KTaNE [game over!]

[Andresvmb]

I’ve only read like the first 20 pages or so. I have to keep reading. But I see my name being called.

[fireisredsir]

can you give some thoughts while you're here

don't be like bulge and say you've caught up partway and then say nothing and disappear again

[Andresvmb]

Frogsterking, you’re being too unkind about my mechanical analysis. I understand that you perceive the win con to be impossible for Town to achieve. I agree. I disagreed with all the takes that leaned towards signaling in advance what to do purely out of a reflex to avoid telegraphing to the Scum what the Town would do. I understand the impulse to default to failure unless widely TR. I don’t disagree.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll just post my notes. So you’ll see where my heads been at.

[Frogsterking]

We're having tea andres! Do you like tea?

- some people are really efforting it up and i bet they're not all town
- lukewarm being confused by frog in 397 kinda feels fake, but who isn't confused by frog sometimes
- ayyy catboi's secret read is lukewarm, i like this development. locktown

Now fire, this part of 702 confused me quite a bit. I imagine catboi being locktown was hyperbole, and you're in lukewarms slot, but you wrote this part before replacing into the slot I think I remember you saying. Am I correct on all that? And which players were you referring to as efforting it up and not being town?

[Andresvmb]

35 - Good early reaction by catboi. Also thought early thoughts on setup were sufficiently pro-Town.
71 - Logic here from Lukewarm is exactly the same as mine in the early going.
85 - Greeting probably put too much effort trying to think of ways to break the game in favor of the Town to just be straight up Scum.
99 - This feels like too strong of a read too early for me. I have a hard time seeing how you can make any argument about VPB’s meta so quickly. I have not been liking frogsterking’s posting thus far.
113 - I don’t understand this at all, but just because I don’t agree, doesn’t make Titus Scum. I just wouldn’t trust them at all.
121 - I agree with the observation made by GuiltyLion here - the use of the word trash by frogsterking is too strong. I do have to say, I think my style clashes with Frogsterking, so I have to be careful about not falling for that trap.

[In general, I think those players arguing for just letting the bombs explode mindlessly in the early part of the game are suspicious. Not necessarily for the conclusion, but for the fact that they’re not thinking deeply about it and are looking for players to explode, which is more easily manipulated to favor the Scum.]

122 - Can’t disagree with Menalque’s vote here.
137 - I can’t say I agree with this set of reads, but it could just be because I’m viewing the game very differently from Frogsterking.
148 - Interestingly enough, I really don’t like this response from VPB. What does it matter when was the last time you rolled Scum? Like why do you feel self-conscious enough that you decide to actively state when you last rolled Scum? It’s irrelevant to your chances of being Scum in this game. The reflex to answer in this way feels like a bad sign.
151 - This is the answer I expected initially.
169 - I like this read from Frogsterking. At this point, I think I judged the slot too early, because I very much vibe with their take on VPB.

[I do not agree with the attacks by The Bulge and Andante on catboi. I’m starting to feel catboi is solidly Town.]

249 - I actually like the logic behind Titus’ post here.
261 - A bit too tryhardy for Scum.
307 - This observation from Dwlee99 I definitely agree with (about Cephrir).
327 - I do feel DW should be recognizing the obvious Town perspective from Andante though, even if they don’t think it’s their fault that a SR would tilt them.
330 - Pooky feels like they’re full of shit this game and wouldn’t trust them for anything.
367 - I don’t like how Bell is basically parroting VPB here. Too much suspicion onto Cephrir over not showing a lot of emotion about having rolled Town. Couldn’t the prevailing emotion just be relief? I don’t get it.

371 - I genuinely dislike this take from Bell.

[Andresvmb]

Lean Town
{Greeting, catboi, Frogsterking}
Slight Lean Town
{Lukewarm, StrangeMatter, Titus, Andante}
Neutral
{ }
Slight Lean Scum
{PookyTheMagicalBear, VP Baltar, The Bulge, Bell}

[Andresvmb]

Sorry it’s taking me so long to get into this game. I really like Datisi so I signed up for this game, and the mechanics looked dope.

