Open 848: Chromavalon: A Bouquet of Colors [Game Over]

[implosion]

Spicy.

I want to contribute something but my reads haven't really changed. The one thing I have noticed is implosion giving more analysis recently - why is Galron now a scumread to you more than before? I think they just dipped from the game.

They weren't really strongly, I thought some of their later posting was mildly scummy and I figured scum were decently likely to lurk in the setup/gamestate. Mostly I just felt like they were being PoEd out too early.

furtive's blue thing is, like, in no universe a scumslip. Blue is also used for town (or it used to be) on Epicmafia, I don't think it's especially uncommon, and beyond that it's clear that furtive was talking about the case where Enchant flips town:

if Enchant happens to flip blue then it's on them for the hammer.

I.e. if they're town and they die, it's on them. This sentence doesn't make any sense if furtive is talking about Enchant flipping blue scum. Even if Enchant is blue scum I really doubt scum would even use the phrase "flipping [color of scum]" in a perspective slip.

Now. With all that said, I am actually sold on furtive scum now. It's perfectly reasonable to care about how you look in a game of mafia, but basically all of furtive's recent posts except 686 (which was a random question to Italiano) have been them playing defense - no comment on what they think about butterfly's alignment for pushing this wrong scumslip, no comment on Italiano's for following it, no comment on fireisredsir for defending them from it. That just reads like scum who is caught up defending themselves from being caught for the wrong reason, rather than town who has a genuine interest in solving the game. If I'm town and I see a wrong scumslip being used to push me, yes I'm going to defend myself but I'm also going to use it as a jumping off point to push others. furtive doesn't seem to have a vested interest in solving the game, and I think this also fits in with what I was saying earlier about their giving walls of reads and then not really doing analysis after that.

I guess lots of other people already have this conclusion already so whatever. but, etc.

[implosion]

I do think Italiano's jump is... suspicious in isolation. If furtive flips town it'll be suspicious, if furtive flips scum then it'd be kind of a strange thing to do as a scumbuddy in this kind of game. I guess maybe the motivation would be as scum who hasn't figured out who their merlin is yet to try to suss them out, but it seems like a weird thing for scum to do nonetheless. And vice versa if we flip italiano before furtive.

Curious what fire thinks about that as an associative.

[butterflies]

In that case fire, I can't help you. If you can work out why furtive is voting enchant who is now a townread in a game where furtive has by their own admission said they're being particular with their vote and need to listen to their townreads, then let me know.

You do not vote your TRs with that long left on the timer.
You do not sit there happily with the game going stagnant with over a week left and your vote parked on a TR.
Furtive has TMI'd Enchant as blue.
Enchant has pretty much confirmed they are blue.

I will not drop this as Furtive has perspective slipped earlier.

Hi everyone, I'll read through, give my thoughts on players, and vote tonight when I get home. As for the strategy talk, I read a previous game of this setup and town actually lost the main game, and the mafia wouldn't have guessed the Merlins correctly. Therefore we might have slightly more wiggle room in terms of Muses influencing the game or even claiming outright than you might expect. The main thing is to ensure we at least win the main game.

There is only one game for town. scum have 2 games, one to solve Muses, the other to elim all town. Both me and Nancy spotted this post as questionable. I threw a bone at the time, but nah. Too many slips and too much evidence at this point.

We yeet either furtive or enchant tbh, cause the other gets yeet tomorrow.
and yes, I am threatening the Tunnel'o'flea.

-Butterflea.

Enchant has never been a townread of mine. That was your own invention. Anyone who has read my posts should know this. As for my comment about the 'main game', I'm just conscious that mafia have a secondary win con - which they weren't close to completing in a previous game when town lost outright, so town has slightly more leeway regarding Muses than people might think. So both of these points are redundant. If you think my posts are otherwise 'fake' I can't really help you, that's just a matter of opinion.

