Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[Flavor Leaf]

No, saying it’s manipulative and calling me that is the icky part.

You’re flipping that on me.

[Roden]

Leaf, I'm not going to throw down in the dirt with you or engage in a "no u" back and forth.

How did Mala pocket you?

[Flavor Leaf]

How did Mala pocket you?

I've repeated my reasonings for townreading Mala 3+ times.

[Roden]

I'm not asking why you town read her.

I'm asking about what she did to pocket you.

[ItalianoVD]

If no one sees Roden is scum here you’re not trying. Koopa what are you on brother?

Do me a favor and vote Roden. Okay?

[JacksonVirgo]

Sup my fam, it's ya boi back from his 8 hour sleep followed by a 4 hour nap after a bit of study. I am now the least tired I have ever been holy cow.

[JacksonVirgo]

as a traitor

you crumbed so maybe not

OK. Since I want you all to stop talking about my slot like this because I'm blatant town - I'm a gunsmith.

That is why: I believe traitors are possible.

That is why: I think there are no masons in this setup

Okay, not what I thought you were honestly. Thought you were a etnaligiV, which was mainly why I wanted to put you into heat so you're not shot, didn't think you were actually scum :p

I have a few questions for you however:
1. Why do you think a Gunsmith game lands into a Traitor game? That's a large stretch if I've ever seen one.
2. Are you taking the assumption of no masons into consideration because of your traitor conclusion? Or is it tied with your claimed role?

[JacksonVirgo]

FL is approaching their reads in a way that is meant to appease the people he wants to have credibility and push down people he doesnt want to have credibility. It isn't solving - it's bullshit. And you are trolling if you can't see the truth here.

Dude immediately made up a fake ass excuse to discount my claim being towny or not because he wants to discredit me.

Bury his partner and them him.

OR we can just bury him first. I really don't care at this point - it's flagrantly obvious.

Can you look at my post on FL pocketing and give me your thoughts on that? Nobody commented on it sadly and I actually want opinions on it

[JacksonVirgo]

Please, this is actually a really amazing find and reason for the 3 of us to converge into one wagon.

Can we please all pressure towards Roden? I truly think it's the best fade for the day,

Can you possibly case roden again for me, assuming I am super out of the loop cuz I am.

[JacksonVirgo]

I can foresee a very bad thing happening oh no.

[JacksonVirgo]

I think you assuming that just because you are a gunsmith means that a traitor is more likely. Because it is not, what's more likely is it's used as a cop that can RP nwot a ytliug-eslaf role or a Mafia doctor exists, or have it purely as a way to not have super obvious checks similar to how Cop would in a normal. I do not see how you've come to the conclusion of no traitors existing.

[JacksonVirgo]

I think you assuming that just because you are a gunsmith means that a traitor is more likely. Because it is not, what's more likely is it's used as a cop that can RP nwot a ytliug-eslaf role or a Mafia doctor exists, or have it purely as a way to not have super obvious checks similar to how Cop would in a normal. I do not see how you've come to the conclusion of traitors existing.

EBWOP

[MalcolmTucker]

@Malcolm - Would you consider going Roden over Monkey today?

Just caught up and while I don't entirely trust HEM I've liked their posts a bit more than I had up until now. They want to vote Mala of course, but feel like it'd have been easy for them to go more all-in on you given Koopa's recent approach to make the valid seem easier and more immediate in terms of pushing it.

My preferred elimination for now is NK15, I can see a world where NK15 started pushing HEM to take the heat off themselves for the wagon on you once it started to fade.

VOTE: Not Known 15

I'm still not particularly convinced by Roden but do feel like it's convenient their reads are very much casually lining up for what would be most convenient for them re you + Mala, if that makes sense. So if it comes down to a 1v1 I'd vote Roden, but I want to hear a lot more from Mala because while I didn't SR them early on, I'm feeling increasingly uneasy about the slot's lack of activity.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think Koopa is just ridiculously town here but needs to fundamentally alter their current approach to the game - they were stuffing every page with an absurd number of posts every night saying the same things over and over again, and I say this as someone who also has a habit of repeating points I'm trying to make.

Not everyone is going to agree with their reads on D1 and trying to use a role claim to absolutely insist where our votes must go while vetoing other candidates is not a good look at all. We are all trying to solve here and simply posting a lot does not give any player the inherent right to completely take over the town, especially when Jackson's posts above highlight certain assumptions being made by Koopa may potentially be incorrect.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think you assuming that just because you are a gunsmith means that a traitor is more likely. Because it is not, what's more likely is it's used as a cop that can RP nwot a ytliug-eslaf role or a Mafia doctor exists, or have it purely as a way to not have super obvious checks similar to how Cop would in a normal. I do not see how you've come to the conclusion of no traitors existing.

I also feel like this is quite a townie post from Jackson here. Presuming Koopa is town if they are making incorrect assumptions about the gamestate mafia has no reason to correct them and inform us to a greater extent that this may be incorrect. Also - while it's not impossible, I'm not sure mafia are as likely to casually speculate in this thread on what roles will be in the game when they have more info than the rest of us.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think Koopa is just ridiculously town here but needs to fundamentally alter their current approach to the game - they were stuffing every page with an absurd number of posts every night saying the same things over and over again, and I say this as someone who also has a habit of repeating points I'm trying to make.

Not everyone is going to agree with their reads on D1 and trying to use a role claim to absolutely insist where our votes must go while vetoing other candidates is not a good look at all. We are all trying to solve here and simply posting a lot does not give any player the inherent right to completely take over the town, especially when Jackson's posts above highlight certain assumptions being made by Koopa may potentially be incorrect.

Sorry this should say overnight, not every night.

