Umlaut's Mini Normal Review, March 2022

[Umlaut]

(Actually I guess Traitor-Enabler isn't a

hard

hard guilty but it would be a very weird role to give to town)

[mastina]

Setup in 16 definitely feels scumsided to me, and I think that the best options would either be gating the roleblocker or adding more to the JOAT.
I'd actually add not one role, but two, to the JOAT; my recommendations would be 2/3 of {Voyeur, Commuter, Investigative-role-e.g.-gunsmith/rolecop/etc}.

[Umlaut]

Do you think Hider and Commuter are too samey in effect for the same JoAT? I could do Rolecop, Follower, Commuter, and something in a different category from those like Rolestopper. (But can just do Voyeur if you think three different investigative shots isn't excessive)

[mastina]

Do you think Hider and Commuter are too samey in effect for the same JoAT?

I mean, in a sense, yes; they both serve to protect the JOAT at the cost of the JOAT not using an investigative action. I, personally, have no issue with a JOAT having two investigatives and two self-protect actions since they can't be used on the same night meaning that it takes skill to guess when the best times to use which are, and how to use them.

I also personally don't think three investigatives on a JOAT is excessive, but,
1: It's your setup so it's largely your preference, and,
2: Datisi is the primary so it's mostly Datisi's call

[Datisi]

i don't have an issue with either 2 investigatives + 2 protective shots, or 3 investigatives + something else for the joat. so depends on which one would you prefer, umlaut.

[Umlaut]

I'd actually prefer Rolecop+Follower+Rolestopper+Commuter if that is acceptable (neither of you commented on Rolestopper as a suggestion here). If that gets vetoed I'll do Rolecop+Follower+Hider+Commuter.

[Datisi]

1x mafia roleblocker
1x mafia traitor-enabler bodyguard
1x mafia informed traitor (knows there's 4 tprs, one of which is a detective)

1x town detective
1x town joat (rolecop, follower, rolestopper, commuter)
1x town combined doctor checker
1x town non-consecutive night vigilante
6x vt

this? rolestopper also seems fine to me to add into the joat here. unless mastina sees anything that's wrong with this setup, i'd pass it.

[Umlaut]

That's the one. I'll start writing updated role PMs in a bit.

[mastina]

I think that's fine.

[Umlaut]

Reproducing all role/result PMs here, not just the changed ones, for easier review in one place. Note Mafia will be informed of the Traitor's existence within their private topic; I find this more convenient since I don't have to find a good way to redact it from the PM on flip.

Spoiler: Role PMs

Mafia Roleblocker

Welcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a

Mafia Roleblocker

.

You and your teammate(s) share a private topic in which you can talk during all phases of the game, as long as you are alive.

Each night you and your teammate(s) may together choose one living player to shoot and kill. You must specify which of you carries out the shot.

Each night you may choose one living player to

roleblock

, preventing that player from taking any action during the night.

You win when the Mafia is the sole surviving faction, or when nothing can prevent this.

Mafia Traitor-Enabler Bodyguard

Welcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a

Mafia Traitor-Enabler Bodyguard

.

You and your teammate(s) share a private topic in which you can talk during all phases of the game, as long as you are alive.

Each night you and your teammate(s) may together choose one living player to shoot and kill. You must specify which of you carries out the shot.

Traitors will lose their Traitor-specific abilities once you have died.

(This means they will become ordinary members of the Mafia.)

Each night you may choose one living player to

guard

, preventing that player from one kill attempt during the night. If you stop a kill in this manner, you will die instead.

You win when the Mafia is the sole surviving faction, or when nothing can prevent this.

Mafia Informed Traitor

Welcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a

Mafia Informed Traitor

.

You know the Mafia are [REDACTED]; however, you have no access to their private topic or factional kill, and you will be endgamed and lose the game when all other Mafia are dead.

You have the following additional information:

There are four non-vanilla Town players in the setup, one of which is a Detective.

You win when the Mafia is the sole surviving faction, or when nothing can prevent this.

Town Detective

Welcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a

Town Detective

.

Each night you may

investigate

one player, to learn whether that player has carried out a killing action on this or any previous night.

You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

Town Jack-of-All-Trades

Welcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a

Town Jack-of-All-Trades

, with the following abilities.

• 1-Shot Rolecop:
  On one night of your choice you may
  investigate
  another player to learn their role (but not alignment).
  
• 1-Shot Follower:
  On one night of your choice you may
  follow
  another player to learn what if any type(s) of action that player takes during the night.
  
• 1-Shot Rolestopper:
  On one night of your choice you may
  rolestop
  another player to prevent all actions targeting that player.
  
• 1-Shot Commuter:
  On one night of your choice you may
  commute
  , leaving town for the night and making it impossible to take any action on another player, or to have any actions taken on you.

You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

Town Combined Doctor Checker

Welcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a

Town Combined Doctor Checker

.

Each night, you may choose another player to take

both

of the following actions:

• heal
  that player, protecting them from one kill attempt during the night; and
  
• check
  that player, and be informed whether the check was successful.
  (The check has no other effect.)

You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

Town Non-Consecutive Night Vigilante

Welcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a

Town Non-Consecutive Night Vigilante

.

Each night, provided you have not done so the previous night, you may choose another player to

shoot

and kill.

You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

Townie

Welcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a

Townie

.

You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

Spoiler: Result PMs

Detective Positive

Your investigation was

positive

: {PLAYER} has killed or attempted to kill.

Detective Negative

Your investigation was

negative

: {PLAYER} has neither killed nor attempted to kill.

Detective No Result

You failed to investigate {PLAYER}.

Rolecop Positive

You learned that {PLAYER} is a {ROLE}.

Rolecop Negative

You learned that {PLAYER} has no special role.