Thats actually fair... you wouldn't want to TR your deepwolf ticket.

you keep saying your conscious of stuff, and being self self-conscious.
You realise that's a scumtrait, right?

Town dgaf how they look. I rarely do. I say it how I see it. Admittedly I cock up like I did on your Enchant TR, my bad, I retract that.
Thing is as far as I'm concerned, you and Enchant confirmed Enchant as the Blue Block.

Cause I looked at your other games too, as well as stayed on mafia.gg for a little bit.

People don't mention colours much in the games I've observed there. For rapid fire games they actually say roles/abbrevs for the roles.

And you've never said blue as an alignment in the time you've been here. For that matter you've never used Red or Green either.

-Butterflea

I do 'gaf' about how I look. I think it's my duty as town to 1) be towny and 2) scumread mafia. As for the Blue thing, it's a turn of phrase which is very common on mafia.gg. People either flip blue or flip red

Its also your duty as mafia to be towny - probably more so if we're honest - and 2 is always good for a deepwolf strat.
Townies shouldn't care that much. Self conscious town make scumtells. Because they go back and edit and restack their posts and you get a very weird and very amusing scumtell.
(The reason it's amusing is because its a tell I make as town and scum just because my brain is whack)

you forgot 3 though, HUNT the mafia and make them howl. Which you haven't been doing at all. You've been trying to flatten the conversation instead of encourage it imo

I observed 3 games on mafia.gg - I didn't see it. Maybe I got unlucky. Either way, your meta here is whats now being used against you.
Thats still the first time you've said it on this site, knowing we use green and having used green in other games - and never blue or red.

Implo I love you. <3

-Butterflea

[butterflies]

ok thats why I didn't think it was a slip. didn't want to give him the answer just in case, but... i think it's pretty clear that's what it meant. doesn't mean your other reasons for suspecting are invalid, but i think that one is

Italiano p sus for jumping on that though

So you're buying the bad cover up story?

Town = Blue.
Enchant = flipping blue.
Furtive = VOTING ENCHANT.

The logic does not follow.

-Butterflea.

+1

~Nancyfly

[fireisredsir]

I do think Italiano's jump is... suspicious in isolation. If furtive flips town it'll be suspicious, if furtive flips scum then it'd be kind of a strange thing to do as a scumbuddy in this kind of game. I guess maybe the motivation would be as scum who hasn't figured out who their merlin is yet to try to suss them out, but it seems like a weird thing for scum to do nonetheless. And vice versa if we flip italiano before furtive.

Curious what fire thinks about that as an associative.

ive been thinking about that. if it is scum italiano sheeping town butterflies to lim scum furtive, there is a lot to gain there for italiano's slot. butterflies immediately townread him for sheeping them, and that townread would probably stick pretty firmly if furtive does flip scum. if the 3rd scum is not enchant/umlaut, then you also get a free mislim or two out of it, because furtive flipping scum would prob solidify in butterflies' minds that their solve is correct. and one more mislim sends us to elo

[butterflies]

enchant/Umlaut/furtive

Remember this when we die.


~Nancyfly

I actually agree with Enchant and Umlaut both being scummy. I think Enchant is the best vote today.

I can't see Enchant/Umlaut together though

. Obviously bussing exists, I just can't see why scum would do it in this setup, in which Town has a lot of information. Mafia scumreading teammates and townreading town seems like very bad strategy. I admit to not having a complete team in the same way that you do, but I think a more realistic solve is Enchant/Titus if scum!Enchant and Umlaut/implosion if town!Enchant. Galron could be scum in either case but I'm not sure on them yet.

Good catch Flea, another post why Umlaut is in my PoE. Second post where you have Enchant not alligned with Umlaut. Yeah, we’re totally hallucinating all of this.

Why wouldn’t scum bus for towncred in this setup? Scum has 2 possible wincons and none of them require the entire scumteam to endgame.

~Nancyfly

[butterflies]

Oop caught myself again....

