KTaNE [game over!]

[VP Baltar]

the defuser and the experts are free to discuss the game as they wish.

definitely thinking the experts should take advantage of this and hold open court before getting to any of the minigame stuff. defuser should probably be excluded from discussion for the most part.

I agree with this. I'm sort of thinking about if we send 3 hard town reads with 1 null or scummier player as experts. Would that force the hand of the scummier person to solve the bomb properly or risk getting limmed the next day? Might be way too much wifom to actually be an effective strategy at narrowing pools though.

[Titus]

the defuser and the experts are free to discuss the game as they wish.

definitely thinking the experts should take advantage of this and hold open court before getting to any of the minigame stuff. defuser should probably be excluded from discussion for the most part.

I don't like the idea of excluding a diffuser. That's our last chance to read them.

[The Bulge]

although i guess we don't know the defuser until after twilight. if we're nominating consensus townies as experts, it should be up to them to decide amongst themselves in their hood, assuming open discussion is allowed.

Hard thing will be finding 8 consensus townies in the early game of a large probably.

actually, this raises a question for me:

mod, does town get to decide which chosen experts go to which bomb?

that's fair, but it's fine as long as there are a handful of strong townplayers, which all odds say there will be

[VP Baltar]

the defuser and the experts are free to discuss the game as they wish.

definitely thinking the experts should take advantage of this and hold open court before getting to any of the minigame stuff. defuser should probably be excluded from discussion for the most part.

I don't like the idea of excluding a diffuser. That's our last chance to read them.

Right but the point is whether they let the bomb blow or defuse it right? Defuser is going to have a biased take on that regardless. Obv, they should still talk, but the decision is completely out of their hands regardless.

[catboi]

scum can't just strongarm their wincon without the majority of them being widely townread. it would be very easy to catch on and simply eliminate scum and put a hiatus on defusing bombs.

Realistically you're going to be stacking the towncore as the expert on night 1, or at least you should. The players outside who are eligible to be defusers are going to be somewhere outside that, either in POE territory or light townleans. I don't really think town's collective ability is good enough to have all the scum players in a POE by the end of day 1 unless the mod rolled an absolute chump scumteam, meaning any scum team member who is somewhere in the territory of null to a townlean would be a reasonably "safe" pick for defuser.

The consideration here seems to be "yeah we'll be able to tell who is scum nominated for defuser versus town scum wants to kill" and I just think towns are rarely that good. Yes, some townies are just obvious, but I think the incentives motivate scum to not pick those players. (and as I have already said, I would oppose reflexively killing a consensus townread)

Had I rolled scum the plan would be something like put up two buddies to defuse the bomb night 1, possibly bussing a weaker teammate to position them if necessary, send myself as defuser night 2 or 3, maybe stall a night or two but then have a teammate repeat as the defuser if they're still sufficiently townread


Again, this disagreement feels largely theoretical and based around us having different expectations.

[Titus]

the defuser and the experts are free to discuss the game as they wish.

definitely thinking the experts should take advantage of this and hold open court before getting to any of the minigame stuff. defuser should probably be excluded from discussion for the most part.

I don't like the idea of excluding a diffuser. That's our last chance to read them.

Right but the point is whether they let the bomb blow or defuse it right? Defuser is going to have a biased take on that regardless. Obv, they should still talk, but the decision is completely out of their hands regardless.

Right, but the hood shouldn't talk exclusively about the bomb.

[Titus]

Why don't we just heal whoever puts out reads day 1 and go from there?

[The Bulge]

the defuser and the experts are free to discuss the game as they wish.

definitely thinking the experts should take advantage of this and hold open court before getting to any of the minigame stuff. defuser should probably be excluded from discussion for the most part.

I don't like the idea of excluding a diffuser. That's our last chance to read them.

hmmmmm yea i guess more info is more info. im just worried about a scum plant changing the course of discussion. giving them a voice in the pt gives scum more edge in their decision of who to nominate.

[The Bulge]

Again, this disagreement feels largely theoretical and based around us having different expectations.

i'm more curious about the fact your stance hasn't seemed to change since 21 despite mech discussions dominating large portions of the game so far.

[catboi]

Again, this disagreement feels largely theoretical and based around us having different expectations.

i'm more curious about the fact your stance hasn't seemed to change since 21 despite mech discussions dominating large portions of the game so far.

Because the counterarguments aren't particularly compelling to me. They assume different things about who scum will nominate and how well town will be able to sort out its reads. At this point since it's all hypothetical we can go in circles for days.

