Open 848: Chromavalon: A Bouquet of Colors [Game Over]

[butterflies]

I will say that I'm not especially a fan of furtive dropping a wall post then peaceing out. Sure, maybe they're busy IRL, but I feel like town after "blowing the game wide open" should be excited, interested in talking about their reads, convincing people, interacting, seeing people's reactions, and so on. Scum after dropping a wall post might feel like they've done their job and can coast.

I agree with you, there’s definitely a lamisty quality about his posting. Plus there’s his really questionable comments about the muses which Progo was also initially onboard with.

I can see connections with him, Progo and Dunn. Progo wks furtive, Dunn objects to Progo wagon, sheeps furtive on Noraa and has 0 interest in reacessing that read, eventhough two people have disagreed with it.

~Nancyfly

[furtiveglance]

Two pages have been added since I went to sleep. I don't think I 'peaced out' for more than about 15 hours. I'll make a few points here. Firstly, butterflies is scumreading both Progo and me for comments about strategy. This is inherently both redundant and pointless, because 1) all we said was that Muses should influence the game rather than leaving us 8v3 Mountainous (which is exactly what implosion said in 55, and 2) supposing I was mafia, or Progo was mafia (which they might well be), why would we make (according to butterflies) posts that aren't protown? I appreciate the attempts to solve, but this strategy talk is really NAI for me. I only read alignment into it when people aren't giving enough analysis. The TLDR on that one is scumreading players for strategy talk is not valid. Find new reasons to scumread me, because a scumcase based on my strategic Musings is very weak indeed.

I've also received some pushback for my scumread on Noraa. I don't give players +town for tunneling (as ze seem to be doing with Dunnstral). As I explained in my readslist, I don't see how Dunnstral could be anything more than Null with how little they've posted. Experienced scum know that poeple give towncredit for pushing. I think what is harder to do as mafia is give reads on the entire player list, which is what I'd like to see from zir. butterflies says in 174 that Noraa is obviously not getting eliminated today. Why not? and why does that make zir a 'safe vote'?

[butterflies]

Two pages have been added since I went to sleep. I don't think I 'peaced out' for more than about 15 hours. I'll make a few points here. Firstly, butterflies is scumreading both Progo and me for comments about strategy. This is inherently both redundant and pointless, because 1) all we said was that Muses should influence the game rather than leaving us 8v3 Mountainous (which is exactly what implosion said in 55, and 2) supposing I was mafia, or Progo was mafia (which they might well be), why would we make (according to butterflies) posts that aren't protown? I appreciate the attempts to solve, but this strategy talk is really NAI for me. I only read alignment into it when people aren't giving enough analysis. The TLDR on that one is scumreading players for strategy talk is not valid. Find new reasons to scumread me, because a scumcase based on my strategic Musings is very weak indeed.

I've also received some pushback for my scumread on Noraa. I don't give players +town for tunneling (as ze seem to be doing with Dunnstral). As I explained in my readslist, I don't see how Dunnstral could be anything more than Null with how little they've posted. Experienced scum know that poeple give towncredit for pushing. I think what is harder to do as mafia is give reads on the entire player list, which is what I'd like to see from zir. butterflies says in 174 that Noraa is obviously not getting eliminated today. Why not? and why does that make zir a 'safe vote'?

Who gave you pushback on Noraa vote? I gave Dunn pushback on Noraa.

VOTE: Dunn

[butterflies]

At the beginning of the game,

the Mafia Goons are given a list of 5 town, including the 3 Merlins and 2 random Vanilla Townies. They will not know which is which

. The Mafia cannot nightkill any of these 5 players on the first night.

This is why muses revealing is so bad, scum already knows that in that group of 5, 3 are Merlins, so they start the game with a 60% chance of correctly guessing who the muses are. So they might not know who the Merlins are but they 100% know who they’re not. So scum start the game knowing that 3/8 players are vts.

~Nancyfly

I believe that this part of the setup makes it disadvantageous for us to get a claim and then back out of the elimination.

Even if we are running up a muse, it may be disadvantageous for them to claim before death, because their pairing is not otherwise revealed, and can still be guessed incorrectly by mafia.

VOTE: Noraa

Here's a second one to help

Omigod, omigod, how did I miss this? I’m so dumb. Dunn is clearly tming Noraa!town with these posts.

~Nancyfly

[butterflies]

At the beginning of the game, the Mafia Goons are given a list of 5 town, including the 3 Merlins and 2 random Vanilla Townies. They will not know which is which. The Mafia cannot nightkill any of these 5 players on the first night.

