Mini 2266: GnG's Upick Mafia [GAME OVER]

[jjh927]

I think the issue with your hood is that you have been listening to Mastina too much, and when I see her claim I'm probably gonna call you all clowns for thinking it conftowns her somehow

[Frozen Angel]

I AM BEARMANCER.

can you explain how exactly the revive skill works

the people who come back are guaranteed to have same alignment as before?

did you check stuff with mod?

It's 1-Shot obviously.
There's nothing stated about alignment.
Every character can be revived only once.

you can question the mod about it. ask if the revived players come back with their original role and alignment or not

[Enchant]

Ok just did, hold up.

[Frozen Angel]

I think the issue with your hood is that you have been listening to Mastina too much, and when I see her claim I'm probably gonna call you all clowns for thinking it conftowns her somehow

It does not conf town her. I've been against that all the time. Its just a claim that makes sense and she did it early. any thing else about it being related to her alignment is pure wifom. that's why I checked her last night.

I'm desperately in need of mod to come online to answer my question about my role right now.

[jjh927]

Do you think town!Mastina makes the clearly disingenuous argument that she is somehow conftown because Dwlee 'fell' for her fake E-1?

[Enchant]

So why you made "Great plan" when i already told i reviving Pooky, i hope that's not plan to clean wasting of XP?

[mastina]

This is probably the worst bus vote of all time

That would be because it's not a bus vote given I am town.

I am town by literally every metric possible.

My play is not my scumplay, past OR present.
The way I treated Gypyx/Dwlee is provably and demonstrably a way that I've

never

treated scumbuddies in the past

ever

because there literally is only two ways scumastina treats scumbuddies:
Either I try to defend the scumbuddies by not voting them...
...Or I try to be the sacrificial lamb and bus them with the intent of my death conftowning them.

Every scumgame of mine follows that basic pattern because it is quite simply: the most optimal way to play scum.

If you're going to defend scum, you need to

defend

scum. Defending scum without defending scum is stupidly obvious and everyone looks for it as being from scum. (Whereas if you hard-defend scum, people tend to think wrong-town instead.)
If you're going to bus scum, you need to

bus

scum. That means actively scumreading, pushing, and voting them. Bussing scum by hopping onto the wagon when momentum shifts that way is stupidly obvious and everyone looks for it as being what scum bussing do.

Like, literally. Every time I look for bussing, I look for the players who do precisely that. I look not for the players who hard-pushed or hard-defended. I look for the players who hedged their bets, because statistically speaking, that's where scum tend to be.

I realize that, yes, scumastina has invented new scum strategies this year. I realize that, yes, scumastina always evolves her play. I realize that, yes, scumastina needs to not fall into trust tells so playing to her win condition involves breaking established towntells whenever is possible.

So I realize that it is

possible

for this to be the first scumgame I've had where I would do that.

Possible

--not probable.

Because the most probable is that my scumplay uses the same tactics that I know have worked for literally years. Literally both my scum wins this year were not reinventing the wheel; they were just a return to form of the old scumastina formula that worked for years upon years prior to that. And both fell into one of the two archetypes above. In subreddit uPick, I hard-defended both scumbuddies for as long as I could and tried to save them for as long as I possibly could. In CONTROL, I hard-bussed

my entire scumteam

because I wanted to prop my scumbuddies up in the case that I went down early. (As it so happened, it ended up that I was propped up instead, but that's the thing about hard-bussing; it works regardless of which scum is the survivor in having the intended effect of propping the other up.)

The treatment of Gypyx and Dwlee do not match my scumplay at all.

More than that, the way I have played my role in response to the wagons on scum is provably not-scumbuddy-indicative:
On D1 I wanted to use my role to fake-hammer Gypyx via use of the vote tag. This is not something scumastina would have done. Even were she to have done so, she would have made sure to then follow through and make sure Gypyx actually DID get a reaction in. The cast of a real L-1 vote instead of a fake-hammer is literally counterproductive to the very thing I was out to accomplish. And the proof I was out to accomplish that is in my posting, too! I literally said what I wanted to do.

On D3 I

successfully

baited out a not-actually-hammer from Dwlee via my use of the vote tag--

while reminding my neighborhood of my role

. This had the effect of

conftowning my entire neighborhood

. If I were scum, then I would have either used it to reaction test Dwlee (in an attempt to save Dwlee with AtE), or Dwlee would have known that my L-1 was not an L-1 via being my scumbuddy. Except Dwlee didn't know because Dwlee isn't scum with anyone from the Sneak neighborhood.

