Newbie 2090 (Game Over)

[Frozen Angel]

Vote Count 2-5

Mr Turtle (2)[E2]:

TTTT, BigTerp

Somnus (1):

furtiveglance

GoldfishFromTheMoon (1):

Mr Turtle

Not Voting (3):

Somnus, PlmPestPlaY, GoldfishFromTheMoon

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to eliminate.

Deadline: March 22, 5:25 am GMT.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-03-22 05:25:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[PlmPestPlaY]

The three people who didn't seem to care which one of Somnus/Marci was pushed through were furtive, Goldfish, and yourself. I don't know where Goldfish currently stands, and I guess to some extent, I don't know where you currently stand either.

GoldfishFromTheMoon seemed pretty set on marcistar, so I think I disagree there. I don't think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance fit the 2nd part of #4. furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon both made a case against marcistar. So does this give us - or + town points?

I'm sorry PPP but I'm not sure you're representing my intentions entierly accurately. I wasn't completely set on Marcistar, I would have been happy with either marci or somnus day 1 because I really wasn't certain about a read on anyone. I know I made a case against marcistar and multiple times said particular things they were doing seemed suspicious but that was more to convince myself that my vote was in the right place that for anyone else.

Side note PPP I don't like how you seem to be viewing me and you as a group, this is the second time you've reffered to "us" or "me and goldfishfromthemoon" Idk if you're trying to get me to townread you by seeming to be thinking along the same lines but it's not working. You're still null possibly scum (although some of your posts today were looking a bit more town-ish).

You being set on marcistar was the impression I got. At least towards the very end of day 1 you seemed that way. I know you still scum-read Somnus at the time. What you wrote about marcistar qualifies as a case in my book. It doesn't matter if you wrote it just to "fit in". The "us" in the post referrs to you, me and furtiveglance. The reason I said "give me and GoldfishFromTheMoon the answers to 677" was because you (680, 682), like me (705), were confused. Presumably because we both believed we could have been eliminated day 1.

Since I'm replying to you. Currently I null/town-lean you. That said, I think you'd be better off not replying to every single allegation or worrying about being misrepresented or whatever.

[PlmPestPlaY]

The three people who didn't seem to care which one of Somnus/Marci was pushed through were furtive, Goldfish, and yourself. I don't know where Goldfish currently stands, and I guess to some extent, I don't know where you currently stand either.

GoldfishFromTheMoon seemed pretty set on marcistar, so I think I disagree there. I don't think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance fit the 2nd part of #4. furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon both made a case against marcistar. So does this give us - or + town points?

Is the above an unreasonable question? I assume it's minus town points. Since the mafia don't care which townie gets elim'd and would be looking for any excuse to vote either one. Also, we're all in your scum pool.
I'll restate it. Why should I care "Who are the players who didn't seem to care whether Marci or Somnus went through and didn't seem to make much of a case against either?"?
In your last answer you didn't quote the 2nd condition of #4, so just to make sure I'll ask the following. Do you think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance didn't make a good case against either you or marcistar?

[Somnus]

The three people who didn't seem to care which one of Somnus/Marci was pushed through were furtive, Goldfish, and yourself. I don't know where Goldfish currently stands, and I guess to some extent, I don't know where you currently stand either.

GoldfishFromTheMoon seemed pretty set on marcistar, so I think I disagree there. I don't think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance fit the 2nd part of #4. furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon both made a case against marcistar. So does this give us - or + town points?

Is the above an unreasonable question? I assume it's minus town points. Since the mafia don't care which townie gets elim'd and would be looking for any excuse to vote either one. Also, we're all in your scum pool.
I'll restate it. Why should I care "Who are the players who didn't seem to care whether Marci or Somnus went through and didn't seem to make much of a case against either?"?
In your last answer you didn't quote the 2nd condition of #4, so just to make sure I'll ask the following. Do you think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance didn't make a good case against either you or marcistar?

It's not an unreasonable question, but I think that you and I have a fundamental difference on the premise. It doesn't take much to make a seemingly "good" case against someone on Day 1, and more often than not, it results in a mis-lim. That's just the odds. I won't bore you with details, but when I was scum, we eliminated a player on Day 1 with a similar case. It looked "good" and it appealed to the majority. I doubt TTTT wants to do a deep-dive into the mis-lim in his prior game on Day 1, and the case was a bit different, but same thing.

