Micro 1052: Lake Melancholy [END]

[Enchant]

Bye.

You are going somewhere though?

[fireisredsir]

i kinda am feeling towny on datisi atm bc although i do agree he feels a little off (hard for me to tell since my only completed game with him he was scum, but i can get the vibes at least), it feels off in a similar way to how i myself feel off -- everyone is good, reads are hard to come by in this game, no one is obvtown or obvscum, we're all crammed in this tight space, etc etc. and i feel like i can kinda relate to the way in which it is affecting his play here

but i do know that he's good at feeling relatable as scum so i don't trust it completely. would prefer not to lim there today tho. gimme skitt or vp

[skitter30]

i have no clue why you're saying i'm having existential dread when i was interrogating prism about her read on me

because (1) do you disagree that i was wrong about her push on me being weird and lawyery? she agreed with that (2) I ALWAYS INTERROGATE PEOPLE WHEN I FEEL THEIR READ ON ME IS SHIT

like you scumread me for this in one scumgame and then you scumread me for it in a towngame and it's like FAM that's just how i solve so what's the issue

what's the existential dread here

Ur issue earlier was me saying that you had any existential dread to begin with

It later changed to 'fine i may have existential dread but i dont like you saying it'

And i'm saying you:
- didnt explain why its scummy for me to think that
- should have reevaluated between point 1 and point 2 upon receiving the information that you are in fact giving off that vibe (i.e. and consider hiw that might affect my read on you) but instead you just jumped to 'well you're scummy for thinking that anyways', which is partly why i think you're manufacturing this read, because *in context* it makes sense for me to think this about your play, but you're skipping over the checkpoint of 'does this make sense' to continue to find reasons to scumread me

[Shuichi Saihara]

How are you reading him?

besides +partner with you, i am not

Then i suggest that you endeavor to form a read on him, his iso is p empty and easy to read ... ^

And fwiw i am formally scumreading now too ...

I don't think I've ever seen someone use the phrase "formally scumreading" before and the most likely brain-corner I can see it coming from is a hyperawareness of one's own trajectory.

- i object to the characterization of my push on you as a 'complaint about an early game wagon on me'

Yeah... so do I.

@vpb: you commented on my apparent lack of commentary on ari/prism in 309, and this is what you argued:

Also, my questions are on fucking point. As opposed to you, who provided zero commentary on the main event of the game so far (ari/prism)Prism, and just omgused me on basically the same thing I called you out about.

And in 409 you literally quote two differnet posts where i discuss it prior to that point, so that is not an accurate claim in the slightest. You're also ignoring posts: 169, 211, 214, 240, 268, all of which contain commentary on their argument, and quite lot of which is before prism poked me.

You arguing that i have no commentary on the argument is somewhere on the sliding scale of ignorance, willful ignorance, and outright misrepresenration, and i'm leaning towards the latter given the tone/vibe of 409.

Also after me pointing out that i actually do have content on this topic, and that your original claim is incorrect, you changed your argument to me not having content about it *until prism poked me about it*, which is not what you were originally dinging me for, i will note as well. I guess you think this is an easier argument for you to win tho

You keep bringing this up, why?

Me, ceph, and fire all made similar criticisms of your posts so far. You're only scumreading me for it, however. To me, rhat implies that your read on me isnt real, because if you were inherently concerned with my line of questioning, you would be asking fire/ceph about *their* line of questio ning as well, bur you're not. You're all but ignoring their pushes on you

@vpb: sooooooo had you even read my posts when you said that i had no commentary on the ari/prism thing?

Also now that you've read them, you're moving the goalposts from: zero commentary on the argument to none until prism prodded me to my posts about the argument were weak ...

Also 240 is a direct response to 238, where prism questioned how i was reading her based on the ari/prism argument ...

Worthy of checking VPB's posts to assess accuracy but I recall agreeing with these at the time so they're likely valid. Not sure whether it was here or somewhere else, but I had a moving-goalposts issue with VPB too, and I typically don't excel at noticing things like that.