My reads this game are reads that I have never given before as scum--the very fact that I had a scumread on you, Pooky, and

acted on it

is proof of that. Ditto for me having a scumread on jjh since D2.

Name once that scumastina has, to a NOTABLE SCUMMER, had them as a strong scumread and

followed through with a strong push on them

.

I sure can't think of any times because scumastina avoids antagonizing strong notable scummers. scumastina would never antagonize, say, LLD on D1 because of sheer

fear

that doing so would backfire.

But a town-mastina has made her beliefs frustratingly clear, as LLD can attest to. I literally got LLD tilted from

successfully pushing a D1 mislim on her

when we were both town, but I scumread her. Because when I am town, I don't care how notable the scummer is, how strong a player they are--if I think they are scum,

I will push them as scum

.

When it came to my scumread on you, yes, I was wrong, and after it was shown and proven that I was wrong, I never went back to it and said I was wrong because there was no point in having done so, the proof I was wrong was in your flip and there was nothing more to say about it than that. But don't you fucking DARE think for a second that there was no reason behind that.

Yes, I thought you were scum. Why? Because you were acting exactly the way I expect a scum-Pooky to act and not acting the way I expect a town-Pooky to act. You were acting in a way where you were going "lol" to things the same way you did in Pokemon, but instead of being lighthearted humor where you were having fun (which is one town behavior), or being actually-serious (which is another town behavior), you were a weird in-between that was too serious for jokey-Pokey, but too lighthearted for tryhard-solving-Pooky.

I didn't get to explain that before D1 ended, but I was going to before you self-hammered. You literally cut off my argument before I could make it but I was intending to argue

exactly this

above, and yes, it remains true! It was

wrong

, as proven by your flip, but I stand by the logic still applying and being

valid

, if slightly off. I realized in hindsight that I had miscalibrated my Pooky extremes-meter, but I never had reason to say this after the fact (the realization of how I miscalibrated the Pooky radar literally came to me as I was in bed, about to sleep, during a night phase some random night and was so inconsequential given you had already flipped that

I don't even remember the miscalibration-logic I realized

that night, as in, I figured out where I went wrong and how to fix it that night but it was so unimportant to me that I have since forgotten what I did wrong and what the fix was) because there was just no reason for me to.

I realize that my solving hasn't all been public in large part due to a combination of phoneposting and the challenge (no challenge in the PTs = can freely post in the PT with the only requirement there being to say I'm town since I am), but the fact is I've done quite extensive solving there as well, solving that goes beyond my capabilities as scum to do, and in thought processes that

I just don't have as scum

.

But let's remedy that, shall we?

I'm going to do a full paraphrase of my posting from the PT. (I think I'm technically allowed to 'quote without quote tags' it, as long as it doesn't contain quotes/links from the PT, but since this is 'I think' rather than 'I know', I'm not in the mood to eat a modkill/site ban so there will still be some paraphrasing to be had, except for my fullclaim which is already paraphrased.)

Now, I realize that giving timestamps in an attempt to confirm the timing of posts to gain an unfair advantage is against site rules, but I believe it should still be okay to give general timestamps so you have an idea of chronology. (An idea of chronology should be okay since it can help differentiate day phases, loose dates, etc., but isn't meant to confirm that these things happened at a specific time that is designed to be unfakeable. Not that it should matter since I have neighborhood members who can vouch for this.)

(I'm going to burn another post to do the paraphrase btw)

(in the mean time I will post the claim tho since Roden asked me to post the fullclaim of it)

mastina:

Spoiler: Claim stuff

I am town, so the role innately inherently is one that was designed as a town role because that's my alignment; I am town. I rolled town so I got a role designed to be a town role.

I submitted as my three Fantasy picks,
1:

I never fakeclaim as scum.

2:

You can track every login I ever make by checking my 'last visited'!

and,
3:

If I post, I'm town; if I don't, I'm scum.

(Okay so my final role I suppose kinda sorta takes from the third a little bit but I technically got none of these as my role.)

I'm in a rush so I can't explain why those were my picks right now (short version: me being cheeky, in keeping with a Ginngie modded game tradition, can explain the tradition when I have more time), but instead of any of those, I got,
"Liar Liar Pants on Fire"; my ability is to lie and lie again. (This is an actual ability btw but it's mostly a passive.)