Point being, it's not hard to push someone on very little on Day 1. That doesn't make it a bad case. It means that it was an easy push with limited information. Marci was disengaged from the game, which happens. I can relate. I've had some unfortunate IRL issues that have coincided with this game, but that's neither here nor there. Looking back through Marci's ISO, as disengaged as she was, she DID provide reads. I just think people didn't like that it wasn't condensed into one big wall-post/list. So again, to me, it's not a matter of "Was the case good?". It's a matter of what the motivation looked like, and that has been hard to decipher.

[PlmPestPlaY]

The three people who didn't seem to care which one of Somnus/Marci was pushed through were furtive, Goldfish, and yourself. I don't know where Goldfish currently stands, and I guess to some extent, I don't know where you currently stand either.

GoldfishFromTheMoon seemed pretty set on marcistar, so I think I disagree there. I don't think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance fit the 2nd part of #4. furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon both made a case against marcistar. So does this give us - or + town points?

Is the above an unreasonable question? I assume it's minus town points. Since the mafia don't care which townie gets elim'd and would be looking for any excuse to vote either one. Also, we're all in your scum pool.
I'll restate it. Why should I care "Who are the players who didn't seem to care whether Marci or Somnus went through and didn't seem to make much of a case against either?"?
In your last answer you didn't quote the 2nd condition of #4, so just to make sure I'll ask the following. Do you think GoldfishFromTheMoon and furtiveglance didn't make a good case against either you or marcistar?

It's not an unreasonable question, but I think that you and I have a fundamental difference on the premise. It doesn't take much to make a seemingly "good" case against someone on Day 1, and more often than not, it results in a mis-lim. That's just the odds. I won't bore you with details, but when I was scum, we eliminated a player on Day 1 with a similar case. It looked "good" and it appealed to the majority. I doubt TTTT wants to do a deep-dive into the mis-lim in his prior game on Day 1, and the case was a bit different, but same thing.

Point being, it's not hard to push someone on very little on Day 1. That doesn't make it a bad case. It means that it was an easy push with limited information. Marci was disengaged from the game, which happens. I can relate. I've had some unfortunate IRL issues that have coincided with this game, but that's neither here nor there. Looking back through Marci's ISO, as disengaged as she was, she DID provide reads. I just think people didn't like that it wasn't condensed into one big wall-post/list. So again, to me, it's not a matter of "Was the case good?". It's a matter of what the motivation looked like, and that has been hard to decipher.

I think I get what you mean. Mafia could theoretically fake a nice looking case against someone on day 1. And since not much has happend, they don't have to string many facts together. However, I don't think this answers my 2 questions. I'll restate again, using your words.

Why should the town care who are the players who didn't seem to care whether Marci or Somnus went through and didn't seem to make much of a case against either?
Do you think furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon didn't seem to make much of a case against either you or marcistar?

[Somnus]

Town should care who gets eliminated and who at least on the surface appeared to not care who was eliminated. Town wants to be right about who they eliminate. Mafia just wants to get the mis-lim.

To the second part, I don't, but I don't think that's really for me to say with any objectivity. I don't know what other answer you'd get from any player in any game to that last part besides, "No". I'd be more curious to where both you and Goldfish stand in this game with your thoughts.

[BigTerp]

Goldfish - A slot that is incredibly hedgy. I don't like 571 & 585. The first has seemingly random one-liners such as "this post freaks me out" or "I find this very interesting". Why is this progressing the game?
While ("

I don't want to take to strong a stance because I think I'm possibly wrong and I don't want to throw the game.

") not wanting to throw the game is admirable, none of their stances have been "too strong". The stance they follow up with is literally "let's eliminate the leading wagon and most widely scum-read player marcistar" with an added "(but I do think she is scum)" to assure us that they aren't trying to eliminate one of their town-reads.

They also keep on apologizing and not committing "(sorry I know you didn't want a wall of text)", "Tentative reads (I don't trust all these yet)" & "so here is my explaining (and I get this sounds bad)". This just feels so awkward. "I know this looks bad but I'm going to put my vote back on Marci" -> the constant focus on "this sounds/looks bad" makes me believe that they're hyper-focusing on their image and how they need to appear towny.

577 feels eh. Especially when followed by 579. It's as if they're trying to prove "I'm not scum, watch me vote the scummiest player!".

The reads list in 583 is okay. It's nothing ground-breaking or alignment-indicative either way. I don't blame them, they subbed into end of day. But nothing new, still the same hedginess and whatever "

I visualise him as Watson from the BBC Sherlock TV show because of the profile pic, which biases me toward thinking he is town.