I feel like Skitter is probably logically correct in some way but is still scum but idk if that's ridiculous of me or not

It is ridiculous of you, yes

This post has already been lambasted appropriately, but I'm choosing to note again that it is challenging to see it as real. Refuge in logic is a scum tactic everyone learns about on their first day playing mafia.

I feel like Skitter is probably logically correct in some way but is still scum but idk if that's ridiculous of me or not

It is ridiculous of you, yes

does this imply that skitter is claiming she cannot be logically correct as scum? wild

Why is this what you're popping in to comment on >.>
And i dont think that's what i'm implying?
Pedit yes plz do, in particular 409 which i feel is incredibly misreppy

Dats ... >.>
That post has so many issues with it i dont even know where to begin

I noticed these two shifty-eye faces around Datisi and it made me wonder if they're emblematic of guilt over pushing Datisi. Could be town guilt from not wanting to doubt your friend, perhaps. There's obviously a preexisting relationship here. This is basic of me, but nonetheless. If I could use the search function on this, I would.

[fireisredsir]

i also don't really think that the reasons you are casing dats are very scummy things in this specific game, skitter. like, weak reads, self-doubt, even the existential dread. im feeling most of those things as well so i don't really see it as that scummy. and its not like he's going over the top in playing it up, if he were i could totally see how that's scummy behavior, but i don't feel an overabundance of woe is me.

i think it would be believable that he would imitate those vibes as scum, but it's kind of a risky play unless he really sells it hard and i don't think he is, so the alternative would be to just project more confidence. there's been times when he has (someone said "bluster-y"?) but its always felt pretty thin and transparent, and his honest thoughts shine through pretty easily and quickly. compare to when he pushed on fua in the large, that felt blustery but he went like all in on it and really played it up

so the being kind of in the middle here just reads more as honest to me but trying at times to be good strong town player even when he doesn't fully believe in his own reads

[Prism]

Will try to catch up on all this shit later.

Aristeia probably thinks they're both town and won't vote whichever one I would lmao (and without reading the answer is burn tiger)

[Shuichi Saihara]

My other idea is just burn the skitter and honestly good chance it works good but god help us all if it doesn't and that approach would probably tilt her off the end of the earth.

I mean it probably wont *tilt* me but i'll make it my mission before i go to get all of u to strongly consider vpb and dats afterwards

I am reading this iso and I barely know why you suspect Datisi so much. You've been on it for literally half the game, but whatever the concern is has been at least pretty muted up until this point. Probably this is also a failure of mine to investigate thoroughly enough, but surely it must merit some volume by now.

I would also like to note that i am still somewhat sus of dwlee

And upon reflection, i'm less confident in town-ari than i was ro begin with

Pedit i actually think i would egg it on as tvt as scum. Like pick a side and just make it a bigger thing
Kinda weird how you and ari are coming to opposite conclusions about what i would do but still both scumread me

Call it gut but I really don't think VP Baltar is scum

Fwiw i am probably getting over this read

I don't understand why none of this comes with reasons.

[fireisredsir]

when you do get back prism i wanna know more about what you think on vp and why he is such strong town to you. i see 647 but would like more

[Shuichi Saihara]

I do like that skitter has not given in and pushed Enchant for survival.

[Shuichi Saihara]

He feels so off tho >.>

But fine

VOTE: dwlee

That's the third vote btw ^

On the other hand, this could have done the trick if I'm wrong about Dwlee, especially with Enchant in the game.

[fireisredsir]

yea i found that pretty concerning. her posting since then has felt better to me (more the way she's positioning, not as much what she's saying) but i don't really know what she looks like under pressure

[skitter30]

Uh ceph, you're kinda painting my posts in (what i feel to be) a needlessly uncharitabe light, multiple times in these wallposts, some examples including:

I make >.>'s all the time as both alignments in all sorts of contexts, and i have a long history of doing so across multiple games. Picking two out of the multiple i've made in this game to ascribe guilt is ?
And you may not like that i havent elaborated upon my reasons for my reads, but failing to do so is not inherently scum-indicative, and i believe you ought to know that ...
'Formally scumread' also a phrase i believe i have said multiple times in a variery of games, basically just to indicate the read is 'official' now