Malcolm: Laughed at TTT's unfunny joke in 23. No offence TTT but it wasn't. Since then has grown into the game by snapping at the heels of O. In 104 they explain (unprompted) why they are town in Luke's eyes. Many unnecessary posts, and could be deemed guilty of tunneling O.

If O flips green,

would be in contention to get my vote. That said, for now it's a Townlean.

Hey thats in your first game on site too <3

We dont need another heeee-roooooooo.....

-Butterflea

Flea is on fire now. All bow to the amazing butterflea. <3

~Nancyfly

[butterflies]

Spoiler:

I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not mafia. I'll be impressed if you're right about Enchant/Umlaut, but I would warn against relying on meta too much. That's how we quickhammered town yesterday, because of a 'meta read'.

enchant/Umlaut/furtive

Remember this when we die.


~Nancyfly

I actually agree with Enchant and Umlaut both being scummy. I think Enchant is the best vote today. I can't see Enchant/Umlaut together though. Obviously bussing exists, I just can't see why scum would do it in this setup, in which Town has a lot of information. Mafia scumreading teammates and townreading town seems like very bad strategy. I admit to not having a complete team in the same way that you do, but I think a more realistic solve is Enchant/Titus if scum!Enchant and Umlaut/implosion if town!Enchant. Galron could be scum in either case but I'm not sure on them yet.

In that case fire, I can't help you. If you can work out why furtive is voting enchant who is now a townread in a game where furtive has by their own admission said they're being particular with their vote and need to listen to their townreads, then let me know.

You do not vote your TRs with that long left on the timer.
You do not sit there happily with the game going stagnant with over a week left and your vote parked on a TR.
Furtive has TMI'd Enchant as blue.
Enchant has pretty much confirmed they are blue.

I will not drop this as Furtive has perspective slipped earlier.

Hi everyone, I'll read through, give my thoughts on players, and vote tonight when I get home. As for the strategy talk, I read a previous game of this setup and town actually lost the main game, and the mafia wouldn't have guessed the Merlins correctly. Therefore we might have slightly more wiggle room in terms of Muses influencing the game or even claiming outright than you might expect. The main thing is to ensure we at least win the main game.

There is only one game for town. scum have 2 games, one to solve Muses, the other to elim all town. Both me and Nancy spotted this post as questionable. I threw a bone at the time, but nah. Too many slips and too much evidence at this point.

We yeet either furtive or enchant tbh, cause the other gets yeet tomorrow.
and yes, I am threatening the Tunnel'o'flea.

-Butterflea.

Enchant has never been a townread of mine. That was your own invention. Anyone who has read my posts should know this. As for my comment about the 'main game', I'm just conscious that mafia have a secondary win con - which they weren't close to completing in a previous game when town lost outright, so town has slightly more leeway regarding Muses than people might think. So both of these points are redundant. If you think my posts are otherwise 'fake' I can't really help you, that's just a matter of opinion.

Thats actually fair... you wouldn't want to TR your deepwolf ticket.

you keep saying your conscious of stuff, and being self self-conscious.
You realise that's a scumtrait, right?

Town dgaf how they look. I rarely do. I say it how I see it. Admittedly I cock up like I did on your Enchant TR, my bad, I retract that.
Thing is as far as I'm concerned, you and Enchant confirmed Enchant as the Blue Block.

Cause I looked at your other games too, as well as stayed on mafia.gg for a little bit.

People don't mention colours much in the games I've observed there. For rapid fire games they actually say roles/abbrevs for the roles.

And you've never said blue as an alignment in the time you've been here. For that matter you've never used Red or Green either.

-Butterflea

I do 'gaf' about how I look. I think it's my duty as town to 1) be towny and 2) scumread mafia. As for the Blue thing, it's a turn of phrase which is very common on mafia.gg. People either flip blue or flip red

Since when? Since before or after you tried to bribe us into tr you with a locktown read on us?