In addition to that primary ability (presumably, the primary ability would be swappable the same way it was with LLD but this part wouldn't be), I start out with a passive ability; since posting = I'm town, I'm required to post that I am town, or else I convert to 3p. (This isn't as good a paraphrase as I would like but I am in a rush and I don't want my rush to get me modkilled so I have to accept a subpar paraphrase rather than risk a too-close one.)

I think it's tailored towards me being town but it's theoretically possible to be a scum role? But it isn't, since I'm town.[/quote]

I was missing something, though. Mastina's votes weren't counted. Mastina unvoting was counted as a vote. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the opposite of vote/unvote is whatever Mastina is actually doing

Yeah you figured it out.

That should put some extra context behind my statement of being disappointed that Titus got Gypyx off of L-1 yesterday; I was going to reaction test by casting a hammer vote on Gypyx (which wouldn't be an actual hammer because of the reversal in play). I'm pretty sure Titus figured it out D1, but I was trying to keep it under wraps for as long as possible to keep the potential for the reaction test around for as long as I could.

Alas, during the start of D2, I actually forgot about my own role--and so did Ginngie, incidentally enough. Ginngie and I both forgot, so after I remembered my role, I needed to do my intended action of joining the wagon and PM'd Ginngie to remind Ginngie of my role since we had both forgotten the mechanic.

Ah well.

I am town tho.

The ability to lie is the vote/unvote reversal by the way. That's my actual town power role. I hinted at this previously in this neighborhood in the context of LLD's roleclaim, but this is me confirming it just like how I'm confirming that, yes, I'm town.[/quote]Okay so a full paraphrase with all the cards revealed:

I submitted as my three Fantasy picks,
1:

I never fakeclaim as scum.

2:

You can track every login I ever make by checking my 'last visited'!

and,
3:

If I post, I'm town; if I don't, I'm scum.

I am town, and my role is, "Liar Liar Pants on Fire".
My main ability is to lie repeatedly, which is my vote/unvote swap. This is considered my primary ability.
My passive is a requirement that at least half of my posts say "I'm town". If I don't, I will change alignment to Werewolf. This makes me gain the power to bite players every Even Night phase. The Werewolf win condition is to be the last player alive.

However, as I am town, my wincon is to have all threats to the town be eliminated with at least one town player alive--since the Werewolf win condition is to be the last player alive and the town wincon requires a town player alive, that means the Werewolf win condition is mutually exclusive with the town's. It is as far as I can tell akin to a Serial Killer.

Thus, why I need to stay town because this town is on track to win imo.

I'll see if I can sort things out in a bit with reading and processing and gathering info and consolidating it.

Extra context:

It's important to note that I have done a particular thing in every single Ginngie game.

In Do it for the Vine uPick, Ginngie asked for submissions of Vines, as in, 6 second videos from the site Vine.
I didn't know what Vines from the site Vine were--so instead, I submitted picks that were Vines, as in, the plant.

Ginngie, appropriately, to what amounted to a troll pick from me, gave me a cult role in response.

In Joint Pick 4 U, Ginngie asked for submissions of drugs.
Two of my 'drug' submissions were literally 'masturbating' and 'mafiascum'. (I forget what the third was.)
These not being the drugs Ginngie had in mind, similar to how Vines the plant were not the Vines Ginngie had in mind, Ginngie appropriately gave me a 3p role.

In this game, I deliberately kept the tradition up. Ginngie asked for Fantasy picks, as in, picks from works from the Fantasy genre.

Instead, I submitted things that would count as 'Fantasies', or things that at least

should

be Fantasies, per the mafiascum mod team.
Which resulted in me getting the role that I have, where I'm town.

XP Distribution:

At end of D1, had 2 XP. (.25 + Challenge + End of day wagon + end of day.)
Bought BP (automatically active, protects once from one killing action) + Bodyguard (all killing actions on target redirected towards user instead).

Night 1,

Bodyguarded

Lady LambdaDelta

(this by necessity

failed

)

At end of D2, had 2.5 XP (.25 + Challenge + video + End of day wagon + end of day.)

Bought Engineer + Warrior-Secret (Vigilante--works as a standard Vig action, killing one target)

Used

Engineer

on

Frozen Angel

immediately into N2.

