Mini 2266: GnG's Upick Mafia [GAME OVER]

[mastina]

Scum snowballing relies on town playing poorly, not on scum playing well. The town has to misplay to allow that to happen

I mean--again, sure, but how is that different from any other game?

Every time the town does not eliminate scum on D1, the town has misplayed. If the town didn't misplay on D1, then it'd be a scum elimination D1. But games are not balanced around the town eliminating scum on D1. Because statistically speaking, the town misplays more than they do not on D1. Statistically speaking, the town does not eliminate scum on D1 as much as they eliminate town. (Which is in part because the town has more members so there's more candidates for the elimination.)

The town eliminating scum D1 is something that will give the town a huge advantage...but this is not a bad thing.

The town eliminating scum D2 will still give the town a good advantage, but this is also not a bad thing.

It is the job of the scum to protect the scum, generally speaking, as it is the job of the town to eliminate the scum. If the scum fail at their job and the town succeeds at theirs early-on, then yeah, the town's going to gain an edge?

If your idea of scum snowballing involves town literally giving scum all of their exp then sure

That doesn't need to happen at all? Like, while *three* scum couldn't get access to a vig N1 (and admittedly they wouldn't know it was a vig but if they invested there they'd find out), *one* could, entirely without the town's assistance. Voting on the D1 wagon + succeeding at challenge + natural XP gain + Enchant bonus gets them pretty much there.

The scum didn't need to know all of the town's actions to shut down the important actions. While the town couldn't track scum's XP, the scum could track the town's XP at least decently, so the scum would have fairly reliable methods of identifying each time a player was at a dangerous threshold. The scum didn't need to counter every town ability, they only needed to have enough to counter enough of the town's abilities, and they had that capability.

[jjh927]

I don't know about you, but I balance games such that either side could still win no matter who gets elimed on day 1. It can have a notable effect, but it shouldn't be total doom. If scum get elimed on day 1 in this setup, they will pretty much always lose. Especially if its their strongman because then they might literally never make a nightkill, as opposed to once or twice.

2.5 is the exp total you have stated for one scum player doing literally everything right. That is barely over halfway to 4. "Most of the way" is a bit of a stretch

[Dwlee99]

Town can get 4 conftown by revivers while scum are unable to make any night kills.

[jjh927]

Sidenote that the main reason we didn't hit scum day 1 was Titus somehow believing Gypyx could become a masoniser when she had like all the reasons in the world to realise that was impossible

I've found I can pretty reliably find scum in day 1 since I realised you don't need to go for the big fish. Might be interesting to look at my recent stats there but it'd probably end up being biased nonsense

[Frozen Angel]

Ngl, the amount of vitriol sent my way for trying to play to my wincon was really uncalled for.

You should have claimed your real role after I had died because you were town and could win normally

But instead you continued to lie and act dodgy and avoid explaining what happened with your role

You wouldn't have died if you claimed your real role and said you lied

yes I would not pursue getting him eliminated if he was not continuing to lie and if the lie was not evident for me. at least not immediately - maybe in later days I would suspect him again

[Frozen Angel]

Oh btw JJH there was in fact a 4th skill tree but it was scrapped in set up. Basically there would have been alignment changers and a bunch of other busted roles with it's own PT to chat in. However that was scrapped because I decided to remove alignment changes this game.

I think that could balance the game somewhat, if it was in a controlled manner

[Frozen Angel]

To clarify why I said not to Vig Dunn: I town read him and only wanted him as a backup wincon in case I couldn't win as town later on. I didn't expect Angel to do...literally, anything that she did.

Mate you made the situation a 1v1 between yourself and dun, dun didn't do that. I had an opportunity to remove the chaos around that and I tried to do so.

And if you were so inconsistent with your claims and dodgy about it that triggered me to do it + in addition to that dun weird skill that was used on me that at the time I was assuming it was anti town utility used on a "dieing person"

You said:

1 - he can't be vigged
2 - you will body guard him
3 - you don't know what happens when he is vigged, you might change alignment

non made sense after you changed your story repeatedly.

if I wouldn't shot dun then the next day elimination was either you again or we would eliminate dunn, and then eliminate you a day after delaying the whole thing by a day - knowing you could not get vigged cause of reflexive claim.

[Frozen Angel]

I was the doctor on Yume on night 3

THIS BOTHERED ME SO MUCH LMAO

No literally a MUP player with a N3 doctor flips at night and everyone wonders what possibly could have happened.

I was not expecting him to heal yume tbh, but guess he did it to stop roden

[Frozen Angel]

Ngl, the amount of vitriol sent my way for trying to play to my wincon was really uncalled for.

You should have claimed your real role after I had died because you were town and could win normally

But instead you continued to lie and act dodgy and avoid explaining what happened with your role

You wouldn't have died if you claimed your real role and said you lied

I was already getting voted out for lying, admitting that I lied doesn't change that outcome.

nah you got voted out for continuing to lie and shading others instead of coming clean.

if you were like, yeah I lied about everything, I had no info about vampires just wanted them dead so I played like that yesterday.

you would not be elimed.

you wouldn't. both me and jjh even said that and even tried to make you say that.

but then you went on saying stuff about how the game is bastard and mod lied to you which could not be the case. so your desprate try to keep your lies alive, and telling new lies, just couldn't pass on your elimination on that point.

