DkKoba's Mini Normal Review, March 2022

[DkKoba]

backup scum neighbor can exist

[DkKoba]

and it has been used before

[mastina]

Going by the wiki, the normal guidelines section for universal backup says it inherits any non-vanilla role of the same alignment. A neighbor would return a non-vanilla result to a vanilla cop, so it should be able to be inherited.

Does a neighbor return a non-vanilla result to a vanilla cop?

I have always treated neighbor (with nothing more) as, effectively, a modifier to the Vanilla Townie role. As, technically, being a Vanilla (Townie/Goon) Neighbor.

It's not a true power role; the NRG basically universally treats neighbors as power-neutral in games because neighbors do not add anything on their own to the game, barring niche game mechanics/roles being in play to make the neighborhoods have tangible value.

[DkKoba]

i find neighbors to be moreso enhancers to players with social skill

[DkKoba]

if a strong scum player and a weaker town player are in a hood together, it creates a stronger benefit for town, for instance.

[DkKoba]

for scum ***

[Ircher]

I checked the wiki page for vanilla cop.

Vanilla Cop is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. When the role is called "Vanilla Cop", Vanilla Townies, Mafia Goons, and Serial Killers with no additional powers return a "Vanilla" result, while all other roles return "not Vanilla".

By that definition, neighbors return a non-vanilla result to vanilla cops.

[DkKoba]

ircher, with knowledge that the UB isnt instant cleared, how would you classify it?

[DkKoba]

And to be clear: if a regular neighbor dies, that inherits the role too, I am assuming.

I'm fairly certain Neighbor does not count as a role for UB.

I am actually pretty sure that the opposite is true which may be a problem since universal backup --> neighbor effectively makes the slot confirmed town. I will see if I can find a reference for that tonight.

If I'n wrong about that, everything else looks fine.

since you did say this

[implosion]

neighbors aren't considered vanilla, UB can inherit it. Technically something like a neighbor cop is a multirole. They're just another one of those roles that you

can

formalize in a lot of ways but whichever way you pick you're gonna confuse someone.

[DkKoba]

neighbors aren't considered vanilla, UB can inherit it. Technically something like a neighbor cop is a multirole. They're just another one of those roles that you

can

formalize in a lot of ways but whichever way you pick you're gonna confuse someone.

wdym?

[implosion]

For the purpose of this setup I'm saying this is correct:

Going by the wiki, the normal guidelines section for universal backup says it inherits any non-vanilla role of the same alignment. A neighbor would return a non-vanilla result to a vanilla cop, so it should be able to be inherited.

In general I'm just saying that there's a formal notion of a multirole in normals and technically something like a neighbor cop was in a bit of a grey zone in terms of legality before that notion was introduced. It was allowed but I was always not really sure why, iirc.

[Ircher]

ircher, with knowledge that the UB isnt instant cleared, how would you classify it?

In that case, I'm fine with the setup. I would suspect that most people are still going to townread a Universal Backup --> Neighbor interaction, but with it not be clearing, I don't think it affects the balance significantly enough to bring it outside of balanced range. I don't have anything else to add that mastina hasn't already said.

[mastina]

I'm also good balance-wise but still need the role PMs/results/rules/etc.

[DkKoba]

yup!

i'll write them up now.

[DkKoba]

wdym by results/rules btw?

also that reminds me of the project i wanted to undertake to standardize all role PMs on the wiki so there's examples for everyone to go to, pls someone help me compile them

[DkKoba]

oh also:

Built in multitasking: ON

Global daytalk: ON

that was a bit of a given but yeah, doesnt affect the setup minus speculation on player's parts

[DkKoba]

Vanilla Townie

Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is

Vanilla Townie.

You have no special powers.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

just putting in a VT PM for a baseline since I'm going to type them all up in here here goes.

[DkKoba]

oh i didnt realize there would be the ability to just immediately snipe that mini spot and itd be mine and i was rushing to write up PMs .. i guess ill relax for now in that case ...

