KTaNE [game over!]

[Andresvmb]

In the early going, did Pooky did anything that you felt was game advancing? Like seriously. The post I highlighted is Pooky giving a complete bullshit reason to vote someone (they “feel like they picked a red PM”), and then proceeding to throw out a few half-assed accusations at players (like Morning Tweet). Did you find any of that Townie?

[Andresvmb]

^@Menalque

[Menalque]

It's not that I disliked it in and of itself -- it's that it was a very barebones and unconstructed thought which is exactly the sort of shit that I and other scum like to throw out

because it's the illusion of saying something while not actually backing it up with anything that can be (a) checked or (b) argued against really. the more fleshed out version is much more helpful.

my understanding of andante is that she's a tryhard most of the time, so it seemed off that you were suggesting the tryhardy-ness made her town.

also, just ignore frog if he's getting to you

could you try to go into some more depth on your thoughts re: pooky and that post by bell in the same way you just did on andante pls?

I’m not you. I don’t care what you do as Scum. Have you seen me play Scum? Do I make unconstructed and partial arguments when I’m trying to avoid suspicion as that alignment? Like that’s relevant.

And you can say that you think it’s throwing random shit to try and appear to be contributing. But is that really what you believe? Have I not followed up on certain comments with specifically what drove my reaction? Is that not helpful?

bro, I'm gonna say this once: I'm not the enemy here (unless ur scum lol)

I know that being pushed can be frustrating. I'm trying to get to a more confident read on you, and part of that is me explaining why I think the things I do and trying to see if I can understand/believe the things you say. me explaining how I view the game and it being related to how I play scum doesn't mean that I expect every player to do the same. it does prime me to notice that behaviour more and to be more inclined to scumread it until I have a good alternative explanation for it. I've also said at least once and I think more than that that I'm not really using meta these days

if you think my direct questions are things that you've already answered, please point me to them if you don't wanna repeat yourself. but I'm also struggling to keep up and so I'm choosing to not put too much stock into reading through stuff if there's not a specific thing I'm looking at, and instead I'm trying to get my reads from when I have the chance to actually engage with people

pedit: "frog isn't getting to me. frog is playing in a way that'll make it harder for town to win" bruh in what sense does that not meet the definition of getting to you unless you're not annoyed that frog is making it harder for town to win

[Andresvmb]

hey Andres, real quick q: did you see my post explaining why you're in my pool of people I'd be down to kill and if so did you respond? I skimmed ur iso just now real quick and couldn't find it

Look Menalque there’s like 5 players that are making the same sort of argument about why I’m Scum. I don’t care to fight every damn case about my slot. I haven’t fully caught up, and I’m still reading, so if there’s something specific you want to ask while I’m here do it.

and what are the odds all 5 of them are scum... like, if you're town (idk my read on you yet) my guess is first SR was town, and scum went "oh yeah! easy push cause he doesn't talk!!"
I don't believe all 5 pushing you with the same reasoning are town... but that's just my two cents

Frog is way wrong, but probably Town. Scum sees that, and is ABSOLUTELY taking advantage of it. Loud players that are wrong and thing the right way to play is to yell their position repeatedly are a god-send for Scum. Someone in there is being lazy and thinks Frog’s reasoning is correct. Which do you even understand, btw?

I mean, I think I asked for the case on you, got a bad answer, and went "mmmk whatever yall, don't have time for this" and walked away tbh
idk what my reads even are, I saw Mena posted actual content after my vote there, so I'm a tad sus of mena if I'm gonna be honest, and I think my reads are opposite of like everyone, so I'm just chilling

Now let me ask you this - if you think the reasoning is bad, why aren’t you more actively pushing against it or asking questions? I might have missed it, but it’s not like I have an insignificant amount of pressure on me. Do you not care if I’m executed?

[Menalque]

In the early going, did Pooky did anything that you felt was game advancing? Like seriously. The post I highlighted is Pooky giving a complete bullshit reason to vote someone (they “feel like they picked a red PM”), and then proceeding to throw out a few half-assed accusations at players (like Morning Tweet). Did you find any of that Townie?