[MalcolmTucker]

To add I'm just fundamentally very wary of the idea we've solved this game early on with Mala supposedly making themselves obvious in the first few pages as mafia before teammate Flavor then comes in to defend them resolutely and also basically then reveals themselves as mafia. That's not me saying neither player can slip or make an error here, because clearly they can, but I struggle to see a world here where mafia Flavor comes out and bats for mafia Mala so earnestly, which is essentially one of Koopa's main arguments here.

[JacksonVirgo]

To add I'm just fundamentally very wary of the idea we've solved this game early on with Mala supposedly making themselves obvious in the first few pages as mafia before teammate Flavor then comes in to defend them resolutely and also basically then reveals themselves as mafia. That's not me saying neither player can slip or make an error here, because clearly they can, but I struggle to see a world here where mafia Flavor comes out and bats for mafia Mala so earnestly, which is essentially one of Koopa's main arguments here.

Koopa keeps seeming to make deeply nested reads that would only make sense if we had the mechanical information for such as flips and claims, which comes later through the game. I believe koopa is the type of player to make one or two core points, and whether that be a habit of tunnelling or overconfidence in their own reads, fuse most if not all complementary arguments they see or think up to make a larger more complex theory. The problem with this approach is that if that core assumption is wrong, the entire tree of reads crumbles down so this type of playstyle only benefits in the later stages of the games and attempting to do so early is a fools errand.

I would much prefer, and it would benefit the Town overall, if you keep the theories as low to the initial base assumptions as humanly possible to avoid putting mental effort in forming these trees of arguments which would very likely crash down early game given how large the town pool is compared to scum. Doesn't mean you can't make them, just state them to look at later and look at them later if the initial assumption proves true. Trying to prove your skill to the Town via trying to complete solve early game is both foolish in the grand scheme of things and also doesn't help anybody if you fall into more bias and tunnel-vision that comes with this type of gameplay. It'd be much harder to recover from false reads than if you keep low to the ground.

I used to tend to do this, so I know what I am talking about.

[JacksonVirgo]

Leaf, I'm not going to throw down in the dirt with you or engage in a "no u" back and forth.

@FL

this ultimately seems like a Townie thing to say in this context, can I ask your thoughts on it.

[JacksonVirgo]

I forgot Kitty asked me for my scum-reads. Did I not make it painfully obvious already? Considering I am voting them

[KittyTacky]

@everyone

We should stop here for a moment(1 day or so) and everyone posts readslists and then we can discuss more.

I hate this idea..

Of course you do.

JacksonVirgoon. Scumpious. Mafiakittens.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I struggle to see a world here where mafia Flavor comes out and bats for mafia Mala so earnestly, which is essentially one of Koopa's main arguments here.

why not?

debunk FL's read on Malakittens
you can't.
it's the best way you can to defend a slot you are partnered with without having to justify yourself.
of course, the read comes into question when you ask FL to articulate how Malakittens could have designed the pocket — the answer will always be lacking because Malakittens was barely here.
of course, it's questionable for an experienced player like FL to be self-aware in their status as being pocketed and rolling with it
of course, FL is open to be taken out of the pocket
but of course, FL doesn't think mason claiming is inherently scummy even though there was no way for Malakittens to have been strongly townreading FL so much.
but of course, FL would disagree because he would say he has a town PM

this is really a positioning that you would expect from FL as scum, and you are just forced to look at the slot with paranoia because there's a vibe that his playstyle is just being scum whatever their role PM is. i've yet to confirm that, but italiano's remark (way back, forgot which post) hints to this.

im starting to realize why he's don corleone.

that's why we push Malakittens. a red Malakittens at least confirms this theory. (which FL can then debunk by saying he got pocketed >.>)

[humaneatingmonkey]

i'm repeating the mason claim ad nauseum because i'm shocked how little people care

[JacksonVirgo]

@everyone

We should stop here for a moment(1 day or so) and everyone posts readslists and then we can discuss more.

I hate this idea..

Of course you do.

JacksonVirgoon. Scumpious. Mafiakittens.

I struggle to see a world here where mafia Flavor comes out and bats for mafia Mala so earnestly, which is essentially one of Koopa's main arguments here.

why not?

debunk FL's read on Malakittens
you can't.
it's the best way you can to defend a slot you are partnered with without having to justify yourself.
of course, the read comes into question when you ask FL to articulate how Malakittens could have designed the pocket — the answer will always be lacking because Malakittens was barely here.
of course, it's questionable for an experienced player like FL to be self-aware in their status as being pocketed and rolling with it
of course, FL is open to be taken out of the pocket
but of course, FL doesn't think mason claiming is inherently scummy even though there was no way for Malakittens to have been strongly townreading FL so much.
but of course, FL would disagree because he would say he has a town PM

this is really a positioning that you would expect from FL as scum, and you are just forced to look at the slot with paranoia because there's a vibe that his playstyle is just being scum whatever their role PM is. i've yet to confirm that, but italiano's remark (way back, forgot which post) hints to this.

im starting to realize why he's don corleone.

that's why we push Malakittens. a red Malakittens at least confirms this theory. (which FL can then debunk by saying he got pocketed >.>)

So you aren't eliminating mala bcuz you think they're scummy? Why not just elim FL directly

[humaneatingmonkey]

I would much prefer, and it would benefit the Town overall, if you keep the theories as low to the initial base assumptions as humanly possible to avoid putting mental effort in forming these trees of arguments which would very likely crash down early game given how large the town pool is compared to scum.

i would even argue that these lines of thought, when used to case someone by "predicting" what scum!them would do at every step and then using that to wagon someone is scummy.

i only trust visceral gut feels that my townreads also feel.