~Nancyfly

[butterflies]

I do think Italiano's jump is... suspicious in isolation. If furtive flips town it'll be suspicious, if furtive flips scum then it'd be kind of a strange thing to do as a scumbuddy in this kind of game. I guess maybe the motivation would be as scum who hasn't figured out who their merlin is yet to try to suss them out, but it seems like a weird thing for scum to do nonetheless. And vice versa if we flip italiano before furtive.

Curious what fire thinks about that as an associative.

ive been thinking about that. if it is scum italiano sheeping town butterflies to lim scum furtive, there is a lot to gain there for italiano's slot. butterflies immediately townread him for sheeping them, and that townread would probably stick pretty firmly if furtive does flip scum. if the 3rd scum is not enchant/umlaut, then you also get a free mislim or two out of it, because furtive flipping scum would prob solidify in butterflies' minds that their solve is correct. and one more mislim sends us to elo

You’re right, I did make the initial leap because he sheeped me on furtive. However, He played very similarly in me vs Titus too and I miselimed him in that game. I also think that scumteam prefers to bus Enchant > furtive, so yeah, I am looking favourably on furtive voters.

I don’t understand why you and Implosion are suss on Italiano though? Especially when compared with furtive, Enchant and even Umlaut?

~Nancyfly

[fireisredsir]

i have been sus of galron since forever, and italiano's entrance seemed very sus to me as well

ill probably end up voting furtive or enchant since i don't think the lim will go on italiano, but mostly im just considering what other possibilities exist besides your main solve

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, Galron didn't say much. You said you had been following the game - what are your reads so far?

Today I’m sheeping. Tomorrow I’ll give reads and all that.

i don't think that's enough

Trust me, it’ll be plenty. Once my gears get churning you won’t be able to stop me. I’m kinda just chilling at the moment taking everything in. Depending on what it is you can ask me something specific about the game and I’ll see if it’s something I’m comfortable answering.

[Noraa]

What’d I miss?

ITALIANOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I have missed playing with you!!!

[implosion]

I prefer both Enchant and furtive over italiano. I think italiano needs more scrutiny particularly if furtive flips town; if furtive flips scum then -shrug- but I mean, I still intend to judge him on his play. I probably prefer Enchant over furtive today in the event that Italiano winds up being scummy tomorrow (and well, I think Enchant-scum is less likely to be wrong than furtive-scum) in which case I'd consider him before furtive situationally. I'm lukewarm on Umlaut at this point. I guess if I'm right on all of butterflies/noraa/fire/Titus being town and furtive/italiano isn't SvS then umlaut would be PoE scum. I don't feel confident enough in those 4 being all town to make any wild declarations though.

[butterflies]

I prefer both Enchant and furtive over italiano. I think italiano needs more scrutiny particularly if furtive flips town; if furtive flips scum then -shrug- but I mean, I still intend to judge him on his play. I probably prefer Enchant over furtive today in the event that Italiano winds up being scummy tomorrow (and well, I think Enchant-scum is less likely to be wrong than furtive-scum) in which case I'd consider him before furtive situationally. I'm lukewarm on Umlaut at this point. I guess if I'm right on all of butterflies/noraa/fire/Titus being town and furtive/italiano isn't SvS then umlaut would be PoE scum. I don't feel confident enough in those 4 being all town to make any wild declarations though.

If you’re of the opinion, which I’m obviously in agreement of that Italiano and furtive can’t be buddies then wouldn’t a furtive scum flip clear Italiano?

But both heads firmly believe that both furtive and Umlaut want to bus Enchant and I’m not interested in helping scum, particularly when I feel furtive has the most scum equity and Flea and I have already made our case on why we prefer furtive. If the rest of the playerlist prefers Enchant, I won’t oppose it (or Umlaut but don’t see that happening until probably d4 at rhe earliest) but both of us prefer furtive > Enchant today.

~Nancyfly

[implosion]

I'm not gonna say clear but it'd be evidence that he's town, yes.

in the off chance Enchant flips town, I'd rather know that now than later; if we think scum are bussing I don't see why not to help them. I likewise won't overly object if most people prefer furtive over Enchant though.