Do you think my stance not changing is meaningful for my alignment in some way?

[Andante]

LOL so I looked at this saw like "ORDER MATTERS" and was like, how the heck did you order the non posters... like yeah I'm town, but this sounds too good to be a true list... but then you specified the non poster order doesn't matter... (Definitely a tangent, but I had a good laugh and had to share)

LMFAO i mnissed that

^ This post feels so bad... Like, why are you asking someone why they don't like large games? what info from that answer do you want? Feels like you're just trying to "look busy"

You yourself just acknowledged that frog posted a readlist of every person in the game, ordered, including the nonposters.

how can you also bring up "busywork" in the same breath?

Yes, frog posted a "readslist" are you saying you believe a lot of thought went into it? It's just a list of names... no real reasons for why anyone is higher than another, I don't count that as a legit readslist... Not really sure what you're asking/accusing me of here tbh so if you want to clarify, I'd be happy to respond, but otherwise I'm leaving it at this

[Andante]

VOTE: Andante

you got a reason there?

[Andante]

I grossly disagree with using them to accelerate the game via double kills.

please read the game. or at least the rules.

I skimmed them. That is enough for now.

LOL I so feel this.. like, I barely understand the actual setup, but like, I'm just gonna focus on reads, and that should be plenty tbh

[Andante]

Because I don't like you.

... ok wow... game just started too

[Andante]

the "I don't like you" comment was a bit unnecessary and makes me not want to play rn so I'll be back later.

I didn't ever do anything to you and I don't care if you're scum advancing wincon that was not needed

hey there's like 20 people here!! just ignore the 1!! I'm happy to play this with you!! when you're back we can sort people if you want?

[Andante]

so much bomb talk... all I know is if a bomb is in front of me, I'm trying to diffuse it, and if you don't want me doing that, don't pick me. that simple

[Morning Tweet]

Not accusing u or anything no. I just think it wrong to accuse someone who is clearly setting themselves up to be very involved with the game as doing.. like, busywork. Busywork I usually associate with scum that dont know what to do with themselves, so they just ask questions and make obvious observations.

Like if you quote any other frog post, would you still call it busywork? Why is it the one time he asks a question that doesnt seem helpful to you, it's now busywork? Context is important

[Morning Tweet]

Why don't we just heal whoever puts out reads day 1 and go from there?

What does this mean?

[Morning Tweet]

Ohhhhh so the people we heal cant be killed or set as the defuse then? Ahhhh so in other words itd be much easier for scum to put themselves in the defuse seat. I think I understand you now @catboi

It's kind of up to us the pool scum picks from.. the dilemma makes a lit more sense now.

[Andante]

Not accusing u or anything no. I just think it wrong to accuse someone who is clearly setting themselves up to be very involved with the game as doing.. like, busywork. Busywork I usually associate with scum that dont know what to do with themselves, so they just ask questions and make obvious observations.

Like if you quote any other frog post, would you still call it busywork? Why is it the one time he asks a question that doesnt seem helpful to you, it's now busywork? Context is important

Well I mean, in general, I hate reads that don't have reasons attached, and meaningless questions/questions not followed up on, like those are the things I find maf doing the most, I'm not voting frogs or even pushing him right now, I look forward to hearing why frogs even cared you don't like large games... like I know it's a common thing, I'm not even a fan of giant games, so like, why was frogs curious enough to ask?? feels like just trying to look busy, and I mean, thinking back to the reads list, I don't love that either.. so ehhh it's just how my brain works, a few of these avatars are blending together and I skimmed some posts, so that's a thing, if frogs keeps up this pace of engagement, definitely gonna be town indicative, but like, I'm not calling anyone lock town/scum this early lol

[Andante]

itd be much easier for scum to put themselves in the defuse seat

if bomb explodes, diffuser dies

[Morning Tweet]

Yeah but if it dont and scum is the defuser it advances an alternate wincon.

And if we nominate town to be the experts, and those experts cant he the bomb defuser, then scum can sneak ppl into defuser spot more easily. If I'm understanding this correctly

[catboi]

Ohhhhh so the people we heal cant be killed or set as the defuse then? Ahhhh so in other words itd be much easier for scum to put themselves in the defuse seat. I think I understand you now @catboi

It's kind of up to us the pool scum picks from.. the dilemma makes a lit more sense now.

