, the posts 413, 414, 415 & 419 are meta dives into marci's past games, but Luke admits that he doesn't have any reliable meta tells and thus marcistar stays in the null range.

Conclusion

: Lukewarm spends a lot of time and posts semi-defending marcistar by dismissing many reasons for scum reading her as NAI while staying null throughout the entire game (minus the occasional "maybe town" or "maybe scum" comment). What makes me dislike the null read especially is the fact that I count 25-30 posts made that more or less directly have to do with marci in a 70 post ISO. With that being said, I don't think that Luke can be mafia if marcistar is. No-one enters the thread and spends a third of their posts on their scum buddy. Overall, I rate Luke's interactions with marci as lean town for them. If marci is town, I'm going to scrutinize Luke some more. Outside of the associative reads, I understand that Luke latches on to the player they best know to post about. This is something I would do as well. However, I'm a bit disappointed that the reads always end nullish.

General thoughts

: On the other hand, the rest of Luke's ISO has been quite towny since their reappearance 281. I don't want to dwell on this as long as the Luke-marci interactions, but I have a couple comments here as well. What stuck out to me the most was Luke not going with the flow. When Luke reemerged at 281, their reads were independent from thread consensus. Multiple reads lists had been posted, it would have been really easy to simply "copy" them without having anyone really bat an eye. But Luke didn't, instead they scum-cased Somnus and placed a scum lean on BigTerp in 316. The lock-town on TTTT also doesn't benefit scum!Luke (420). As mafia, Luke would want to either
a) push for TTTT to get lynched, or
b) night-kill TTTT without having a strong connection tied to the kill.
But by putting TTTT as their highest town, scum!Luke wouldn't be able to do a) or b) without receiving suspicion. The fact that Luke town-locked TTTT without having pressure on them to do so makes me feel better about them.

Conclusion

:

I'm comfortable with putting Luke as a town read

. What Luke lacks in towniness regarding their marcistar read they make up with their other posts. Particularly if marci turns out to be mafia it will make me more confident in my Luke read. They have just had a towny thread presence in this game.

That post was for me. I set out to sort my Luke null read and I conclusively did so. Dunno why you think it's "totally irrelevant" since I spend a good chunk of it directly speaking how this relates to marcistar. I felt I owed the thread something more substantial after an absence. Would you have preferred for me to come with a one liner?

sorry for all the posts tonight
I prefer a post for each idea/thought/reaction
rather than giant mega posts
makes it easier to follow and respond to

It really doesn't. A part of me dies every time I see four new unread pages. Wall posts are easier for ISOing and just make for a cleaner thread.

[TTTT]

we owe Luck the courtesy to review his case on Somnus

So we should sheep Luke when it's directly beneficial to us and not sheep Luke when it goes against our agenda? How does that work? I don't like that only some of Luke's posts apply because you say so.

there's a pretty big difference between saying "sheep the dead townie"
and saying "we owe it to him to review his posts"
I posted his thoughts regardless of whether or not I agree with them

[Mr Turtle]

Will just say this though.

Mr Turtle could you expand on why you scum-read furtiveglance after #1 scum-reading marcistar, who you said made the most well thought out case against furtiveglance?

The furtiveglance read and the marcistar read are largely independent. I thought marcistar's post on furtiveglance was the townies thing she had done up to that point and I agreed with some of the reasonings in the post. I don't see the need to do associative reads before we have a concrete alignment flip. With that being said, I'd like to revisit my scum and town leans (including furtiveglance) soon.

Are those reads independant though? If furtiveglance and marcistar are both mafia, that would mean marcistar made "the most well thought-out case in the game" against the other mafia player. Do you think that is something marcistar would do?

When I say independent, I mean that I read them independently. Yes, if marcistar flips mafia, I think that makes furtiveglance look much better. I don't think marcistar makes her first case on her scum buddy.

But

I see no reason for me to find furtiveglance scummy and then dismissing it because marci cased them.

Ahh, why not? Why would dismissing furtiveglance be a bad move? I think I would agree with you, had you not explicitly made marcistar your #1. It makes me think your reads-list is made up.
For your scum-lean of me you referenced your previous explanation for null-leaning me. Did you scum-lean me because more time had passed and nothing had changed?

It wouldn't be a bad move, but I made my reads independently from one another. Yes, if marcistar flipped scum that would've cleared furtiveglance. But why did I need to preemptively clear furtiveglance for a non-existent flip? I get you think it's weird that I scum read marcistar and said "Wow, that's a good case", but marcistar helped me see something that I hadn't seen before. #1 scum read doesn't mean 100% lock scum, even top scum reads do towny things. What makes marcistar as my #1 scum read different than marcistar as my #2 scum read? Following your logic, if you scum read someone you shouldn't agree with their reads. Why does this only apply to the top scum read?

Where did I reference my previous explanation for null-leaning you (I'm genuinely not quite sure what you mean)? Could you like a post?

To answer your last question. In 276 you write "explained above", which I assume refers to 228. As for the rest, I'll try to justify it best I can.

