KTaNE [game over!]

[Andante]

Gotta keep talking so no one explodes!!!

[catboi]

@catboi alright, hmmm, yeah I know only 11 posts, like, it's not a SR I'd die on right now, but it's just, I can't get over the like "perfect takes" like, I'd SR that over bell's "look for yourself" reasoning, idk!! we'll see what happens

the townreads from CSF on you and frogsterking are, at this point, uncontroversial, and could come from either alignment. The confidence in those reads

could

be a scum POV but I wouldn't stake anything on it, and on a third reread I like the questioning toward dwlee, in particular 543. I think she's fine for now.


Meanwhile, I don't think Luke is posting from a town mindset, he's overly focused on playing defense, and I don't think 610 is a read town makes, like, ever.

[Lukewarm]

This rebuttal is so uninspired that you might as well have said “no, u”

no u

But also, was not a rebuttal. Was an answer to Andante's question.

[Lukewarm]

I don't think 610 is a read town makes, like, ever.

I'm currently working on a thing, which will talk more about the StrangeMatter Read.

But it is taking time to type up

[Andresvmb]

I have read the mechanics - I know there’s a lot of discussion in the early pages, and if the game has moved on I don’t want to necessarily rehash what has already been discussed.

Instinctively, I don’t see the benefit of settling in advance whether a particular bomb will be diffused. If we are all agreeing to let every bomb explode from N2 onwards, then we’re opening ourselves up for the Scum to constantly send the Towniest player in the game to be a Defuser. We also know that the Scum will definitely send the Towniest player alive if one of the experts is Scum, and they will certainly get blown up. Which means, the nights provide useful information that we can build on top of if we allow the Experts to make a call based on their collective perception of how Townie the Defuser is, as to whether to provide correct information. The Scum can’t just constantly send Town to be a Defuser (and solidly Town at that), because if the Experts are all Town, then they run the risk that they start clearing players without getting any NK’s through.

Can somebody tell me whether this logic makes sense? Basically, I don’t think we should settle on telegraphing in advance what the Experts will do, but that’s my first instinct.

I’ll read and try and form some views separate from mechanics.

[Andresvmb]

And it’s not diffused haha it’s defused.

[Andresvmb]

Now, I think the Scum get NK’s if we defuse bombs? But if we actively choose not to defuse a bomb, that player blows up. Like I think since both options are controlled by the Scum, but one lets us glean additional information about the other players being sent to be Experts, I think there’s some value in working to defuse the bomb when the Defuser seems Townie, and trying to sabotage that process when the player sent is potentially Scummy (which you’ll have to balance with the real knowledge that there’s a trade off in there somewhere of potentially blowing up Scummy looking Town players).

I don’t know, those are my thoughts. Basically, work to defuse if you think Town. Sabotage if you think Scum. Wait for the choices to be made. Actively try and get the Towniest players to be Experts. I think that’s a summary of what I think.

[VP Baltar]

Can somebody tell me whether this logic makes sense? Basically, I don’t think we should settle on telegraphing in advance what the Experts will do, but that’s my first instinct.

I think that is where the consensus maybe pooled around a little bit yes. There seem to be flaws in any plan that's set in one path, though I'll admit I didn't dedicate much brain power to thinking through that plan to stop defusing bombs after X nights.

[The Praetorian]

that is how i feel about the mechanic, andres.

Hood sorting to determine if the player deserves to live essentially.

do you have any initial reads so far?

[Andresvmb]

that is how i feel about the mechanic, andres.

Hood sorting to determine if the player deserves to live essentially.

do you have any initial reads so far?

Not yet. It’s going to take some time for me to catch up completely and it’s the middle of the work day for me.

I do think that whoever suggested in the early part that we should actively sabotage every bomb from N2 onwards is more likely to be Scum than not, only because there’s a massive advantage in knowing what the Town will do in the case when all of the Experts that are picked are Town. So I would highly scrutinize that slot (do not remember who it is). Other than that, I’m not so sure the mechanical discussion that was clearly the bulk of the conversation in the early part tells me much about anyone’s alignment. Like I would have to read what else has happened.

Oh, and Pooky - you seem to have voted for yourself to be an Expert at one point. You can’t vote for yourself. It’s in the rules.

[Titus]

I have looked at the VCs but not caught up. Why do I have expert noms? I have done shit.

[Dwlee99]

Dwlee you slipped an associative tell on one of your partners. If you look through your iso you'll see what I'm referring to.

Ceph is telling the truth though Dwlee, if you're town what do you think is the real reason we're tunneling each other?

Dwlee I think my push on you was obviously kind of shit, I'm thinking maybe your push on Andante was obviously kind of shit too, and we're both townies motivated by similar things?