I think the number of games where I've found pooky to do anything game advancing that's not just pushing a scumread he's come to as a result of whatever his process is could prob be counted on one hand that's missing all the fingers

I don't find it townie, but I also don't find it scummy. I just find it to be pooky

(yes, I'm aware that meta is influencing this, but I know pooky ~well compared to most of this PL and hey, I'm human)

[Menalque]

Andante, I'm pretty sure you just don't know how to read me which is fair enough honestly, I'm a hard read for those unused to me

and TALKING of that, fire, why did hearing about my backstory/history as a player not affect your read on me after GL + catboi answered?

[Andante]

hey Andres, real quick q: did you see my post explaining why you're in my pool of people I'd be down to kill and if so did you respond? I skimmed ur iso just now real quick and couldn't find it

Look Menalque there’s like 5 players that are making the same sort of argument about why I’m Scum. I don’t care to fight every damn case about my slot. I haven’t fully caught up, and I’m still reading, so if there’s something specific you want to ask while I’m here do it.

and what are the odds all 5 of them are scum... like, if you're town (idk my read on you yet) my guess is first SR was town, and scum went "oh yeah! easy push cause he doesn't talk!!"
I don't believe all 5 pushing you with the same reasoning are town... but that's just my two cents

Frog is way wrong, but probably Town. Scum sees that, and is ABSOLUTELY taking advantage of it. Loud players that are wrong and thing the right way to play is to yell their position repeatedly are a god-send for Scum. Someone in there is being lazy and thinks Frog’s reasoning is correct. Which do you even understand, btw?

I mean, I think I asked for the case on you, got a bad answer, and went "mmmk whatever yall, don't have time for this" and walked away tbh
idk what my reads even are, I saw Mena posted actual content after my vote there, so I'm a tad sus of mena if I'm gonna be honest, and I think my reads are opposite of like everyone, so I'm just chilling

Now let me ask you this - if you think the reasoning is bad, why aren’t you more actively pushing against it or asking questions? I might have missed it, but it’s not like I have an insignificant amount of pressure on me. Do you not care if I’m executed?

Cause I have like no motivation? I mean, idk what my reads really are anymore, real life kept coming up, I've been busy, I think that's been pretty obvious by my drop in activity... idk what the VC is, idk the deadline, I have a few people I'm looking at, but that's about it, like I came back to 600 posts, when I was last here you had no posts, that is not my fault. so how would you expect me to have a strong enough TR on you to fight to save you here?? just doesn't make sense... cause legit the last stuff from you was like "I'll post later"

[Andante]

but I'm just saying, if 5 people have the exact same reasoning for voting you, there's no way all of them are town

[Andresvmb]

It's not that I disliked it in and of itself -- it's that it was a very barebones and unconstructed thought which is exactly the sort of shit that I and other scum like to throw out

because it's the illusion of saying something while not actually backing it up with anything that can be (a) checked or (b) argued against really. the more fleshed out version is much more helpful.

my understanding of andante is that she's a tryhard most of the time, so it seemed off that you were suggesting the tryhardy-ness made her town.

also, just ignore frog if he's getting to you

could you try to go into some more depth on your thoughts re: pooky and that post by bell in the same way you just did on andante pls?

I’m not you. I don’t care what you do as Scum. Have you seen me play Scum? Do I make unconstructed and partial arguments when I’m trying to avoid suspicion as that alignment? Like that’s relevant.

And you can say that you think it’s throwing random shit to try and appear to be contributing. But is that really what you believe? Have I not followed up on certain comments with specifically what drove my reaction? Is that not helpful?

bro, I'm gonna say this once: I'm not the enemy here (unless ur scum lol)