For those of you who aren’t seeing what I am, scum gets a list of 5 townies that they can’t kill N1. Dunn’s opening post is about that a muse shouldn’t claim even if they get run up. They’re next post is an extremely scummy vote on Noraa.

Conclusion: Noraa is > than rand one of the 5 townies on the N1 no kill list.

~Nancyfly

[furtiveglance]

And those posts couldn't possibly be unrelated?

[butterflies]

And those posts couldn't possibly be unrelated?

It’s a very interesting perspective slip to have your first post involving running up a possible muse and in the next an extremely suspicious vote which is also a highly suspicious sheep.

Why are both you and Dunn so keen on pushing Noraa? Why is ze scum? And well at least your vote didn’t look that awful but you’re far more focused on defending Dunn than engaging mine and Umlaut’s townread on Noraa. Why is that?

~Nancyfly

[furtiveglance]

I engaged with people's townreads on Noraa in 176, explaining why I disagreed. As for Dunnstral, I'm only defending them because I think their vote on Noraa was probably RVS and I still can't see that they 'slipped'. Dunnstral might be mafia, I don't know. I have them as a null read and would like more reads from them.

[Gamma Emerald]

I’d call Dunn’s Noraa vote late-stage RVS at best

[butterflies]

i think dunn is scum. hard to say at this point since there's only one post.
if its true though, my dearest merlin friend, i'll do your job for you. fret not and be a nice little vt

@furtive, this was Noraa’s post BEFORE he voted zir. In what world do you get tunnel from this?

~Nancyfly

[butterflies]

i think dunn is scum. hard to say at this point since there's only one post.
if its true though, my dearest merlin friend, i'll do your job for you. fret not and be a nice little vt

@furtive, this was Noraa’s post BEFORE he voted zir. In what world do you get tunnel from this?

~Nancyfly

[Enchant]

i think dunn is scum. hard to say at this point since there's only one post.
if its true though, my dearest merlin friend, i'll do your job for you. fret not and be a nice little vt

@furtive, this was Noraa’s post BEFORE he voted zir. In what world do you get tunnel from this?

~Nancyfly

Who is zir? I can't see any player with this nick.

[butterflies]

i think dunn is scum. hard to say at this point since there's only one post.
if its true though, my dearest merlin friend, i'll do your job for you. fret not and be a nice little vt

@furtive, this was Noraa’s post BEFORE he voted zir. In what world do you get tunnel from this?

~Nancyfly

Who is zir? I can't see any player with this nick.

Noraa, it’s not a nick, it’s zir pronouns.

[Enchant]

i think dunn is scum. hard to say at this point since there's only one post.
if its true though, my dearest merlin friend, i'll do your job for you. fret not and be a nice little vt

@furtive, this was Noraa’s post BEFORE he voted zir. In what world do you get tunnel from this?

~Nancyfly

Who is zir? I can't see any player with this nick.

Noraa, it’s not a nick, it’s zir pronouns.

Okay now i look dumb

[numberQ]

Spoiler: Flowers

Judith Leyster,

Tulip from Her Tulip Book

(1643)

Vote Count (1.5)

butterflies

[0]

Dunnstral

[3]

Noraa, Titus, butterflies
Enchant

[0]

furtiveglance

[0]

Galron

[0]

Gamma Emerald

[0]

implosion

[0]

Noraa

[2]

furtiveglance, Dunnstral
ProgoWoshua

[3]

implosion, Gamma Emerald, Umlaut
Titus

[1]

Enchant
Umlaut

[1]

Galron

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to eliminate.

Not Voting:

ProgoWoshua

Deadline:

April 8th, 2022, 12:00 PM EST ((expired on 2022-04-08 12:00:00))

Galron has been prodded.

[butterflies]

The butterflea returns to read up <3 Long weekend was long.

[Flea The Magician]

butterflies: I townread butterflies. They seem to be actively trying to find mafia, and they explain their thought process behind each vote/suspicion well, which you don't always get here, not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. It's +town that they focus on scumreads rather than townreads. I think I will use this opportunity to answer their questions posed in 70 - thanks for the bone Flea! 1) Read down to find out my suspicions 2) Again, this post has the answers. 3) I haven't played with a hydra before. I now understand that ButterDrew is the same as NancyFly - please keep the names consistent. I haven't really discerned between the two of you - you haven't disagreed on anything yet. That is to say you are just as easy to read as each other because you have been one entity so far. The kind of things I use to scumhunt aren't really be determined by personality - I try not to look at tone or playstyle but rather game analysis/voting.