Used

Vigilante

on

Yume

N2.

At end of D3, had 2 XP (.5 + .25 + Challenge + end of day)

Bought BP (automatically active, protects once from one killing action) + Bodyguard (all killing actions on target redirected towards user instead).

Night 3,

Bodyguarded

Titus

.

I will give the full paraphrase of the PT shortly.

[mastina]

I'm town, yes, really.

[jjh927]

When you're town, you can make insincere arguments, and you often do so in early day 1 because it generates content- ie, it has a pro-town purpose behind it.

Thing is, you're still making insincere arguments right now when there's no pro-town purpose behind it. You're just throwing in as many arguments as you can that you are town, particularly ones that do not make sense, and I've seen you trying to dilute the elimination pool whenever we've been on top of scum (eg gypyx, reinhardt/dwlee) by being willing to vote anyone else (eg Pooky, Yume, Shiro, me). It's non-committal; you still kept the scum in the pool because you couldn't argue against the consensus, but you have only voted scum when you can gain a better position from it.

[Enchant]

The fuck are these submits, and what they have to do with fantasy.

[jjh927]

Like, I'm not looking for your scumgame right now

I'm looking for not your towngame

And I'm afraid you've made too many arguments that I know you know to be completely meaningless for you to be town here. How are you still maintaining the dwlee fake E-1 thing with a straight face? By your logic it would also conftown Yume and I, since we both noticed it as well. I explicitly didn't post in main thread after you did it so I could see what happened

[Frozen Angel]

@roden you explicitly claimed that vampires arent aligned with town and cant get vigged

refused to accept that you're a survivor.

why that doesn't mean you're scum now that we know what dunnestral was

[mastina]

I think the issue with your hood is that you have been listening to Mastina too much, and when I see her claim I'm probably gonna call you all clowns for thinking it conftowns her somehow

It does because I can't make this shit up as scum.

Site rules mean that it is forbidden to say "I don't fakeclaim as scum", but,
-The above shouldn't be that since the above is me saying this is beyond my ability to make shit up as scum since

I literally don't think that way

, and,
-Check some prior posting particularly what's written in this post and let's just say, look at what the linked posts say and think about how likely it is that I make this shit up. While I'm saying it's physically impossible for me to think that way,

even if I could

, let's just say that the chances would be quite...shall we say? ...Improbable.

Do you think town!Mastina makes the clearly disingenuous argument that she is somehow conftown because Dwlee 'fell' for her fake E-1?

The only thing disingenuous about that is YOU

saying it is

.

You of all people should know DAMN fucking good and well that

yes

, I believe that Dwlee genuinely fell for the fake L-1.
I have a fair understanding of Dwlee as a player. I know the way they play, what they are prone to doing. How they tend to not pay the closest attention to things like exact mechanics/roles. The gambit would never work if it was

you

at L-1, jjh, but it worked specifically because it was

Dwlee

. Dwlee is exactly the type of player who COULD be baited by my role, and by virtue of having been baited by my role, end up spewing players from it.

The disingenuous thing isn't me thinking that Dwlee falling for it cleared four players--the disingenous thing is

you arguing that it is disingenuous

.

Also, a key question:
Where's the scum nightkills from both N2 and N3?

I used a vig shot on Yume. That means that if I were scum I'd have shot elsewhere. Who would I have shot N2 that would not be killable N3?
"But mastina! What if it was Dwlee making the kill and the kill was rolestopped?!?"
Oh you mean rolestopped by

one of my neighbors

who CLAIMED THE ROLESTOP BEFORE THE END OF THE NIGHT?
Yeah, the flaw in that should be evident; if I were scum with Dwlee, Dwlee would not be making the N2 nightkill

while knowing that Dwlee was going to be blocked

.
So it would

need

to be ME making the N2 nightkill. Where was the N2 nightkill from me?
Where was the N3 nightkill from me?

I wasn't blocked either night.
I shot Yume with the vig N2 and Roden claimed to be shooting Yume N3, so I wouldn't use a nightkill on Yume on either N2/N3.

So where's the scum nightkill if I am scum?

Occam's razor instead suggests that the scum nightkill N2 was rolestopped by Dunnstral since the scum

did not know about it

, and that N3 the scum nightkill was on Titus but was foiled by a bulletproof bodyguard on her.

