KTaNE [game over!]

[Datisi]

vote count 1.02

• with
  19
  votes in play, it takes
  10
  to make a decision.
  
• day 1 ends in
  (expired on 2022-04-06 19:15:00)
  .
  
• 8
  players who have the most nominations at eod1 will be bomb experts on n1.

execution:

StrangeMatter [3]:

GuiltyLion, The Bulge, Morning Tweet

Cat Scratch Fever [2]:

StrangeMatter, Greeting

catboi [2]:

PookyTheMagicalBear, Titus

Frogsterking [2]:

catboi, Menalque

PookyTheMagicalBear [1]:

Cephrir

Andante [1]:

VP Baltar

not voting [8]:

Lukewarm, Andante, Dwlee99, Andresvmb, Cat Scratch Fever, The Praetorian, Bell, Frogsterking

bomb expert nominations:

Greeting [3]:

catboi, Cephrir, Morning Tweet

Frogsterking [1]:

Titus

catboi [1]:

VP Baltar

not nominating [14]:

PookyTheMagicalBear, Frogsterking, Lukewarm, Andante, GuiltyLion, The Bulge, Dwlee99, Greeting, Andresvmb, Cat Scratch Fever, Menalque, The Praetorian, StrangeMatter, Bell

mod notes:

• the vote counter is acting weird and i'm counting votes by hand, let me know if i make any mistakes.

[Titus]

VOTE: frogster

[Menalque]

Hey titus, how you been?

Sick but improving

Glad to hear it!

Why didn’t you like the frog vote?

[Morning Tweet]

I think the idea to fail defusals by default is correct for reasons catboi explained, but I'm also having an emotional reaction against it due it being counter to the nature of the set-up as well as the resulting loss of my agency lol

I am getting the feeling my impression of the setup might be correct, where it's technically stronger to put up scum in order to box them or however the mechanic works

but then we don't get to play and they're just going to like, I guess succeed on purpose? So we'd lose the entire defusal/resistance part of the game in favour of basically an investigation vote?

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: frogster

this serious?

[Morning Tweet]

I’m sad u wouldn’t answer me, morning :(

Why do you ask every game? i'm soury though i guess im not in the mood

[GuiltyLion]

hey Menalque!! it's good to see you again

how you feeling about this game? seemed like you were burned out on rolling/playing scum last time I saw ya

[catboi]

i understand it's prolly not decided but are we trying to put town or scum in the defuser's seat

We do not get to decide on the defusers, only the experts.

Although ultimately the composition of the group of experts is not that important because the rules force us to cycle through experts in a way that makes the selection of scum highly likely, starting by selecting townreads today is perfectly fine - it prevents them from being selected for defusal by the mafia and gives them a neighborhood they can use.

[Frogsterking]

HEAL: StrangeMatter

@Datisi

, sorry to bother you yet again, but the rules state that town chooses the bomb experts. Is this a mistake? If not, then what happens when a scum nominates someone?

And one last question, what happens if there is a tie amongst players nominated to be bomb experts and there is more ties than spots? For instance, 5 players are tied and 4 experts are chosen.

it is not a mistake. the word "town" in that sentence refers to the collective of players, and every single player's nomination vote will be counted, regardless of their alignment.

if there are ties amongst the players nominated, they are broken by seniority; i.e. the players that got to that number of nominations first will be the experts. if, for any reason, that method of tie-breaking is not applicable, the mafia will be able to privately choose the bomb experts.

Okay, thanks. I didn't know that "town" is not referring to an alignment in this game, but to the whole of players. In that case, the previous posts by me should be discarded.

I don't think your ideas should be discarded, I think they should be improved. I think solving the mechanics is important to town winrate and is hard for scum to fake, so it helps the dayplay indirectly as well, and you seem to have some acumen for this mechanical solving.

So far I've seen three candidates for how to approach the nightplay. I think we should get a few more candidates and then focus on analyzing the implications of the top four. I've seen:

A) Defuse no bombs
B) Defuse up to three bombs
C) Each player nominates one other player as an expert

PEdit:
Tweet I don't think we've played before and I also don't recall reading any of the games you've played.

PEdit2:
Tweet we don't get to choose the "bomb defuser", only scum get to choose the "bomb defuser". Everyone gets to vote on the "Expert" who is immune from being chosen as the "bomb defuser" as well as any nightkills that nightphase

The "bomb defuser" is equal to the jailer's target as the "bomb expert" is equal to a jailer who gets to use their ability every night. The "bomb experts" are like a team of jailers where any one jailer can choose to kill the target. The team of jailers are elected by the town each dayphase in addition to the regular elimination vote and the jailer's target is chosen by the scum each twilight. If the team of jailers collectively decide to release the jailer target, the target not only lives but is given a one-shot vig ability, and the target's alignment moves one point closer to the theme's alternate win condition. Scum can choose to make themselves the jailer's target.

[Cephrir]

B) Defuse up to three bombs

Am I right in thinking we can increase this number later once defusers have flipped town?