Rolecop No Result

You failed to investigate {PLAYER}.

Follower Positive

You learned that {PLAYER} took a {TYPE} action during the night.

Follower Double-Positive

You learned that {PLAYER} took a {TYPE1} action and a {TYPE2} action during the night.

Follower Negative

You learned that {PLAYER} took no action during the night.

Follower No Result

You failed to follow {PLAYER}.

Checker Result

You checked {PLAYER}.

Checker No Result

You failed to check {PLAYER}.

Are we good to go?

[mastina]

I have a few issues with the role/result PMs, I'll explain why once home.

[Umlaut]

Bump

[mastina]

I have a few issues with the role/result PMs, I'll explain why once home.

Took me an extra 20 hours or so, but can do so now:

Town Jack-of-All-Trades

Welcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a

Town Jack-of-All-Trades

, with the following abilities.

• 1-Shot Rolecop:
  On one night of your choice you may
  investigate
  another player to learn their role (but not alignment).
  
• 1-Shot Follower:
  On one night of your choice you may
  follow
  another player to learn what if any type(s) of action that player takes during the night.
  
• 1-Shot Rolestopper:
  On one night of your choice you may
  rolestop
  another player to prevent all actions targeting that player.
  
• 1-Shot Commuter:
  On one night of your choice you may
  commute
  , leaving town for the night and making it impossible to take any action on another player, or to have any actions taken on you.

You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

This works, but it would be best to specify that the JOAT can only use one ability per night.

Town Combined Doctor Checker

Welcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a

Town Combined Doctor Checker

.

Each night, you may choose another player to take

both

of the following actions:

• heal
  that player, protecting them from one kill attempt during the night; and
  
• check
  that player, and be informed whether the check was successful.
  (The check has no other effect.)

You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

Here, the wording "you may choose another player to take

both

of the following actions" implies that the targeted player will suddenly be

doing

both rather than being the

target

of both. It needs a slight wording tweak, like "Each night, you may choose another player and you will take

both

of the following actions on them", to convey the appropriate meaning.

Detective No Result

You failed to investigate {PLAYER}.

Rolecop No Result

You failed to investigate {PLAYER}.

Follower No Result

You failed to follow {PLAYER}.

I would add "and receive No Result" to this to make it clear that "failed to investigate" = No Result. (Never underestimate players' ability to assume a message from the mod means something else, as without specifying No Result, it's possible they would think that the PM is due to their submitted action having been rejected or something like that.

Rolecop Negative

You learned that {PLAYER} has no special role.

This however is not a correct result for a Rolecop and is mandatory to change; Vanillas/Goons show up as "Vanilla" to the rolecop, not as 'no special role'. (The two might pragmatically mean the same thing but for a role that has a very specific ruleset, you need to follow the rules for the role.)

The rest is good to my eye tho.

[Umlaut]

I have used exactly that wording for no-result PMs without issue in all my past Normal games (in general I have a preference for minimizing use of "mechanical" terms like No Result, where possible) but I will change it if that is important to you.

Somewhat surprised at "no special role" being unacceptable wording but okay.

Spoiler: Updated Role PMs

Town Jack-of-All-Trades

Welcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a

Town Jack-of-All-Trades

, with the following abilities, of which you may use at most one per night:

• 1-Shot Rolecop:
  On one night of your choice you may
  investigate
  another player to learn their role (but not alignment).
  
• 1-Shot Follower:
  On one night of your choice you may
  follow
  another player to learn what if any type(s) of action that player takes during the night.
  
• 1-Shot Rolestopper:
  On one night of your choice you may
  rolestop
  another player to prevent all actions targeting that player.
  
• 1-Shot Commuter:
  On one night of your choice you may
  commute
  , leaving town for the night and making it impossible to take any action on another player, or to have any actions taken on you.

You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

Town Combined Doctor Checker

Welcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a

Town Combined Doctor Checker

.

Each night, you may choose another player and take

both

of the following actions upon them:

• heal
  that player, protecting them from one kill attempt during the night; and
  
• check
  that player, and be informed whether the check was successful.
  (The check has no other effect.)

You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

Spoiler: Updated Result PMs

Detective No Result

Your attempt to investigate {PLAYER} had no result.

Rolecop No Result

Your attempt to investigate {PLAYER} had no result.

Follower No Result

Your attempt to follow {PLAYER} had no result.

Rolecop "Negative" (Vanilla)

You learned that {PLAYER} is Vanilla.

I'd also like to verify that the list of "types of action" for purposes of Follower results is the list on the wiki page Natural_Action_Resolution/Normal_Game, so e.g. following the Combined Doctor Checker returns "a protective action and a miscellaneous action" and nothing more specific than that.

[mastina]

I'd also like to verify that the list of "types of action" for purposes of Follower results is the list on the wiki page Natural_Action_Resolution/Normal_Game, so e.g. following the Combined Doctor Checker returns "a protective action and a miscellaneous action" and nothing more specific than that.

That's correct.

I've nothing more that I can think of.

[Datisi]

we're keeping mafia multitasking being on by default, right? if so, i would specify in the mafia role pm's that they can both take their action and perform the factional kill in the same night, since i feel like people often overlook the setup-specific rules, and having multitasking is not the default.

everything else looks fine to me.

[Umlaut]

Would it suffice to mention multitasking explicitly in the first post of the Mafia PT? I prefer to keep role PMs as close to identical as possible across my games.

If that doesn't suffice then I will go ahead and add "helper text"

(Since this setup has default multitasking enabled, you may use this action even if you are committing the factional kill.)

after the role-specific active ability text for each of the Mafia Roleblocker and Mafia Traitor-Enabler Bodyguard.

Can I consider this passed?

[Datisi]

mentioning multitasking in the first post of the mafia pt is fine.

/pass