1) You desribed marcistar ISO #3 post as the most well thought-out post this game. I take it this means the post is towny.
2) This would mean you #1 scum-leaned marcistar despite that post. Nothing wrong with that necessarily.
3) You possibly found your #1 significantly more scummy than your #2. To me this would mean you would find it more significant, if #1 made a really towny post scum-leaning #2, than the other way around.
4) So I feel like it would be natural to reconsider furtiveglance, since why would your #1 make such a towny post against furtiveglance, if they're a pair?

Anyway, I got what I wanted out of this conversation. Feel free to respond. As you can see, we would also like to hear your thoughts on the game right now.

Ah, in 228 I had outlined reasons for my scum reads. In my full reads list in 276 I just referenced those.

My case on furtiveglance was more than the marcistar post, by the way. If it was only for the marcistar post, I probably wouldn't have scum-leaned him. But I found him scummy for other reasons as well as the time. However, I still insist that I wasn't looking for "who goes together as a scum pair" or "who doesn't go together as a scum pair". I just looked at who's scummy in a vacuum, no pairs. Perhaps this is a difference of opinion between us two.

[Mr Turtle]

I posted his thoughts regardless of whether or not I agree with them

I didn't see you quote any posts you didn't agree with, but perhaps I missed it.

[TTTT]

Dunno why you think it's "totally irrelevant" since I spend a good chunk of it directly speaking how this relates to marcistar.

it was irrelevant because nobody was going to be voting for Luke
Marci was on the chopping block and you spent all that effort posting about the one of towniest player's read on the player who was being waggoned

[TTTT]

I posted his thoughts regardless of whether or not I agree with them

I didn't see you quote any posts you didn't agree with, but perhaps I missed it.

I'm not pushing for a Somnus or BigTerp elim
those were his two scumreads in that big post I quoted

[Mr Turtle]

Marci was on the chopping block and you spent all that effort posting about the one of towniest player's read on the player who was being waggoned

My thoughts on marci were already clear, no? And prior to my post Luke wasn't "one of the towniest players". He was null to me. I do believe it was important to delve into a Luke-marci joint read due to their meta. Had one of them been scum, I'd expect that to be the most obvious place to see it.

[TTTT]

Turtle
you've written so many words
but I have no idea who you think is scum

Pedit: I mean Luke was one of the towniest players according to the reads of the other players in the game

[Mr Turtle]

I posted his thoughts regardless of whether or not I agree with them

I didn't see you quote any posts you didn't agree with, but perhaps I missed it.

I'm not pushing for a Somnus or BigTerp elim
those were his two scumreads in that big post I quoted

I have no doubt that you weren't pushing for a BigTerp elimination, however I read "we owe Luck the courtesy to review his case on Somnus" as "Somnus should be considered as a viable wagon". Mayhaps I just read that wrong.

[Mr Turtle]

Turtle
you've written so many words
but I have no idea who you think is scum

Pedit: I mean Luke was one of the towniest players according to the reads of the other players in the game

I don't remember a single post by Goldie, so probably scum. PPP null-scum. Somnus could go either way. Same with furtiveglance. I'm not committed to any of these reads before I read through ISOs.

[furtiveglance]

TTTT can I have a readslist pls? I'd like to know your thoughts

[TTTT]

Town

BigTerp


PPP

Furtive
Somnus

Goldie
Turtle

Scum

right now BigTerp is the only one who would really surprise me if they are scum
I need more townreads
not sure on the order of the middle two either
but this is where I'm at

[furtiveglance]

Town

BigTerp


PPP

Furtive
Somnus

Goldie
Turtle

Scum

right now BigTerp is the only one who would really surprise me if they are scum
I need more townreads
not sure on the order of the middle two either
but this is where I'm at

I am offended that PPP is above me

[furtiveglance]

You could use another townread

[TTTT]

I need more townreads

[GoldfishFromTheMoon]

[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13296299]post 835[/url], Mr Turtle"]
I don't remember a single post by Goldie, so probably scum.[/quote]

Could you explain this further for me please. How does you not remembering any of my posts make you think I'm scum? Please remember the fact that I replaced into this game so I don't have as many posts as other players because I haven't been in the thread as long.

[Somnus]

The way I'm trying to look at it is:

1.) Who would I be willing to vote for today
2.) Who wouldn't I be willing to vote for today

Ah, yeah, I guess? This seems kinda empty to me. Could you give me and GoldfishFromTheMoon the answers to 677? I don't think we understood it.

Well yeah it looks empty. You kind of removed all of the important context from the post when you quoted it.

To answer your question about 677, the answer to 1-3 was myself. I would have benefited the most by far by pushing Marci through ASAP and making a case for her. No one else was in danger of being eliminated. You briefly had two votes on you, and Goldfish had zero. So no, I believe you misunderstood where I was going with that.