[Andresvmb]

But I tend to do poorly on trying to keep up when I’m playing in more than one game at a time, and that’s a bit what’s happening to me right now.

[Andresvmb]

Those are early takes through post ~400. I just need to keep reading, and I’ll keep updating my takes. I don’t have everyvody’s names in the pyramid because it’s obviously not finalized and I just didn’t have much to go on for certain slots.

[Frogsterking]

I’ll just post my notes. So you’ll see where my heads been at.

can you give some thoughts while you're here

don't be like bulge and say you've caught up partway and then say nothing and disappear again

That's right andres! I have faith that fire will help me wagon you if you disappear again.

Let's just have a nice chat and figure out where your heads been at. I think you'll be pleased to know, andres, that you also have a chance to convince me you're town.

Pedit:

Ah, let's see. fire, no rush, please answer my questions in 1529 when you feel ready. I can multitask with you and andres here. Maybe we will all townread each other and we can be Town Core B! "Plan B" it's called.

[Enchant]

Lean Town
{Greeting, catboi, Frogsterking}
Slight Lean Town
{Lukewarm, StrangeMatter, Titus, Andante}
Neutral
{ }
Slight Lean Scum
{PookyTheMagicalBear, VP Baltar, The Bulge, Bell}

Who the hell is Bulge

[Andresvmb]

I realize they’re no longer in the game. I just want to make sure you see how I perceived the slot before replacing, because sometimes it does help with figuring out how you see a player. If a predecessor is very Towny, it can help sway the way I look at the new player.

[fireisredsir]

Now fire, this part of 702 confused me quite a bit. I imagine catboi being locktown was hyperbole, and you're in lukewarms slot, but you wrote this part before replacing into the slot I think I remember you saying. Am I correct on all that? And which players were you referring to as efforting it up and not being town?

correct on all counts, yes. i liked catboi's read and so i thought he was town, even though now i know he was wrong i still think it likely comes from town. the locktown was an exaggeration but my immediate reaction was along the lines of "haha, yes! yes!!". i know that people don't like when replacements comment on their prior slot's play but i thought it was relevant here and didn't really care to censor myself

the people that i thought were efforting it up were you, andante, greeting, catboi, plus tweet and bulge in the mech discussion at least. i was musing that probably not all of those were town. I thought of those, you, catboi, and greeting looked the most town. i also thought andante was scummy at the time, so i was mostly referring to her, but i think she got townier later. i gutread tweet as scummy for something unrelated, so I guess she counts, but i don't think i was thinking of her when I wrote that. bulge i have no idea, didn't say much ai imo

[Frogsterking]

35 - Good early reaction by catboi. Also thought early thoughts on setup were sufficiently pro-Town.
71 - Logic here from Lukewarm is exactly the same as mine in the early going.
85 - Greeting probably put too much effort trying to think of ways to break the game in favor of the Town to just be straight up Scum.

Yes, now andres I have similar questions for you that I had for fire on this first three.

The early setup spec was sufficiently pro town, what do you mean by this?

Here you say the logic from Lukewarm is exactly the same as yours in the early going. How does this make you feel?

Now you're also townreading Greeting it seems for their early ways to try and break the game. How certain were you that Greeting was town when you saw this?

[fireisredsir]

148 - Interestingly enough, I really don’t like this response from VPB. What does it matter when was the last time you rolled Scum? Like why do you feel self-conscious enough that you decide to actively state when you last rolled Scum? It’s irrelevant to your chances of being Scum in this game. The reflex to answer in this way feels like a bad sign.

wasn't he directly asked? why is it bad that he answered the question

[Enchant]

ehh might not be textbook scum enchant, but this feels very similar to when enchant repped into a scum slot recently and did 0 solving, just was there, I could be wrong, but it's like definitely not "FOR SURE TOWN" enchant as dwlee was saying

Keeping streak of misreading me still?