I'm mot sure there's anything you particularly want me to respond to tho

[skitter30]

yea i found that pretty concerning. her posting since then has felt better to me (more the way she's positioning, not as much what she's saying) but i don't really know what she looks like under pressure

I'm not sure you actually want a response to this, but i tend to freeze under pressure as scum
I dont start posting more :shrug:

[skitter30]

He feels so off tho >.>

But fine

VOTE: dwlee

That's the third vote btw ^

On the other hand, this could have done the trick if I'm wrong about Dwlee, especially with Enchant in the game.

No? I would have unvoted if it reached e1 with enchant in the game. And if i were trying to hasten the wagon i wouldnt havr counted the votes or announced the e1 ...

What exactly are you trying to imply here?

[skitter30]

*announced the e2

[fireisredsir]

responses never hurt

that was kinda my guess but the only time you got pressure in previous game you weren't caught up so the lack of posting prob was not ai

[fireisredsir]

do you have any thoughts on what i said re:datisi

[Shuichi Saihara]

There's a lot of hedging here. 32 doesn't do anything besides try to look town -- as I write this, I'm thinking the entire concept of "I want to townread X, but I won't" is scummy, which is an original thing that's coming up for me right now; it looks like a town thought process but avoids committing to any read. 196 calls the conflict TvT without really calling it TvT ("I don't really have thoughts, except here are my thoughts"). "I'm not sure that damning" reads similarly, and "I don't think" would have served just as nicely in that slot meaning-wise.

You can call it hedging sure, but that's just how i normally talk/type

Possibly true. And you'd think I'd be sympathetic as I'm so frequently guilty of this myself. I don't remember seeing as much of it in Radio Buzz, which is as close as I have to a model.

If you are town and want me to give scum-dats the time of day as a concept, I need more.

If you want to give me like 4 hours, sure

Part lf it tho is that i dont think town-dats doubles down on me here ^

Pedit dats why are u even scumreadinf me exactly? Your whole trajectory on me rhis game is waffling in accordance with how big the game on me is

I'm in no hurry. There are several more players I want to investigate before I decide who I want to elim today, and I'm likely only going to do 0 or 1 more today.

These thoughts are all just... so basic and obvious. Scum might even not post them because they're so uninteresting and level zero/probably the first thing one would think of.

I would also like to point out that i repeatedly said at the time that i didnt really have thoughts, but was asked to produce some anyways

Dinging me for having unsatisfactory thoughts when i said that i didnt have any is just kinda ....

Ok dats:
- he's exuding a vibe of 'i hate this game' which i think strongly correlates with scum-him, ari agrees that he has this vibe but was telling me it isnt scum-indicative so i backed off. I still strongly think this is +scum for him
- his reads are incidental and dont make sense, ex: prism read, ex: read on me
-- read on me has been waffle-y and he keeps changing it, often in accordance with how big my wagon is / how easy i am to push
-- i dont think he sincerely scumreads me here. His read basically boils down to 'i'm scumreading him for nonsense' *while acknowledging* that he thinks town-me has often done that before
-- even if that is his read on me, i dont think town-him chooses to push me for that reason on day1, whereas scum-him will absolutely take advantage of the existing wagon
- in general the rest of his reads are incidental and weak (if they exist at all) ... his dwlee read is that he doesnt think scum-dwlee pushes enchant today which is just ???? why is that even remotely town indicative ... ???

I would like people to look into this more please ^

Harrumph. Expecting me to do the work!