People who we vote as experts with the heal tag can be nightkilled, they cannot be set as the defuser. Scum only gain extra nightkills through successful defusals, though. Currently, they only have one.

so much bomb talk... all I know is if a bomb is in front of me, I'm trying to diffuse it, and if you don't want me doing that, don't pick me. that simple

I've been mainly mehanics talk partly because I haven't had the time to fully focus my attention on the game so any reads are pure gut feeling for the most part. More thought will come when I have time to actually read closely.

[Frogsterking]

LOL so I looked at this saw like "ORDER MATTERS" and was like, how the heck did you order the non posters... like yeah I'm town, but this sounds too good to be a true list... but then you specified the non poster order doesn't matter... (Definitely a tangent, but I had a good laugh and had to share)

Umm VP saying something about "I ask a lot of setup questions" felt really odd to me, like, I don't think anyone has a problem with the setup questions being adressed at the start of the game, I can go find the specific post if someone is dying to know, but it felt off.

Catboi vs Pooky was an interesting dynamic, umm not sure I want to share my thoughts there yet.

I thought it looked TvT but Catboi always looks town, not as sure about Pooky. That's why in my readslist I gave Pooky more credit for the interaction than Catboi.

I think VP is scum based on tone. Specifically VP is being self conscious and pensive. I think what VP is saying about trying to figure out the setup is true, I just scumread the way he comes off while going about it.

I'm trying to be methodical so to counter confbias I came up with three reasons I think I could be wrong: 1) VP is being really cautious because they want to get the setup mech right 2) something IRL like being in the middle of the work week or 3) I hate to say it but I think it's necessary for the whole self-disclosure credibility cycle, if VP hasn't rolled TPR in a while or they are just one of those people who play scummy when they get TPR intentionally or unintentionally, that could definitely explain what I'm observing as well, and it's important for me to recognize that on some level which I'm not good at doing yet.

^ This post feels so bad... Like, why are you asking someone why they don't like large games? what info from that answer do you want? Feels like you're just trying to "look busy"

I don't think this is fair at all?

Like I think it's fine to ask but I don't think the judgement is helpful in this case.

The main reason I asked is that I was genuinely curious why they didn't like large themes, the way their post trailed off at the end kind of looked like there might be a story there. If you look earlier MorningTweet and I established we probably haven't played together and don't know anything about each other, so I was more curious about MorningTweet themselves rather than specifically their reason for not liking large themes. I also don't agree that there is a specific kind of topic that's more likely to produce AI information, I think arguing about reads is helpful sometimes as well as just having organic conversation. In this case I had a question I wanted to ask to a player I just met and in the moment I was both curious and felt like it could be more fruitful for AI information than accusing them or asking about their reads.

And kinda with that, I believe it was Tweet that was like "I almost never see maf make a reads list like that this early" or something... I don't actually agree with much of that list, nor do I believe much work went into it, and if I had to guess, more work went into the format than the reads themselves, and like, if you're gonna repeat "THE ORDER MATTERS" like, why not give more on that? Ellaborate more on what makes someone slightly townier than someone else, cause you going "ORDER MATTERS ON MY RVS READS" means absolutely nothing... Like, you saying people at the bottom of your list can't possibly be town?? It feels really odd to me you're that confidint 100 posts into the game when most of the talk has been "idk how this works"

Lol I understand where you're coming from here. Thank you for noticing the effort I put into the formatting.

I repeated "order matters" because my first question whenever I see a reads list is if the order matters between the players within each category. I've also seen enough other players ask this question after a readlist gets posted that I wanted to make sure it was clear that the order did matter. I didn't post a lot of reasons because my reads aren't based on really logical deduction yet, they're almost completely based on intuition, if not completely based on intuition, so I can come up with reasons to justify why I subjectively put one player over and another, but it feels dishonest in a way to put that in the readslist because it implies the list is driven by logic, which it really isn't.

I'm also not confident in the list as much as I'm confident in my ability to create one, and in the benefit of creating one earlier, even if it's a bit rough. I'm hoping we will be able to make a townblock which can work together and construct a more accurate PoE via a readslist.

That being said, which parts of my readslist do you think could be made better?

[Titus]

Why don't we just heal whoever puts out reads day 1 and go from there?

What does this mean?

Ohhhhh so the people we heal cant be killed or set as the defuse then? Ahhhh so in other words itd be much easier for scum to put themselves in the defuse seat. I think I understand you now @catboi

It's kind of up to us the pool scum picks from.. the dilemma makes a lit more sense now.

Right. So if we put all the vocal people giving reads as heal targets, scum are forced to pick a lurker.