[Frogsterking]

Okay, I'm starting to understand now fire.

- 487 gutread tweet is scummy
- as of 546ish, strangematter feels... floaty? like she's not really engaged w/ the game just kinda existing and not poking out too much. potentially sus
- as of 561 frog is kinda making me want to yeet him so I don't really blame dwlee that much. but i think frog is more likely town

Now here I feel like there is a lot of insight and it kind of all just comes tumbling out at the same time. Dwlee is a townread of yours? And Strange is a scum lean would you say? Would you say that Strange is comparable to Tweet here, are Strange and Tweet different kinds of scummy or different levels of scummy?

[Andresvmb]

My initial interpretation of the setup, and how I felt Town should act, is for everyone to see. I initially weighed the alternative win condition as follows:
The Scum are more often than not going to send Town players to defuse bombs. Why? Because if one of their own is nominated to be an Expert, they can benefit tremendously from giving incorrect instructions and blowing that player up as a replacement for having no free Night Kill. Yes, they gain NK’s for defusing bombs, and can get closer to their own alternative win condition as well, but with players that are naturally skeptical, it is far more likely in my mind that Town players will choose to sabotage the process at night if they have a suspicion that the player that has been nominated to defuse is Scum, precisely because the Scum win much faster by defusing bombs. If we start executing Scum, do you really feel like they’ll start putting their own as potential Defusers, when they’re doing so much better by simply fooling the Town? At least in the early part of the game. Later, I can understand why there’s going to be a natural inclination to not want to defuse any bombs (purely as a conservative move to avoid giving the Scum the chance to send one of their own and win). And if they have a few of their own members as Experts, they can almost limit the risk that a player will individually pick to sabotage the process and blow them up. But think about it for the first few bombs. The Scum know the probability that they have full control of any one bomb is a near impossible occurrence, and losing members of their own Team so early is a very risky proposition. Do you really see them sending some of their own on the first few tries? I don’t. That drove my initial reaction. As advice for the first few nights, I stand by my conclusions.

[Andresvmb]

I made a wrong statement - I meant to say, if we start executing Scum, the risk that their Team dwindles too quickly (way before they get close to defusing 4 bombs) feel like too great of a risk to start putting their own members up. I think it’s probably easier to try and play it straight, occasionally having to switch it up by sending players that are not obvious Town and sometimes their own members, but I do think the Town will default to being skeptical, and I don’t think they’ll undervalue their own Team members.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Frogster, didn't fire claim that 702 was written before he replaced in?

If so, I'm not sure the post is AI.

[Bell]

Waiting on the rest for 1530. Thanks for finding the time.

[Andresvmb]

But now that I’ve had some more time to think about it, I do agree that the default should be sabotage unless you’re fairly sure the player Defusing is Town. And this should be even more the case if we’re starting to catch Scum or cornering them, because then they’ll feel pressure to go for the alternative win condition instead of trying to win by fooling Town.

[fireisredsir]

Now here I feel like there is a lot of insight and it kind of all just comes tumbling out at the same time. Dwlee is a townread of yours? And Strange is a scum lean would you say? Would you say that Strange is comparable to Tweet here, are Strange and Tweet different kinds of scummy or different levels of scummy?

at the time, dwlee was a townread. now, less so.

strange was a scumlean at that time but some people have said that she is kind of like that all the time. so id still have her on the scum side of the table but im not very interested in pushing there yet, i think other places are more interesting

tweet is def a different kind of scummy. strange was like a positioning scummy, tweet was more of a gut read based on the way she was approaching forming her posts. at the time idk who was stronger, but currently tweet is def a stronger scumread, and i think (partly due to lion writing things out) i also have a better sense of what exactly i found scummy about her posts

[Bell]

This is a good town imo. It feels sort of like there are a bunch of sharks in here.
No idea if we're gunna get owned tho. There's always a risk of scum getting out of the tank.