Speaking of the kills though, they don't match up with a scumastina MO anyway. LLD is a good nightkill but she's not who I N1 strongman. I kill her before endgame always, sure, but I don't kill her N1, not even when she's conftown. My N1 here would be Titus, since Pooky so helpfully pointed out that Titus was the masonizer on D1 and scumastina would be smart enough to realize Pooky was right in that callout. A Titus death N1 would set LLD off on the wrong path (since it would make Titus's influence on LLD's stances larger), and LLD on the wrong path does more damage than Titus on the wrong path. I kill LLD on N2 and if she's got a BP repeat it on N3, or even holster the strongman N1 and use it on LLD N2.

[mastina]

I'm town, yes, really, truly.

[Frozen Angel]

roden play in our chat yesterday in order that happened was:

- after discovering dunn is vampire instantly claimed he knows vampires arent town and cant get vigged
- claimed he wants a vampire killed as well as winning with town
- pushed against the idea of dunn getting vigged or masonized (obviously hints at him knowing he would flip as town)
- refused to claim he is 3p when directly asked about his own alignment
- implied he wont leave game and has more stuff to do with his wincondition in our chat
- then directly claimed he is leaving game victorious if we get dunn lynched in main thread

[Roden]

@roden you explicitly claimed that vampires arent aligned with town and cant get vigged

refused to accept that you're a survivor.

why that doesn't mean you're scum now that we know what dunnestral was

I hard pushed both scum elims and tried to save Pooky.

[Frozen Angel]

@roden you explicitly claimed that vampires arent aligned with town and cant get vigged

refused to accept that you're a survivor.

why that doesn't mean you're scum now that we know what dunnestral was

I hard pushed both scum elims and tried to save Pooky.

how that means you're not an evil 3p

[Roden]

Ok if you claimed in the hood early on that changes things

Still unfortunate I got basically nothing done last night then, because my Bodyguard and Vig shot did nothing as well one two three four

[Roden]

@roden you explicitly claimed that vampires arent aligned with town and cant get vigged

refused to accept that you're a survivor.

why that doesn't mean you're scum now that we know what dunnestral was

I hard pushed both scum elims and tried to save Pooky.

how that means you're not an evil 3p

I literally explained this one in depth yesterday. You even admitted my play makes no sense to come from evil 3P.

[Roden]

Ok if you claimed in the hood early on that changes things

Still unfortunate I got basically nothing done last night then, because my Bodyguard and Vig shot did nothing as well one two three four five

[Frozen Angel]

@roden you explicitly claimed that vampires arent aligned with town and cant get vigged

refused to accept that you're a survivor.

why that doesn't mean you're scum now that we know what dunnestral was

I hard pushed both scum elims and tried to save Pooky.

how that means you're not an evil 3p

I literally explained this one in depth yesterday. You even admitted my play makes no sense to come from evil 3P.

That was on the baisi that you're acting protown and wanting to sort dunnestral instead of just getting him killed. now we know it wasn't true and you lied about dunnestral not being aligned with town and not being viggable

so it just makes it look like you slipped and claimed you need him dead for your wincondition and got forced to continue playing like that instead of just continuing your initial narrative about him being scum

[Frozen Angel]

basis*

[Frozen Angel]

I started suspecting you when you told jjh you'll leave game when you get dunn killed. that doesn't make sense with what you were implying in thread. you were also clearly worried about him getting vigged and vene claimed you BG him when first you said he cant be vigged - then tried to bring an excuse for it saying he might spread his vampirism if he is shot at. That exactly why I thought its best if I just shoot him

[Roden]

Angel, if yoiu

really

wanna do this, I don't really care. I already said my flip will prove my alignment and we can scrounge up the experience to rez me once I'm proven town.

[jjh927]

Mastina, how can your 'belief' that Dwlee fell for the fake E-1 conftown YOU? I am saying it was theatre and that you could very easily have told Dwlee to 'self hammer' in the scum PT- which, given Dwlee's level of activity otherwise, is highly likely as Dwlee probably wasn't checking the thread that regularly. Like, you're saying that your belief in a thing makes it more likely that it conftowns you when that makes no sense as you're lying if you're scum. I don't know for sure whether you believe it or not, but I do believe you realise that whether you believe it or not it doesn't make you or anyone else conftown. It's a thing that happened and could happen in exactly the same way regardless of your alignment