[Frozen Angel]

What the fuck was dunnstral's blood pact

The mod thought it was funny that I bolded a message saying 'Perform Blood Pact' and put the mtg cards for no reason, so they asked me if the ability should do anything. I said it should inform FA that the blood pact has been performed and do nothing else

and the mod got you shot in the head for that.

I was so tilted when you used it till you flipped

I was like maybe he is scum 3p trying to change me from town that he knows I'm dieing?

so I went and bought and extra BP and shot you

[Frozen Angel]

setup specs:

I think the game had just too many investigative and protective roles. even if scum had enough utility (which they didn't) to do harm, this amount was just simply excessive.

that's why I was thinking we have a massive scum utility like arson or cult in game which we didn't

anyways my role was really fun and I thank you for designing it - even though I'm dumb enough to not knew how parts of it worked (lmao) thanks for modding gingie

<3

[Roden]

Angel I said not to Vig Dunn and you did it anyway

And when I tried to reason with you afterward you claimed over and over that I'll never flip town

You can say in hindsight you'd change your mind, but I was never going to believe that when you kept making plays that I told you would be bad to do, and anything I said to you afterwards got disregarded because you said it was impossible for me to be town over and over. And you were not the only one saying this on loop the entire day either. I actually thought you were scum at that point, because you shot Dunn after I told you not to and then blamed me for it.

I'm not even mad that I got voted out, I literally volunteered to for two game days straight and even said to vote me before voting Dunn. It was the "yeah fuck that guy" attitude afterwards that bothered me. I genuinely tried to make the least selfish play out of all my options but got forced into the worst one once you took those options away.

[Frozen Angel]

My vig on dunn was the best play I actually did in this game, even though he was town. It saved us at least a day to resolve the 1v1 between you and dunn.

I said you will not flip town cause you didnt try to reason with me. You tried to continue your lie about having information about vampires being scum etc. thats why I said you wont ever flip town. Cause I always respect people play and you just had no reason to continue that lie or play that day the way you did. It was anti town and would only makes sense if you had an other hidden agenda to persue.

shrugs anyway. think whatever you want. game is over whatsoever

[Frozen Angel]

and I in no context had any "yeah fuck that guy" attidue. You got pushed out of game for valid reasons. Maybe try to investigate them instead of acting up all high and mighty

[Roden]

I don't think a conversation here is helpful then if that's your takeaway from this.

[mastina]

Btw

Ginngie

/

Jingle

: I saw you two mention having a ton of alternate wincons.

You two may be interested in my Ulterior Motive Mafia, which will be a 24 player game with this info public (formatting is messy because I'm a terrible procrastinator, I've had the game idea for almost four months by now and have yet to finish it):

Loose draft of public info

Game is

mostly

standard multiball game.
All topics have daytalk.
Scum may use personal actions in accordance to their role PM in addition to factional actions in accordance to their role PM.
Not limited to strictly Normal mechanics/roles, but

mostly

normal.
All information in initial role PM guaranteed to be accurate. Could have, say, a doctor giving a false result to a gunsmith, or redirection roles, but these interactions will be fairly spelt out and not hidden.
No forced alignment change, but some ulterior motives

may

contain alignment changes.
Some ulterior motives may be malevolent; many ulterior motives will be relatively harmless, and can be things such as wallposting certain amount of words, being a top poster, being a bottom poster, etc.
However, claiming ulterior motives is a Very Bad Idea, as there will often be consequences to this.
There will be

approximately

half the players in the game with ulterior motives, but this is very

loosely

'half'. Could be as low as 6 or as high as 18, potentially, so not going to strictly be 12, can be more, can be less, but is in that range.)

(I'll eventually be needing a backup mod for it in particular although my terrible procrastinating at actually writing things out means I'm not quite ready to invite someone for that.)

[mastina]

Btw Ginngie all the other PTs are open but the Dead PT isn't...

[jjh927]

Guessing there wasn't a dead PT given the resurrection mechanics

[mastina]

Guessing there wasn't a dead PT given the resurrection mechanics

There was, it says I'm not authorized to read it.

Subject: Mini 2266: GnG's Upick Mafia [Warrior Neighborhood]

Why would a town player want to go through the warrior tree a second time to get another vig when reviving people is clearly the more pro-town option?

1: Frozen Angel told me not to take a miller, which meant I couldn't go for the mage tree while honoring her wishes.

2: I wasn't going for a second vig. I was going for a second bodyguard.
Now, when I was frustrated with the town for them wagoning two town players (myself and Roden) with no wagon on scum, I wanted a second vig as a "fuck you" to the town for it, but that was well after the fact.

[Dunnstral]

I was told

You've died this game but there is a chance for you to come back! I can't give you access to deadthreads yet but I will contact you in case the event happens

[Yume]

Also, I am adding a thing to my signature now that this game is over.

[lilith2013]