And Ceph is the real scum here for trying to pocket me, TMIing us as town and staying out of the main conflicts?

This sequence is just very bad

[Dwlee99]

Are they using their trauma for good or evil

I think the best thing is to look past stuff like that and look at her analysis. She's enthusiastically solving and trying to analyze with some level of depth, so probably town.

Andante's scum game is perfectly capable and she can do enthusiasm as scum. This is a bad reason to townread her.

This is a very bad interpretation of what I said that almost misses the point entirely. The point is not that she is

posting

with enthusiasm but that her

solving

is enthusiastic. I could go at length to explain

If, in your estimation, she has a "capable" scum game, why is she clearly scum here?

I'm pretty sure she did the same thing in the ISO she linked (I was in that game)

I strongly dislike dwlee's Andante push.

Andante feels townish here, and I also know she's kind of an easy mislim having fallen into the trap of tunneling her more than once recently. I think dwlee knows this too.

That people are playing around her like this is actually what makes me think she is scum. She is actually townier as scum and that everyone townreads her when she is normally a controversial day one slot is very scum-indicative imo

That sh has a tendency to step on rakes is true, but isn't it just as possible that enough people here are familiar with her that they're less likely to misread her? I don't buy at all the argument that more people townreading her makes her scum.

I don't think this is true? How much experience does the playerlist have with Andante?

[Lukewarm]

Town

Spoiler: StrangeMatter

5870 - I very much like that SM was trying to move the conversation out of mech talk. +town points imo. 70 more so then 58.

87 I like they are questioning town reads on them instead of just accepting it, and it even lead into paranoia of the slot in 175

I stand by the fact that their reads list in 535 had a total of 3 names to be town indicative for them. SM was not even taking the time to flesh out most of the reasons, so could have easily put more names in there - even just copying a couple consensus reads.

I have also seen town!StangeMatter say the exact same general idea behind "Partial paranoia but he just feels like how he played in Mini 2265 and I can never get a read on him" in two separate games. Putting people down as scum leans because they bamboozled them in the past.

They did it with me here: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

They did it another time with Dwlee here: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13200640

This is distinctly in line with how town!StrangeMatter thinks about slots, even if it is a strange approach.

I like 546 as well

I would be VERY surprised it StrangeMatter flips scum here. SM is a LHF player that is often misread.

Spoiler: Greeting

Post 85 is singlehandedly holding this read up lol.
This strategy is built on a false premise, but is very clearly thought through with that premise. If that premise was correct, it would game break.

I cannot see this post coming from scum.

If Greeting really thought that that was the correct premise, then they never would have shared it, because it loses them the game and there was no expectation for them to be doing this anyways. Just ignore and hope no one finds it.

If Greeting knew that this was incorrect, that is a LOT of effort to get a townslip read. And it goes way more in depth and detailed then it would need to be if that was the goal.

Also, if the goal was "make a fake plan, so that someone can town read me for messing up" I doubt they double down in defending the plan, instead of thinking "objective achieved" in response to the town read from catboi outlining it. [see 94, 100, 105]

Spoiler: Titus

Figured I would explain the dumb working thing about 36. It was the asynchronous way she referred to the scum team in the conclusion of each line.

then they win | then scum lose
scum win | we win

I would expect scum to be thinking more to make sure they don't mess up and say we, us, them to refer to the wrong group. (which is why, more often then not, I expect something like that to actually be a town mistype). But in trying to make sure that in this repeated if then scenario, they were actually worried about that, I would expect it to be more consistent.

So, yeah. That was my dumb reason to town read titus.

Re: the "stop voting my mason." It distinctly reminded me of her town hunting approach in a prior game. I thought it was 2226, but looking back at that game I am not seeing exactly what I was reminded of... so it must have been a different game. Not trudging through all of my games to find it.

Morning Tweet

- Strong tonal / Gut feelings. Not things that I think would make sense to try and compile, but also felt myself nodding along to basically every single post she made.

Andante

- similar to Morning Tweet, but with a spicy splash of calling me town when I am getting scum read.

Null Town

Spoiler: Frogsterking

Might be surprised to see him here.

My main follow through with them was trying to make it make sense that I went from bottom of their poe with a vote -> middle of the pack without any input from me. Which took a frustratingly long time to get an understanding of. Like multiple times asking what was scummy in the original, and what made him stop thinking it was scummy. All of his responses were vague enough that I could not piece together the thought process. Post 410 finally got me there.

Now that I am no longer trying to solve that puzzle, I think that I like their iso.