" is.

I get that they subbed into a difficult position, but I feel like this is more likely newb!scum than newb!town. Newb!town knows that they are 100% town and while not confident in their reads, they generally seem less worried and awkward than Goldfish here. To me this looks like Goldfish very badly wanted to get on people's good side by being apolegetic and going with the flow.

Sadly, it's late. I'll continue their ISO as soon as I can. I didn't make it past post #10 of their ISO yet, so maybe something changes. But until then VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon for the self-conscious entrance.

A lot of interesting points here.

[BigTerp]

And FYI, I'll be V/LA from 3/23 until 3/28 with VERY limited internet access. Not sure if it was necessary, or what it even does, but I put that info. in the V/LA section of my profile control panel.

[PlmPestPlaY]

Town should care who gets eliminated and who at least on the surface appeared to not care who was eliminated. Town wants to be right about who they eliminate. Mafia just wants to get the mis-lim.

To the second part, I don't, but I don't think that's really for me to say with any objectivity. I don't know what other answer you'd get from any player in any game to that last part besides, "No". I'd be more curious to where both you and Goldfish stand in this game with your thoughts.

This is getting a bit tedious now, even for me. I feel like you didn't answer the first question. Or at the very least chopped it in half and only answered the first part. Come to think of it, I think there is a bit of ambiguity to my 2nd question.
Yes I suspect you.
I'm wrapping this up. Last question:
Do you think the 2nd part (colored part) of your question "Who are the players who didn't seem to care whether Marci or Somnus went through and

didn't seem to make much of a case against either

?" is true for furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon?

[Somnus]

I did answer you, Pimpest. You either don’t like the answers or don’t understand what I’m saying, but I’ve answered your questions.

1.) If you’re town, you should have questions when you see someone seemingly indifferent about who gets eliminated. I don’t know why you wouldn’t.

2.) I have now answered this in 3 different posts, but based on the progression of how the votes went, yes I do.

I cannot clarify it more than that for you. It’s not humanly possible. We never got any clarification on what occurred in post 378, which looked like it was typed by a completely different person, and said they were a lot less interested in the game anymore. I’ve chalked it up as being on completely different wavelengths, which is fine, but I have answered your questions.

[PlmPestPlaY]

I did answer you, Pimpest. You either don’t like the answers or don’t understand what I’m saying, but I’ve answered your questions.

1.) If you’re town, you should have questions when you see someone seemingly indifferent about who gets eliminated. I don’t know why you wouldn’t.

2.) I have now answered this in 3 different posts, but based on the progression of how the votes went, yes I do.

I cannot clarify it more than that for you. It’s not humanly possible. We never got any clarification on what occurred in post 378, which looked like it was typed by a completely different person, and said they were a lot less interested in the game anymore. I’ve chalked it up as being on completely different wavelengths, which is fine, but I have answered your questions.

I agree with point 1. But to me it doesn't address the case thing. Anyway, the point was to ask whether you scum-lean or town-lean these players.
As for point 2, yeah, I could've been less pedantic. The first time you quoted only the first half and answered it. So I asked again explicitly about the 2nd part. There is slight ambiguity. Say it's raining and you don't have an umbrella. If someone asks you "Do you have an umbrella?", you say no. But if someone asks "Don't you have an umbrella?", you also say no, despite the questions being opposite. But the 3rd time was still probably unnecessary.

[BigTerp]

Somnus and PPP, since you guys are around I noticed neither of you have votes on anyone. Any reason in particular why your holding out on that?

[furtiveglance]

I can't see Somnus and PPP as a pair. The mafia team is therefore Somnus/GoldfishFromtheMoon, or PPP/Goldfish.

[furtiveglance]

I'm pretty sure it's Somnus/Goldfish

[BigTerp]

Back to the dueling wagon idea. I like a Somnus/Turtle one right now. And to a lesser extent Somnus/Furtive.

We've got three votes outstanding. I'd like to see some movement from them, or where votes are currently, to get some more discussions going. Things seem to have gotten stale pretty quickly. For me, that's usually a sign that scum is comfortable where things are.

I'll reiterate my desire for a Turtle/Somnus wagon or a Somnus/Furtive wagon.

[BigTerp]

I can't see Somnus and PPP as a pair. The mafia team is therefore Somnus/GoldfishFromtheMoon, or PPP/Goldfish.