This is our first hydra together in fairness and anyone who has seen me in a hydra will tell you I usually sign with some variation of the character I'm RPing or Flea.

Oh and math has never been my strong suit.

5 players in 3 roles to guess. It's 1:60(5*4*3) possibilities without colours, it's something like 1:360 (5*3)*(4*2)*3 if I've brained this right currently.
One muse claimed with target makes that 1:12(4*3) without colours, 1:24(4*2)*3 with colours.
Muses absolutely should never claim in my opinon and should play smart.

Now my brain hurts. *grumble grumble*

Muses can use discretion

If it's somebody who won't get eliminated otherwise, sure, reveal, but keep in mind that there will probably only be 1 muse claiming a target this game. I do think it is disadvantageous for muses to always claim their target when being run up

And no they absolutely should not as the Block will know the Muses colour when revealed. We need to keep numbers high to keep scum chances low.

Butterflea and Momma bear, huddle around huddle around
Imagine ... we're in our lovely little hydra
and all of a sudden noraa is spamming
DUNN IS SCUM DUNN IS SCUM DUNN IS SCUM

right now i would say i am at 80% certainty that dunn is scum. the reason it isn't 90% is because this playerlist doesn't look like one that would let 100% of town dunn shine through on day 1.

I mean your read rate at the moment is definitely impressive....

Two pages have been added since I went to sleep. I don't think I 'peaced out' for more than about 15 hours. I'll make a few points here. Firstly, butterflies is scumreading both Progo and me for comments about strategy. This is inherently both redundant and pointless, because 1) all we said was that Muses should influence the game rather than leaving us 8v3 Mountainous (which is exactly what implosion said in 55, and 2) supposing I was mafia, or Progo was mafia (which they might well be), why would we make (according to butterflies) posts that aren't protown? I appreciate the attempts to solve, but this strategy talk is really NAI for me. I only read alignment into it when people aren't giving enough analysis. The TLDR on that one is scumreading players for strategy talk is not valid. Find new reasons to scumread me, because a scumcase based on my strategic Musings is very weak indeed.

I've also received some pushback for my scumread on Noraa. I don't give players +town for tunneling (as ze seem to be doing with Dunnstral). As I explained in my readslist, I don't see how Dunnstral could be anything more than Null with how little they've posted. Experienced scum know that poeple give towncredit for pushing. I think what is harder to do as mafia is give reads on the entire player list, which is what I'd like to see from zir. butterflies says in 174 that Noraa is obviously not getting eliminated today. Why not? and why does that make zir a 'safe vote'?

Nora is absolutely town and both heads here are in sync on that.
Experienced scum know their reads lists need to be convincing, in my case if you ask me for a reads list I tell you to dance naked under the full moons light.
Thing is inexperienced scum might tend to do "townie behaviours" and try to frame them appropriately.

I'm in full agreement with Nancy's findings and nothing more to add to what she's said so far beyond whats above. <3

ButterFlea is going to Flutterby and will be back later

[butterflies]

butterflies: I townread butterflies. They seem to be actively trying to find mafia, and they explain their thought process behind each vote/suspicion well, which you don't always get here, not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. It's +town that they focus on scumreads rather than townreads. I think I will use this opportunity to answer their questions posed in 70 - thanks for the bone Flea! 1) Read down to find out my suspicions 2) Again, this post has the answers. 3) I haven't played with a hydra before. I now understand that ButterDrew is the same as NancyFly - please keep the names consistent. I haven't really discerned between the two of you - you haven't disagreed on anything yet. That is to say you are just as easy to read as each other because you have been one entity so far. The kind of things I use to scumhunt aren't really be determined by personality - I try not to look at tone or playstyle but rather game analysis/voting.

This is our first hydra together in fairness and anyone who has seen me in a hydra will tell you I usually sign with some variation of the character I'm RPing or Flea.

Oh and math has never been my strong suit.

5 players in 3 roles to guess. It's 1:60(5*4*3) possibilities without colours, it's something like 1:360 (5*3)*(4*2)*3 if I've brained this right currently.
One muse claimed with target makes that 1:12(4*3) without colours, 1:24(4*2)*3 with colours.
Muses absolutely should never claim in my opinon and should play smart.

Now my brain hurts. *grumble grumble*

Muses can use discretion

If it's somebody who won't get eliminated otherwise, sure, reveal, but keep in mind that there will probably only be 1 muse claiming a target this game. I do think it is disadvantageous for muses to always claim their target when being run up

And no they absolutely should not as the Block will know the Muses colour when revealed. We need to keep numbers high to keep scum chances low.