[PlmPestPlaY]

The way I'm trying to look at it is:

1.) Who would I be willing to vote for today
2.) Who wouldn't I be willing to vote for today

Ah, yeah, I guess? This seems kinda empty to me. Could you give me and GoldfishFromTheMoon the answers to 677? I don't think we understood it.

Well yeah it looks empty. You kind of removed all of the important context from the post when you quoted it.

To answer your question about 677, the answer to 1-3 was myself. I would have benefited the most by far by pushing Marci through ASAP and making a case for her. No one else was in danger of being eliminated. You briefly had two votes on you, and Goldfish had zero. So no, I believe you misunderstood where I was going with that.

Thanks. You say question 4 is not rhetorical? It seems to me rather specific for an unrhetorical question. The only answer I can think of that fits both conditions is me. Maybe furtiveglance, but that is really stretching it. What are your answers to it?

[Somnus]

I guess I can understand how you see it that way. The point that I was unsuccessfully trying to make was that we had a wagon of 5 players (1 of them is now dead), 1 person who wasn't on the wagon but had previous intent to hammer a few times, and 1 who wasn't on the wagon but at one point encouraged anyone else to replace an unvote on said-wagon (and so yes, that specific last part is referring to you), and that being on or off of the wagon of a mis-limmed townie is a good starting point, but there were essentially 7 players that wanted Marci dead. And so yes, that's an unfortunately large pool to work with and so going over the intent is in my opinion the top priority.

[PlmPestPlaY]

I guess I can understand how you see it that way. The point that I was unsuccessfully trying to make was that we had a wagon of 5 players (1 of them is now dead), 1 person who wasn't on the wagon but had previous intent to hammer a few times, and 1 who wasn't on the wagon but at one point encouraged anyone else to replace an unvote on said-wagon (and so yes, that specific last part is referring to you), and that being on or off of the wagon of a mis-limmed townie is a good starting point, but there were essentially 7 players that wanted Marci dead. And so yes, that's an unfortunately large pool to work with and so going over the intent is in my opinion the top priority.

Not sure I understand this correctly. Do you mean to say no players fit question #4? If that isn't what you meant, please answer #4. I see here you address question #2, which I did assume referred to you.

[Somnus]

What I'm saying is that there's several players who fit that criteria. They're clearly not all scum-motivated.

[PlmPestPlaY]

What I'm saying is that there's several players who fit that criteria. They're clearly not all scum-motivated.

Who are they? Even I scum-leaned marcistar. Although, my case was 1 sentence long, so I guess you could say it doesn't count.

[Somnus]

The three people who didn't seem to care which one of Somnus/Marci was pushed through were furtive, Goldfish, and yourself. I don't know where Goldfish currently stands, and I guess to some extent, I don't know where you currently stand either.

[BigTerp]

Some thoughts this morning...........

TTTT

- I'm liking a lot of their recent posts. It's coherent and seems to be in the favor of moving the game along and really trying to figure things out. There have been several posts regarding Mr. Turtle and Furtive that I found myself shaking my head in agreement with.

PPPP

- I've turned the corner with PPP from null/scum to a pretty strong town read. I mentioned it here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13294610 and the same seems to be continuing.

Goldfish

- Null. Still a REALLY tough read for me. I had the person in the slot first as scummy, and Goldfish is becoming more of a townish read as the game goes on. But I'm having troubling consolidating the slot and making a read one way or the other.

Somnus

- Null/scummy read. This continues to be a tough one for me. My last read still rings true.

Posting seems forced with little substance. It's like Somnus is here and participating, but just enough to appear as present and participating. Not giving much thought on their own reads nor others. Good strategy for scum, so if they are flipped there isn't much to go own based on their previous post.

Mr. Turtle

- Has gone from null to scum read. TTTT made some interesting and reveling thoughts on TTTT here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13295762 and here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13295798. Initially I gave Mr. Turtle credit for their informative and seemingly well thought out posts. But TTTT made a good point here that much of it is irrelevant to what was going on in the game.

Furtive

- Scum read. My biggest flip from day one. Had them as strong town along with Luke (pretty much a coin toss between the two as who was most town), but this https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13294102 and this https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13294255 has caused a complete 180 for me.


With all of that said, I'm good with any of the last three on my list.

VOTE: Mr.Turtle as I'd like to hear MUCH more from them.

Not much has changed on my thoughts above from yesterday.

There was some talk from Somnus about the large majority on the Marci wagon day 1 here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13296612 that makes them have to look at intent versus where the votes are. Makes sense and goes back to TTTT's preference day 1 to have dueling wagons. In hindsight, it just seemed way to easy to get Marci eliminated. Part of that is on them for they way they played (that's not a knock on Marci, by the way, just the nature of the game) but there is for sure scum somewhere on that wagon which highlights Somnus' post here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13294064. I've gotta go back myself and look further into this. But I find it interesting that Somnus was asking those questions to highlight themselves here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13296585. I don't really get that. Their vote was on PPP, not Marci. Why pose questions like that when the answer is yourself? It's like your fingering yourself for scum, to show you're not scum. Seems like quite a scummy thing to do!!