- he's exuding a vibe of 'i hate this game' which i think strongly correlates with scum-him, ari agrees that he has this vibe but was telling me it isnt scum-indicative so i backed off. I still strongly think this is +scum for him

Also dats was scumreading me *for thinking he had this vibe*, but when it was objectively noted that he has this vibe (i.e. i'm not just making it up), he's still scumreading me for accusing him of this, which doesnt make sense

i have no clue why you're saying i'm having existential dread when i was interrogating prism about her read on me

because (1) do you disagree that i was wrong about her push on me being weird and lawyery? she agreed with that (2) I ALWAYS INTERROGATE PEOPLE WHEN I FEEL THEIR READ ON ME IS SHIT

like you scumread me for this in one scumgame and then you scumread me for it in a towngame and it's like FAM that's just how i solve so what's the issue

what's the existential dread here

Ur issue earlier was me saying that you had any existential dread to begin with

It later changed to 'fine i may have existential dread but i dont like you saying it'

And i'm saying you:
- didnt explain why its scummy for me to think that
- should have reevaluated between point 1 and point 2 upon receiving the information that you are in fact giving off that vibe (i.e. and consider hiw that might affect my read on you) but instead you just jumped to 'well you're scummy for thinking that anyways', which is partly why i think you're manufacturing this read, because *in context* it makes sense for me to think this about your play, but you're skipping over the checkpoint of 'does this make sense' to continue to find reasons to scumread me

Uh oh, this feels important but I'm getting into eye-glaze 1v1 mode.

[fireisredsir]

Uh oh, this feels important but I'm getting into eye-glaze 1v1 mode.

better than me, i just deemed it unimportant tbh

[skitter30]

Yeah i tend to freeze as scum.
See eod2 of the 'bunnies mini normal' for how i react to pressure as town in a similar situation (also in an airport even!)

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88600

Pedit wrt dats - i guess the bit that i'm having trouble wifh is that his stand-off-ish-ness doesnt seem relatable to me this game, and but i van see a universe where scum him decides to lean into this to give him a way to 'interact' with the game

[Shuichi Saihara]

Uh ceph, you're kinda painting my posts in (what i feel to be) a needlessly uncharitabe light, multiple times in these wallposts, some examples including:

I make >.>'s all the time as both alignments in all sorts of contexts, and i have a long history of doing so across multiple games. Picking two out of the multiple i've made in this game to ascribe guilt is ?

That instance just stood out to me. You're right that there are plenty more and I have done no research to see whether you do that in every game. I'm just posting my thoughts as I have them right now. I'm not trying to arrive at any particular conclusion. Why did you end this post with a question mark instead of just calling me scum when that is clearly what you want to say?

And you may not like that i havent elaborated upon my reasons for my reads, but failing to do so is not inherently scum-indicative, and i believe you ought to know that ...
'Formally scumread' also a phrase i believe i have said multiple times in a variery of games, basically just to indicate the read is 'official' now

I'm mot sure there's anything you particularly want me to respond to tho

You did say at the start of the game (and I'd say this is still early game) that you just post whatever pops into your head, or something similar to this. That makes me think that it would be reasonable to expect reasons from you. I'm aware that some players just throw reads out sometimes; I have not previously found you to be that type of person.

There is nothing I particularly want a response to. I'm generally uninterested in defenses unless they provide new information or clarify something I genuinely misunderstood.

[Shuichi Saihara]

He feels so off tho >.>

But fine

VOTE: dwlee

That's the third vote btw ^

On the other hand, this could have done the trick if I'm wrong about Dwlee, especially with Enchant in the game.

No? I would have unvoted if it reached e1 with enchant in the game. And if i were trying to hasten the wagon i wouldnt havr counted the votes or announced the e1 ...

What exactly are you trying to imply here?

You could hardly guarantee you would see the thread before enchant, but sure, whatever.

I was implying that my townpoint for not going for enchant should be withdrawn as you were going after something as plausible, perhaps more plausible, to go through.

[skitter30]

Harrumph. Expecting me to do the work!

Uh, yeah actually. I dont think that's an unreasonable request at all, to expect you to read the posts where i explain my dats read immediately after you complain i havent explained my dats read

And hey a cursory cntrl-f of the firsf page of my iso in radio buzz guves 18 >.>'s so

[skitter30]

Uh oh, this feels important but I'm getting into eye-glaze 1v1 mode.

better than me, i just deemed it unimportant tbh

...
Sigh

[Dwlee99]

Enchant is at E-1 ftr