[Morning Tweet]

I appreciate the explanation Frog. although I couldn't come near trying to help with what is optimal

I can't tell what determines how many bomb experts there are, from the rules or the VCs. I would think you would want as few as possible as to narrow the pool if a defuse fails (and we wanted it to succeed anyway)

[Morning Tweet]

Ah I found it. It's 4 n1, then 3 until there are 7 players alive at which it becomes 2. Sorry about that

[Frogsterking]

PEdit: Good point Ceph

PoE Order Matters:

1. Very early townreads:
   
2. Frogsterking
   
   
3. StrangeMatter
   
   
4. Greeting
   
   
   
   Null + posted:
   
5. Cephrir
   
   
6. PookyTheMagicalBear
   
   
7. The Bulge
   
   
8. Titus
   
   
9. Lukewarm
   
   
10. catboi
    
    
11. Morning Tweet
    
    
12. Menalque
    
    
    
    Null + not posted:
    
13. Andante
    
    
14. The Praetorian
    
    
15. Dwlee99
    
    
16. Andresvmb
    
    
17. Cat Scratch Fever
    
    
    Very early scumreads:
    
18. Bell
    
    
19. GuiltyLion
    
    
20. VP Baltar

More info:
Order matters in every tier except Null + not posted. The Null + not posted is completely random, the other three tiers are ordered intentionally from #1 most townie to #19 least townie. I moved my weakest early townread (Ceph) and weakest early scumread (MorningTweet) to their respective positions withinin the Null + posted tier. Barring some exceptional dayplay in a good or bad direction I don't think the players in the townread tier should go anywhere near the bottom of the PoE and I don't think the players in the scumread tier should go anywhere near the top of the PoE. I think the Null + posted is more townie than the Null + not posted by about a hair length, moreso toward the top of the tier than at the bottom.

[VP Baltar]

i think for now it might be ok to treat the bomb as an optional town directed kill, we do need to understand that mafia can choose the defuser while knowing the experts though and can potentially send someone they think is being misread by the experts

So basically, let's send four strong town reads as experts and they can decide whether to sabotage whoever is nommed as defuser.

but how do we get around this?

during the first 4 days, once someone has acted as a bomb expert, they are unable to be a bomb expert the next two nights, meaning they cannot be nominated.

[VP Baltar]

lol frog meme reads on page six is probably town frog

HEAL: frogster

[Frogsterking]

VP are you OK?

[VP Baltar]

I can't tell what determines how many bomb experts there are,

Here:

on night one, each bomb will have 4 experts. from night 2 and onwards, each bomb will have 3 experts, until there is 7 or fewer players alive. at that point, each bomb will have 2 experts.

[VP Baltar]

VP are you OK?

I have a packed work week, but yeah!

You think I shouldn't be able to read you?

[Morning Tweet]

The most intuitive way by far is to nominate 4 of the towniest experts, try to succeed, and if it fails we know at least a scum is in the group. So like resistance

But as mentioned, since scum chooses the defuser, they can reliably always stop us from succeeding a defusal, if they wish. Although it seems to me that they would have to send a scum player to sabotage the defuse, which would kill them in the process and therefore be worth it for town anyway

Is that not true? Although I see that 8 bombs need to be defused for a win, which seems like a ton

What is the biggest factor preventing us from just sending people to try and be bomb experts, like in resistance, have them try to succeed, and if there's a failure, it's guaranteed someone sabotaged so we still learn something?

If we play the other way, as catboi mentioned, scum gets an additional nightkill and we can't use the system. But we do stop them from being able to achieve their alternate wincon. Is their alternate wincon so likely though? If scum decides the defuser, and they have to put their own members in the defuser spot a bunch of times to win, and they also need to live, won't we notice that? It's gonna be a huge difference if scum nominates consensus townreads in other to nightkill them, versus tries to slip their own members in that chair. At least, to me it would seem that way

[VP Baltar]

there will be 2 bomb defusals on night 1, and 1 bomb defusal each following night.

oh shit, so we need 8 experts tonight?

(Welcome to VP reads the rules closely for the first time, a TED Talk)

[Morning Tweet]

And yes I'm sorry for probably rehashing what's already been talking about probably but it's the only way i can really participate in mech

The alternate wincons don't seem like something that will get completed, so much as something to make the bombs actually have some kind of stakes. At least, it seems to me that was the design goal anyway. whether or not it can be broken, ill leave up to others

[Frogsterking]

VP are you OK?

I have a packed work week, but yeah!

You think I shouldn't be able to read you?

You're scum by tone. And activity level. It could be NAI if there's something going on, but I think if there were something going on you would have said that at the beginning.

You haven't rolled scum in a while, have you VP?

[Morning Tweet]

i have never seen a slot like frog's in a large theme not be town, yet. the kinda person who tried to solve all 18 other players on page 10. This would be like the third time that i can remember though. i dont like larges

[VP Baltar]

VP are you OK?

I have a packed work week, but yeah!

You think I shouldn't be able to read you?

You're scum by tone. And activity level. It could be NAI if there's something going on, but I think if there were something going on you would have said that at the beginning.

You haven't rolled scum in a while, have you VP?

I think the last time I rolled scum wasn't that long ago. Was in a multiball game that Not Mafia hosted.

What do you mean said that at the beginning? That I have a lot of work this week?

[Frogsterking]

VP are you OK?

I have a packed work week, but yeah!

You think I shouldn't be able to read you?

You're scum by tone. And activity level. It could be NAI if there's something going on, but I think if there were something going on you would have said that at the beginning.

You haven't rolled scum in a while, have you VP?

I think the last time I rolled scum wasn't that long ago. Was in a multiball game that Not Mafia hosted.

What do you mean said that at the beginning? That I have a lot of work this week?

Yes. And I know what game you're referring to.

When was the last time you rolled scum before that?