[DkKoba]

was looking for a more standardized looking Detective role PM but couldn't find one

[DkKoba]

All possible town roles are typed up:

Spoiler: Vanilla Townie

Vanilla Townie

Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is

Vanilla Townie.

You have no special powers.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

Spoiler: Town Neighbor

Town Neighbor

Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is

Town Neighbor

.

You are neighbors with XXX, YYY, and ZZZ. You may talk to them at night in the thread linked here: (link)

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here: (link)

Spoiler: Town 2 Shot Gunsmith Neighbor

Town 2 Shot Gunsmith Neighbor

Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is

Town 2 Shot Gunsmith Neighbor

.

You are neighbors with XXX, YYY, and ZZZ. You may talk to them at night in the thread linked here: (link)
Twice in the game, at night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player has a gun. Roles that have a gun are: all Mafia (except Traitors and Doctors), Cops, Vigilantes, Gunsmiths, Role Cops, Vanilla Cops, PT Cops, Vengefuls, Detectives, Neapolitans, Backups of roles with guns and JOATs that have any of these listed powers.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here: (link)

Spoiler: Town Universal Backup

Town Universal Backup

Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is

Town Universal Backup

.

You will inherit the role of Town power roles who die, losing this ability in the process.

You have no active abilities.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here (link).

Spoiler: Town Novice Detective

Town Novice Detective

Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is

Town Novice Detective

.

Starting on Night 2 you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player has attempted to kill anyone directly. (Directly in this case means not due to a secondary effect from a role, such as a Babysitter or a Weak modified role)

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here: (link)

Spoiler: Town Even Night Jailkeeper

Town Even Night Jailkeeper

Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is

Town Even Night Jailkeeper

.

On even numbered nights, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will be protected from kills that night, but all their actions will be blocked that night.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here: (link)

[DkKoba]

Gunsmith may receive in this game: Has gun, Does not have gun, or No Result

Universal Backup may receive a new role PM from the others, and if inheriting the 2 shot Gunsmith, will receive the number of shots left.

Town Novice Detective may receive in this game: Has attempted to kill, Has not attempted to kill, or No Result

That is it for town roles

[DkKoba]

Mafia Roles:

Spoiler: Mafia Goon

Mafia Goon

Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is

Mafia Goon

Your partners are YYYY,

Mafia Neighbor

, and ZZZZ,

Mafia Universal Backup Finder

. You share a private topic that you may talk in at night here: (link) , and you share a factional kill that one of your members may carry out each night.

You have no additional abilities.

You win when the mafia control 50% of the town or nothing can prevent this.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here: (link).

Spoiler: Mafia Neighbor

Mafia Neighbor

Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is

Mafia Neighbor

Your partners are YYYY,

Mafia Goon

, and ZZZZ,

Mafia Universal Backup Finder

. You share a private topic that you may talk in at night here: (link) , and you share a factional kill that one of your members may carry out each night.

You are neighbors with XXX, YYY, and ZZZ. You may talk to them at night in the thread linked here: (link)

You win when the mafia control 50% of the town or nothing can prevent this.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here: (link).

Spoiler: Mafia Universal Backup Finder

Mafia Universal Backup Finder

Welcome, XXXX, to Mini ####! Your role is

Mafia Universal Backup Finder

Your partners are YYYY,

Mafia Goon

, and ZZZZ,

Mafia Neighbor

. You share a private topic that you may talk in at night here: (link) , and you share a factional kill that one of your members may carry out each night.

Every night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn if that player possesses the role "Universal Backup".

You win when the mafia control 50% of the town or nothing can prevent this.

Please respond to this PM indicating you understand your role and your win condition.
The game thread is here: (link).

[DkKoba]

UB finder, I am assuming based on how UB works, does not receive a positive result on the player that was UB after they inherit a role.

[implosion]

Yeah, it's mostly just I don't want there to be no game in signups and there's never a guarantee of how long any given step of the process will take. Rest assured as soon as we're good here this game will be teed up (unless one of the mods who haven't been available comes out of hiding)