Butterflea and Momma bear, huddle around huddle around
Imagine ... we're in our lovely little hydra
and all of a sudden noraa is spamming
DUNN IS SCUM DUNN IS SCUM DUNN IS SCUM

right now i would say i am at 80% certainty that dunn is scum. the reason it isn't 90% is because this playerlist doesn't look like one that would let 100% of town dunn shine through on day 1.

I mean your read rate at the moment is definitely impressive....

Two pages have been added since I went to sleep. I don't think I 'peaced out' for more than about 15 hours. I'll make a few points here. Firstly, butterflies is scumreading both Progo and me for comments about strategy. This is inherently both redundant and pointless, because 1) all we said was that Muses should influence the game rather than leaving us 8v3 Mountainous (which is exactly what implosion said in 55, and 2) supposing I was mafia, or Progo was mafia (which they might well be), why would we make (according to butterflies) posts that aren't protown? I appreciate the attempts to solve, but this strategy talk is really NAI for me. I only read alignment into it when people aren't giving enough analysis. The TLDR on that one is scumreading players for strategy talk is not valid. Find new reasons to scumread me, because a scumcase based on my strategic Musings is very weak indeed.

I've also received some pushback for my scumread on Noraa. I don't give players +town for tunneling (as ze seem to be doing with Dunnstral). As I explained in my readslist, I don't see how Dunnstral could be anything more than Null with how little they've posted. Experienced scum know that poeple give towncredit for pushing. I think what is harder to do as mafia is give reads on the entire player list, which is what I'd like to see from zir. butterflies says in 174 that Noraa is obviously not getting eliminated today. Why not? and why does that make zir a 'safe vote'?

Nora is absolutely town and both heads here are in sync on that.
Experienced scum know their reads lists need to be convincing, in my case if you ask me for a reads list I tell you to dance naked under the full moons light.
Thing is inexperienced scum might tend to do "townie behaviours" and try to frame them appropriately.

I'm in full agreement with Nancy's findings and nothing more to add to what she's said so far beyond whats above. <3

ButterFlea is going to Flutterby and will be back later

*sigh*

[Noraa]

Why am I supposed to be reevaluating my read?

Why am I scum? Like I feel like we're just getting a replay of Control here where you are scumreading me for no reason and refusing to give me a reason. If you are town, that is precisely the reason i am misreading you.

I'm having a damn hard time seeing town Dunn pounce on me like this because town Dunn knows my confidence and reads are their own little thing. Town Dunn knows I don't make sense and would be hesitant to label me scum right off the bat.

[Noraa]

I've also received some pushback for my scumread on Noraa. I don't give players +town for tunneling (as ze seem to be doing with Dunnstral). As I explained in my readslist, I don't see how Dunnstral could be anything more than Null with how little they've posted. Experienced scum know that poeple give towncredit for pushing. I think what is harder to do as mafia is give reads on the entire player list, which is what I'd like to see from zir.

I mean when I have consistently been the one person in multiple games reading dunnstral correctly when everyone disagreed with me, I think it says something about my confidence. Not to mention I have admitted that I am not 100% on Dunn time and time again. I can catch dunn in 1 post if that post is bad or good enough.

I'm determined to get a read on dunn before doing anything else. Sorry <3

[Noraa]

As for Dunnstral, I'm only defending them because I think their vote on Noraa was probably RVS

can i get a pass for my "RVS read" on you too

[Titus]

Noting the vc

[Umlaut]

I don't like that Progo has done no analysis since furtiveglance pointed out that he's given almost no analysis. He's made a couple posts today but neither of them has any real substance.

This sounds like what happens to me as scum when I feel "locked into" playing a certain way once someone has pointed it out; usually because I've been genuinely busy or just distracted for a few days but once someone explicitly says "wow Umlaut is doing nothing" I become afraid that if I start doing something I'll be called out for changing my behavior in response to reads.

[Umlaut]

Noting the vc

What about it?

[Umlaut]

At the beginning of the game, the Mafia Goons are given a list of 5 town, including the 3 Merlins and 2 random Vanilla Townies. They will not know which is which. The Mafia cannot nightkill any of these 5 players on the first night.

For those of you who aren’t seeing what I am, scum gets a list of 5 townies that they can’t kill N1. Dunn’s opening post is about that a muse shouldn’t claim even if they get run up. They’re next post is an extremely scummy vote on Noraa.

Conclusion: Noraa is > than rand one of the 5 townies on the N1 no kill list.

~Nancyfly

This feels premature without a Dunn flip, and possibly circular if you are using it to support a case that Dunn is scum.