I like the early town read on StrangeMatter. It originally pinged me because it seemed so definitive, but I am coming to realize that that is just the tone that Frogster is bringing to the table. (SM being called a weak town read ranked lower then Cephir not long after in post 88 clears that up a bit imo)

I originally didn't like the multiple comments about people trying to pocket them [526 and 565] because I have found that that is something scum comment on while trying to fake town thinking. BUT I did a meta dive, and found another town game where he had a similar approach to SomethingSmart Other
Game

Spoiler: The Praetorian

Random bulletproof claim in 176 seems real once I thought about it more. In this set up, it would make sense that if we have any kill stop moves they would not function on the bomb, and I have seen games where bulletproof only stops gun based deaths.So I like it as something that we would have as part of the set up.

I don't think it makes sense for us to have a vig in this set up, so I would not expect it on the mafia.

And then there is the seemingly unawareness of the fact that a bulletproof player should want to NOT be a bomb expert tonight. Which I feel like would have come up by someone in a scum chat if they talked about claiming bulletproof.

Spoiler: Cephrir

Generally vibing with Cephir's posts this game, but not sold on him as town.

Really liked post 134, which feels like to me that he is really thinking about optimal town play.

Random thought of the day: Someone mentioned he should be happier about being town, if town, because of how often he rolls scum. He was accused of this in Control, while playing scum. I kinda feel like scum!Cephir would be ready for that angle this game since there is quite an over lap of players [Bell, catboi, greeting, dwlee, andante], and would have thought to fake it this game.

[[I was planning on doing the whole playerlist, but god am I getting exhausted, gonna skip to the bottom and work my way up]]

Null

Menalque
GuiltyLion
Andresvmb

Null Scum

PookyTheMagicalBear (just a side note, I am notoriously bad at reading Pooky when Pooky is on their main)
The Bulge
Dwlee99
Bell

Scum

Spoiler: catboi

OMGUS

But for serious, I think that this is scum Catboi.

I have so many thoughts, but I feel like I am going to end up typing a thesis paper that won't convince anyone.... and I am struggling to express it in a way that is clear.

[I just typed out a rambling mess, and deleted it]

He feels like he is staking strategic positioning around people, vs naturally being in the game. I felt that way about his early interactions with Pooky (which also felt similar to the way he positioned around pooky in our Secret Hitler game), with the praetorian and mena in post 203, and with me.

His approach to me actually reminds me of scum!Prism's approach to me in our last game together, which was only the second ever time I have been miseliminated as town, so probably a good approach to have.

[omg , deleted another rambling mess.]

I am very certain in this read, but I don't think I type it out in a way that makes sense, so poo poo on me, I am actually just not good at the game.

Hey guys, if Catboi ever dies, and flips scum, probably look at Bell. If Catboi flips town, Bell can go up a couple notches on my reads list

Tried and failed repeatedly to get my thoughts out on Catboi. Which further exhausted me, and made me not really feel like attempting my weaker reads. So, this is what you guys get

UNVOTE:

[Dwlee99]

andante town
Lukewarm scum
vp still scum
Frogster town
Cephrir scum

just need one more, maybe bell randed scum again lul

@catboi alright, hmmm, yeah I know only 11 posts, like, it's not a SR I'd die on right now, but it's just, I can't get over the like "perfect takes" like, I'd SR that over bell's "look for yourself" reasoning, idk!! we'll see what happens

the townreads from CSF on you and frogsterking are, at this point, uncontroversial, and could come from either alignment. The confidence in those reads

could

be a scum POV but I wouldn't stake anything on it, and on a third reread I like the questioning toward dwlee, in particular 543. I think she's fine for now.


Meanwhile, I don't think Luke is posting from a town mindset, he's overly focused on playing defense, and I don't think 610 is a read town makes, like, ever.

We are

really

not syncing up here and I want to know why. I don't have a reason to think we would, particularly, but it feels like we are disagreeing on pretty much everything except that Luke could be scum.

[Dwlee99]

Ignore praetorian quote
VOTE: Lukewarm
No reason why I'm in null scum bad

[Datisi]

replacing Lukewarm.

[Dwlee99]

Frogster
Andante
Luke
Pooky
Andres
Are who I want to focus on this phase I think

[Dwlee99]

Actually catboi too I want that sorted
HURT: Catboi

[VP Baltar]

Frogster
Andante
Luke
Pooky
Andres
Are who I want to focus on this phase I think

Why andres?

[catboi]

That was, uh, a sequence.

Initial reaction to that readslist from lukewarm is that it's a hard scumclaim.

[The Praetorian]

luke, why do you believe my BP claim?

[The Praetorian]

I have looked at the VCs but not caught up. Why do I have expert noms? I have done shit.

you do well in hoods is part of my nom and you havent pinged me

[The Praetorian]

oh rofl

VOTE: lukewarm

seeya

[Titus]

That was, uh, a sequence.

Initial reaction to that readslist from lukewarm is that it's a hard scumclaim.

Why?