I know that being pushed can be frustrating. I'm trying to get to a more confident read on you, and part of that is me explaining why I think the things I do and trying to see if I can understand/believe the things you say. me explaining how I view the game and it being related to how I play scum doesn't mean that I expect every player to do the same. it does prime me to notice that behaviour more and to be more inclined to scumread it until I have a good alternative explanation for it. I've also said at least once and I think more than that that I'm not really using meta these days

if you think my direct questions are things that you've already answered, please point me to them if you don't wanna repeat yourself. but I'm also struggling to keep up and so I'm choosing to not put too much stock into reading through stuff if there's not a specific thing I'm looking at, and instead I'm trying to get my reads from when I have the chance to actually engage with people

pedit: "frog isn't getting to me. frog is playing in a way that'll make it harder for town to win" bruh in what sense does that not meet the definition of getting to you unless you're not annoyed that frog is making it harder for town to win

You’re insinuating Frog is getting under my skin. They aren’t. That’s what I meant. Being annoyed at a player making it harder for Town to win isn’t the same as being annoyed at their silly arguments against me.

And Menalque I don’t know your alignment. You’re in a way feeding the beast by asking questions that you aren’t willing to provide your thinking around, but leaving it open for others to use it to attack me.

For example, by saying that you as Scum might post something unconstructed and not that well thought out, you are saying (without having to say it directly) that I could be doing that as Scum. So instead of actively having to say I think you’re Scum because your post was unconstructed in a way that I think Scum you would do, you open up the possibility that someone could grab your argument and use it as a reason to SR me without taking ownership of what you’re putting forth. But ultimately, the argument you put forth is bogus - it doesn’t matter what you would do as Scum when reading me. It matters whether I would do it as Scum or not. I don’t know whether you are or aren’t the enemy - that’s a bit the point isn’t it?

If you’re not reading through most things and just actively choosing to participate in the game whenever you want, I’m not sure I need to be responding by pointing to my previous answers. The onus is on you to get the anew right by actually reading through my posts. I don’t have the time to be spoon feeding you what I’ve said previously, and will not be doing that.

[Andresvmb]

^get the answer right*

[Andresvmb]

but I'm just saying, if 5 people have the exact same reasoning for voting you, there's no way all of them are town

I know you meant Scum, and that’s fine. I’m not saying they’re all Scum. What I am saying is that they’re wrong, and Scum is taking advantage of the loud player pushing nonsense. I don’t think I ever said everyone arguing against me was Scum.

[Andresvmb]

hey Andres, real quick q: did you see my post explaining why you're in my pool of people I'd be down to kill and if so did you respond? I skimmed ur iso just now real quick and couldn't find it

Look Menalque there’s like 5 players that are making the same sort of argument about why I’m Scum. I don’t care to fight every damn case about my slot. I haven’t fully caught up, and I’m still reading, so if there’s something specific you want to ask while I’m here do it.

and what are the odds all 5 of them are scum... like, if you're town (idk my read on you yet) my guess is first SR was town, and scum went "oh yeah! easy push cause he doesn't talk!!"
I don't believe all 5 pushing you with the same reasoning are town... but that's just my two cents

Frog is way wrong, but probably Town. Scum sees that, and is ABSOLUTELY taking advantage of it. Loud players that are wrong and thing the right way to play is to yell their position repeatedly are a god-send for Scum. Someone in there is being lazy and thinks Frog’s reasoning is correct. Which do you even understand, btw?

I mean, I think I asked for the case on you, got a bad answer, and went "mmmk whatever yall, don't have time for this" and walked away tbh
idk what my reads even are, I saw Mena posted actual content after my vote there, so I'm a tad sus of mena if I'm gonna be honest, and I think my reads are opposite of like everyone, so I'm just chilling

Now let me ask you this - if you think the reasoning is bad, why aren’t you more actively pushing against it or asking questions? I might have missed it, but it’s not like I have an insignificant amount of pressure on me. Do you not care if I’m executed?

Cause I have like no motivation? I mean, idk what my reads really are anymore, real life kept coming up, I've been busy, I think that's been pretty obvious by my drop in activity... idk what the VC is, idk the deadline, I have a few people I'm looking at, but that's about it, like I came back to 600 posts, when I was last here you had no posts, that is not my fault. so how would you expect me to have a strong enough TR on you to fight to save you here?? just doesn't make sense... cause legit the last stuff from you was like "I'll post later"

I empathize with life getting in the way. But you also did say that you thought the reasoning I was getting voted was bad, and instead of engaging with the reasoning (you could have me as null and still do this), you walked away. I’m not expecting you to have me sorted if you haven’t had a chance to read through my posts, but at the end of the day that’s your responsibility and not mine.