[butterflies]

I'm not gonna say clear but it'd be evidence that he's town, yes.

in the off chance Enchant flips town, I'd rather know that now than later; if we think scum are bussing I don't see why not to help them. I likewise won't overly object if most people prefer furtive over Enchant though.

Because I think that furtive and Umlaut want to get towncred from Enchant flip and if my PoE is correct. which I strongly believe it is, it’s better to lim the bussers > the bussie first but of that PoE, Umlaut is currently in the best position, so I’m hoping that should furtive and Enchant both flip scum like I believe they will, I’m hoping that once we’re dead, Umlaut doesn’t get to skate and that’s another reason for preferring furtive first, because he has pushed both Titus and I think you? as an Enchant buddy > Umlaut, where as besides my Enchant scum meta on how he treats a buddy, no one is unfortunately really putting too much stock in that. I guess as long as in some order, furtive and Enchant are the next 2 lims, hopefully Umlaut doesn’t skate.

~Nancyfly

[Enchant]

VOTE: butterflies

butter not voting me, because me flipping town ruins whole plan. It's in t...HYDRA interest to keep me alive and elim my SCUMBUDDIES instead, because if they flip town, simple "Oh well, now lim Enchant i think for sure" quarantee mafia win, unless muse intervene, and they somehow suck in this game.

[butterflies]

VOTE: butterflies

butter not voting me, because me flipping town ruins whole plan. It's in t...HYDRA interest to keep me alive and elim my SCUMBUDDIES instead, because if they flip town, simple "Oh well, now lim Enchant i think for sure" quarantee mafia win, unless muse intervene, and they somehow suck in this game.

Thing is I am going to push your chain either way. You're both blocks, and I see no world in existence currently where either of you flip town.

The other thing is enchant, I know you don't respond to pressure these days. I know you're also happy to be the fall guy for a deepwolf setup.

Furtive may be a site newbie, but ain't a FM newbie. None of these slips are being allowed to slide past me and the response to the pressure has been most satisfying to see.

The other thing is Enchant, if muses step up to redirect now they're going to out. Thats twice you've been muse baiting.
As it stands the odds are something like 1-in-360 of the scum team guessing correctly. and the muses absolutely should not out until it becomes vital - that is - YOLO.

-Butterflea

[Enchant]

If we lim furtive and he flips town, if muse doesh't intervene, it's borderline throwing, because otherwise i will be lemoned and that's game over.

[butterflies]

If we lim furtive and he flips town, if muse doesh't intervene, it's borderline throwing, because otherwise i will be lemoned and that's game over.

You just lolhammered town with several days left on D1 so careful who you accuse of bordering throwing.

See I know you're flipping scum, and honestly with Furtives slips that's confirmed the pair of you.
I don't care which of you goes today personally, what I do know is I think I can crush Furtive into spewing the last teammate.

Unless you want to the do honours oh blue block.

-Time for you to ButterFlee

[Enchant]

If we lim furtive and he flips town, if muse doesh't intervene, it's borderline throwing, because otherwise i will be lemoned and that's game over.

You just lolhammered town with several days left on D1 so careful who you accuse of bordering throwing.

See I know you're flipping scum, and honestly with Furtives slips that's confirmed the pair of you.
I don't care which of you goes today personally, what I do know is I think I can crush Furtive into spewing the last teammate.

Unless you want to the do honours oh blue block.

-Time for you to ButterFlee

I hammered without intent to ruin town, it's not throwing.

Keeping silence when you know townie is wagoned on elo is throwing.

Also, stop bunnyhopping with minds, you are only fine with furtive 5 min ago, but after i called you out now you "don't care".

[butterflies]

If we lim furtive and he flips town, if muse doesh't intervene, it's borderline throwing, because otherwise i will be lemoned and that's game over.