I've gotta agree that it's not Somnus/PPP. The back and forth and ongoing conversation about those 4 questions from awhile ago have seemed never ending. I can't imagine a scum team continuing on and on about something like that, especially amongst themselves. If it's one, I'd be highly surprised if it was also the other.

[TTTT]

Somnus and PPP, since you guys are around I noticed neither of you have votes on anyone. Any reason in particular why your holding out on that?

At this point it's anti-town to not be voting
especially when I've said I won't be here at end of day
Somnus and PPP really should make a stand of some kind (with a vote) before I'm VLA tomorrow afternoon

consider...
town!TTTT leaves for his vacation with his vote on town! Turtle
you have to either convince the remaining 4 town players to agree on a scum elim, or hope for scum to bus when they don't have to
A no-elim is NOT an option

that's why it's anti-town to not be voting right now
I'm not saying you can't move your votes when I'm gone
but please do something with them now

[TTTT]

I can't see Somnus and PPP as a pair.

this is a reasonable assumption to make

[TTTT]

We've got three votes outstanding. I'd like to see some movement from them, or where votes are currently, to get some more discussions going. Things seem to have gotten stale pretty quickly. For me, that's usually a sign that scum is comfortable where things are.

Never elim BigTerp

if he is scum he deserves to win
but he isn't scum

[PlmPestPlaY]

I am biased since Somnus voted me for the entirety of day 1, but the only players I've not town-read at any point are Somnus and Alianna/GoldfishFromTheMoon. Out of the two GoldfishFromTheMoon seems more towny to me. I don't hold Lukewarm getting night killed against Somnus, since killing the towniest player makes sense, regardless of their reads-list. However, it doesn't exactly help Somnus.

To Pimpest and whoever else, I offer you these questions:

1.) Who would have benefited the most from Marci being eliminated as quickly as possible?
2.) Who is the one person who never made a case against her, voted for her, or encouraged anyone else to replace an unvote on Marci with a vote?
3.) Who is the only other person who realistically could have been eliminated Day 1?
4.) Who are the players who didn't seem to care whether Marci or Somnus went through and didn't seem to make much of a case against either?

The answers to 1-3 may disappoint you.

Somnus, as you've said, the answer to 1-3 is yourself. I take it this means the questions are supposed to give you plus town points. I know you were the 2nd wagon on day 1, but the preemptive defense seems suspect. Combined with the bellow 2 posts, you seem almost smug about the fact you never voted marcistar.

I think gauging people's early Day 2 reactions, combined with the push on Marci, is going to give everyone a good place to start.

I'm going to go through ISO's in the evening. The problem is going to be that virtually everyone wanted Marci dead.

It's almost as if you're trying to divert attention away from yourself.

The answers to question 4 are me, furtiveglance and GoldfishFromTheMoon. Considering your own scum pool and simply my own opinion, I take it question 4 is supposed to give us minus town points. Which is why these next 2 replies seem disingenuous.

Is this an accusation against me?

It's not an accusation against any one person in particular. I need to hear from everyone.

Somnus if I'm following you
you are saying PPP and furtive

I wasn’t kidding. I didn’t have anyone lined up that I was taking a veiled shot at/accusation. But we now have information and we need to piece together which vote/votes seemed the least likely to be motivated by good intentions.

Not sure how you plan to read player's intentions. Have you made any progress on that? Harkens back to Lukewarm saying your posts are too theoretical.
Moreover, why pose questions like that and invite people to answer them? Why not just state your thoughts. I feel like it would be more helpful.
Also, you ignored my post where I expressed my confusion.

If I were to sum up your day 2 posts (perhaps unfairly), it would be like "Look at me, I didn't push marcistar. Also, since everyone else did push marcistar, it's gonna be really hard to find the mafia guys.".

VOTE: Somnus

I need to take a break from this forum.

[furtiveglance]

Vote Somnus, you will look good when they flip red

[furtiveglance]

In all seriousness, I think we need a Somnus vote today rather than a Turtle vote. Turtle is very town to me. I can see Somnus/Gold or maybe Somnus/TTTT. BigTerp and Turtle pls vote for Somnus if you think I am town

[TTTT]

if Somnus doesn't have a vote placed before I board my cruise ship tomorrow
I'll vote him

[TTTT]

this is ridiculous
we have less than 3 days left
and two players still haven't voted this day phase at all
Goldie and Somnus
do something

[Frozen Angel]