[Andante]

right, so who are the 5?

[Andresvmb]

In the early going, did Pooky did anything that you felt was game advancing? Like seriously. The post I highlighted is Pooky giving a complete bullshit reason to vote someone (they “feel like they picked a red PM”), and then proceeding to throw out a few half-assed accusations at players (like Morning Tweet). Did you find any of that Townie?

I think the number of games where I've found pooky to do anything game advancing that's not just pushing a scumread he's come to as a result of whatever his process is could prob be counted on one hand that's missing all the fingers

I don't find it townie, but I also don't find it scummy. I just find it to be pooky

(yes, I'm aware that meta is influencing this, but I know pooky ~well compared to most of this PL and hey, I'm human)

I don’t agree with your meta take on Pooky. But weren’t you just saying that you don’t rely on meta? Like if a player isn’t doing anything game advancing, shouldn’t you be skeptical? You’re giving Pooky a pass because you think they play erratically and quirky in a way you don’t fully understand. And that’s totally fine btw I don’t think I’m offended by that. But the reasoning that they actually expressed for voting seems just so superficial and vague that it should raise some suspicion. It’s why they were voted by multiple players immediately after. I agree with the immediate reactions.

[Andresvmb]

right, so who are the 5?

CSF, Frog, fire (they’ve now gone back on it), Bell (also have largely retracted their SR), VPB. Off the top of my head. Menalque to some extent too.

[Andresvmb]

wrt andres i feel like posts like 1543, 1559, and 1594 come off as more theory than solving in a way i think is scum indicative

his last two posts are pretty towny though

so i'd rather he follow up on his posts and go from there

Oh and Mistyx too.

[Menalque]

1 You’re insinuating Frog is getting under my skin. They aren’t. That’s what I meant. Being annoyed at a player making it harder for Town to win isn’t the same as being annoyed at their silly arguments against me.

And Menalque I don’t know your alignment. You’re in a way feeding the beast by asking questions that you aren’t willing to provide your thinking around, but leaving it open for others to use it to attack me.

For example, 2 by saying that you as Scum might post something unconstructed and not that well thought out, you are saying (without having to say it directly) that I could be doing that as Scum. So instead of actively having to say I think you’re Scum because your post was unconstructed in a way that I think Scum you would do, you open up the possibility that someone could grab your argument and use it as a reason to SR me without taking ownership of what you’re putting forth. But ultimately, the argument you put forth is bogus - 3 it doesn’t matter what you would do as Scum when reading me. It matters whether I would do it as Scum or not. I don’t know whether you are or aren’t the enemy - that’s a bit the point isn’t it?

4 If you’re not reading through most things and just actively choosing to participate in the game whenever you want, I’m not sure I need to be responding by pointing to my previous answers. The onus is on you to get the anew right by actually reading through my posts. I don’t have the time to be spoon feeding you what I’ve said previously, and will not be doing that.

(1) that wasn't what I meant to insinuate by "getting to you" I just meant "getting on your nerves" as in, finding him annoying for whatever reason

(2) okay, but I already said that you were in my pool and the whole purpose of this was to try and sort you better. I think it would be hard for us to have an interaction where I'm not explaining any of how I'm reasoning around your slot or why I've felt the ways I have

(3) you're absolutely right that it matters more what you would do as scum than what I would do, when it comes to reading you! but as always, my jumping off point has to be from myself. trying to understand what you would/wouldn't do requires me talking to you and trying to get a model of how you're thinking about the game. until doing that, I have to assume that scum do have some things in common with how I play scum even if their methods for achieving them are different (e.g. most scum need to try to look like town most of the time (goal A) --> i would only do things as scum (behaviour X) if this is my objective if I think they would benefit goal A --> if I see someone doing behaviour X, I am suspicious until I understand why they are doing it and believe that the reason is not goal A, looking like town

(4) I mean we can talk onus as much as we want but I'm willing to put in effort up to a certain point that's healthy for me as a way of participating. if you're not willing to point to previous answers, that's your right in the same way that capping my effort off is mine. if neither of us care that much, the odds of winning go down, and that may just be a fact of life. but if you care about it more than me (which idk, maybe is, maybe isn't true) then it's in your interest to spoon feed me sometimes

pedit: also I'm absolutely not one of the people pushing you, I'm not really pushing anyone

[Andresvmb]

Yes Frog is annoying. What else is new.