You just lolhammered town with several days left on D1 so careful who you accuse of bordering throwing.

See I know you're flipping scum, and honestly with Furtives slips that's confirmed the pair of you.
I don't care which of you goes today personally, what I do know is I think I can crush Furtive into spewing the last teammate.

Unless you want to the do honours oh blue block.

-Time for you to ButterFlee

I hammered without intent to ruin town, it's not throwing.

Keeping silence when you know townie is wagoned on elo is throwing.

Also, stop bunnyhopping with minds, you are only fine with furtive 5 min ago, but after i called you out now you "don't care".

I have a very strong preference for Furtive, given the slips.
Frankly you're both scum so as long as its one of you, town is winning.
You're also telling one of the most chaotic and unstable players with nuts levels of ADHD to the point my brain multi-track drifts across a 4 line mainline to stop bunny hopping.

You're both scum.
Eliminating you earlier stops wiggle room and you know denying town talk time is anti-town.
You keep asking for the muses to out, you know they won't. When i'm on the ball my mech is damned good and muses should. not. out.

You're asking for a line and not getting it. because you know you're todays limbait, because you're the usual LHF from your playstyle you adopted.

oh and one more thing.

Keeping silence when you know townie is wagoned on elo is throwing.

Next day is elo.

Hi.

-Butterflea took in sunlight...

[Enchant]

Taking words out of context is demagogy.

[butterflies]

There was an implication today is elo, as we are talking about today.

That you talk so little and with so little context means you're free to provide any context you need as and when you need it.

So when you do give contradictory messages, such as accusing muses of borderline game throwing by not coming to save you when a townie is being wagoned in elo.

You're not only then saying you know both you and furtive are town - which as scum you have to say and gives a further insight into your informed perspective further confirming the connection you both have - you're trying to adjust context and tap into "townie panic" which I know you've done before.

Nice use of a big word btw. Now you're going for the undermine by saying I'm not following a logical attack route and taking a mass appeal route.

Thing is social mechanics don't follow logic, and I've presented my case, and continued to apply pressure to the slots I believe are scum.

Almost like thats how to play this game.

So either me and Nancy are powerwolfing, or we're town.
So we're a powerwolfing hydra... with no read dissonance. We're also too consistent in what we're saying individually and I've openly retracted several things I've said that were wrong. I've even admitted various weak points in my case on you both.

This is a hell of a powerwolf, don't ya think.

Especially from a hydra.

As for social logic...
Should I ask you for your name you would be wise not to give it - as then I have your name, and you no longer do.
Perfectly sound logic to some, not to others.

The less context given, the more power to the "hostile" party.

Everything I've stated has been solid contextually, with no room for misinterpretation.
Everything you've said? You can't fool a trickster. I know your tricks; and I know how to see through them.

-Butterflea used Solar Beam

[butterflies]

If we lim furtive and he flips town, if muse doesh't intervene, it's borderline throwing, because otherwise i will be lemoned and that's game over.

If we lim furtive and he flips town, if muse doesh't intervene, it's borderline throwing, because otherwise i will be lemoned and that's game over.

You just lolhammered town with several days left on D1 so careful who you accuse of bordering throwing.

See I know you're flipping scum, and honestly with Furtives slips that's confirmed the pair of you.
I don't care which of you goes today personally, what I do know is I think I can crush Furtive into spewing the last teammate.

Unless you want to the do honours oh blue block.

-Time for you to ButterFlee

I hammered without intent to ruin town, it's not throwing.

Keeping silence when you know townie is wagoned on elo is throwing.

Also, stop bunnyhopping with minds, you are only fine with furtive 5 min ago, but after i called you out now you "don't care".

No time context given, but given the discussion is todays elimination.
Not only if I want to get into full social analysis you've just spewed yourself as todays planned lim to set up furtive deepwolf.

I'm aware English isn't your first language, but I also know you know it well enough to be able to not make the trip I've spotted.

-Butterflea used Perish Song.