[Andresvmb]

Have you sorted me better?

[Menalque]

But weren’t you just saying that you don’t rely on meta?

pedit: we're getting there

[fireisredsir]

and TALKING of that, fire, why did hearing about my backstory/history as a player not affect your read on me after GL + catboi answered?

GL said that you didn't want to try as hard anymore but that he believed that deep in your heart you still would want to tryhard if you rolled maf, and that you were laid-back and not caring.

catboi said that you seemed unbothered and not awkward.

i disagreed bc part of what pinged me was something along the lines of awkwardness, and i definitely didn't feel laid-back vibes. the bit about tryharding, that's fine i guess, but i think i would need to know you personally for me to believe that as a reason to change my read on you. it doesn't really do much for me hearing it second-hand

[Andresvmb]

And it’s not that I don’t want to provide answers. It’s that I don’t have the time to be constantly pointing to older posts of mine. I don’t wan that to be the standard because I can’t meet that and it’ll just annoy me.

[Greeting]

The Bulge

was very clearly in a gamesolving mindset.

Enchant

's slot is probably town.

[Greeting]

And yeah, I can see why people townread

Andante

now. I'm okay with being with her and

Frogsterking

on the bomb solving team. I am unsure about

catboi

though ugh.

HEAL: Andante

Also, I may have been overly enthusiastic about

Morning Tweet

's slot. Her idea in 128 was really questionable. I focused more on the tone and less on the content here.

HURT: Mistyx

[Menalque]

Have you sorted me better?

to elaborate a bit more in response: I'm conflicted on your slot still. I feel better than I did and think I no longer want you dead today. however there are enough things that I consider iffy that I'm not willing to sort you as town yet. I'm often somewhat cagey about sharing my full logic around people and I'm gonna hold back on what I think are the reasons to be good on your slot to avoid you/others noting them and trying to copy them

the reasons why I still feel bad about your slot are:
- you've seemed quite defensive. I'm open to this being the result of feeling like the push on you is shit/that frog in particular is reading you for bad reasons, but I also think being overly defensive is often a scum trait due to
- being overly sensitive to negative attention -- as scum numbers are much lower, I think scum tend towards overreacting/misperceiving very soft pressure on them as being more serious than it is. I don't really think you've been at much risk of lim/idk why anyone would be particularly worried what frog thinks of them regardless of the fact he's been trying to cast himself in the town leader role and has been the most active player thus far.
- your issues with pooky seem implausible to me as someone who has extensive experience with him, but this could be difference of perception

overall, you're probably back in like null-nullscum now, but when I have other reads I wanna talk to you about I'll come back to see if that gets me clearer on you

and TALKING of that, fire, why did hearing about my backstory/history as a player not affect your read on me after GL + catboi answered?

GL said that you didn't want to try as hard anymore but that he believed that deep in your heart you still would want to tryhard if you rolled maf, and that you were laid-back and not caring.

catboi said that you seemed unbothered and not awkward.

i disagreed bc part of what pinged me was something along the lines of awkwardness, and i definitely didn't feel laid-back vibes. the bit about tryharding, that's fine i guess, but i think i would need to know you personally for me to believe that as a reason to change my read on you. it doesn't really do much for me hearing it second-hand

that's not quite what GL said but close enough

I guess it still seems odd to me to solicit meta-info on me as a player only to immediately dismiss it as it relates to your own read. still making up my mind on that overall -- like why ask for second-hand meta then?

pedit: greeting, I too would like to be a bomb expert