Mini 2270: Spring Fling!

[Dunnstral]

So wait this Day we vote out a pair, correct? or is it just a player

I'm not understanding your confusion, you commented on voting out Ginngie and Andante earlier, right?

[Malakittens]

Pair yeah

Gross

[Malakittens]

So wait this Day we vote out a pair, correct? or is it just a player

I'm not understanding your confusion, you commented on voting out Ginngie and Andante earlier, right?

I commented on not understanding why there is votes on them, but i wanted to make sure it's a pair being voted out

[Dunnstral]

Did you know that you are the only living player in the game who is not townreading me?

[Malakittens]

That's fine. I'm used to being the oddball out.

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: Luke+mala

:sad face:

his scumread on myko. this was what triggered me to think this in the first place. i thought 1693 was strange bc i didn't think it was a point that only applied to myko

I feel like you boiled it down to "I don't know who Myko wants to kill = Myko scum," which was only a part of my issue with the Myko slot. And even with that, it was less that he didn't have an answer, and more that I saw no evidence that he was in anyway trying to come up with one.

the dunn scumread when they were two of the more likely to be left behind (along with noraa). the scumread went away once that phase was over.

This isn't even true? I walked into the next phase still trying to kill Dunn. Until Dunn turned my read on him around.

the datisi townread. i think this read is p weakly supported and idk why he would be townreading datisi here. the progression is also questionable, with having him in null (and less towny than 6 other names) in 867, but in 2032 and 2042 he says that the strong townread came from the post sequence starting around 625, which is well before 867. the scum benefit is that he now strongly townreads dunn and so it's a read that he can more safely commit to making since he's likely not going to vote that pairing

I actually kinda get this one tbh, because my read on datisi was shifting without me really talking about it in thread, and largely without input from Datisi. He just wasn't the topic of discussion.

My scum leanings for Datisi during Day 1 were largely partner based with Dunn. I had him in his own category in that reads list in 867 because I thought that he was likely town if Dunn was town, and was more worried about him if Dunn was scum. Which put him as unsorted on his own.

But even as our exchange happened, I noticed feelings of deja vu

Which funny enough, is making me lean back towards you being town, because I feel like I typed up this exact message to you in that Tris game.

But in the moment, I decided to just focus on killing Dunn, and then coming back to sort Datisi afterwards.

Once I got some time between when I was originally so convinced that he was partnered with scum, and was looking back on that interaction, those similarities mattered more to me, and my read on Datisi started leaning town. Which was happening out the thread, and just more as I thought about it looking back, but this was why I didn't want Datisi and Dunn to be voted out together, and prefered for Dunn to die independently in 1337.

Then, once my read on Dunn changed to confidently town, the main reason I had become so worried about him day 1 went away too, and that shift in my thinking were happening while Datisi was not even in thread himself.

[Lukewarm]

I find a simple bit of irony in in the fact that the two people voting me, are:

Ginngie, who is trying to argue that I am completely unable to "continue to support my reads with the new content that is generated"
and
Fire, who concluded that "it's hard to criticize his reads and progressions, bc i think luke kind of player who as scum will be careful to make sure that they are all well-justified and supported through his play"

[Ginngie]

V/LA for the next 36 hours.

i have a civ marathon tournament and I need to sleep for that, and I'll need more sleep after it's over.

I'm most likely playing the Cree but might actually sneak a Mapuche game. Meta rn is to go for golden age pen brush and stroke, so so Mapuche's +10 combat against golden age civs would prove to be a huge boon.

[fireisredsir]

I find a simple bit of irony in in the fact that the two people voting me, are:

Ginngie, who is trying to argue that I am completely unable to "continue to support my reads with the new content that is generated"
and
Fire, who concluded that "it's hard to criticize his reads and progressions, bc i think luke kind of player who as scum will be careful to make sure that they are all well-justified and supported through his play"

yea i actually really didn't like ginngie's push on you or how that whole thing went down so that makes me a lil hesitant

[Malakittens]

Andante what changed your read on Fire. you were so convinced they were scum and it just "disappeareD"

[fireisredsir]

it didn't disappear. her most recent post:

My top SRs are myko/Luke/Datisi right now.. ama lets go, what do you want to know?

Why are you not currently voting for any of these names?

What happened to your fire scum read?

it's still there, I'm choosing to ignore it though, the pt has a lot of me quoting stuff fire says and telling ginggie I SR fire.... fun facts!!!

[Cephrir]

VOTE: Datasi
VOTE: Andante

strangely, i find myself approximately here

[Cephrir]

ok so ive been sus of lukewarm for a bit. i talked about this in the hood a little but not in the thread cause i wanted to watch and see how he started this phase, but some of his reads feel like they could be politically chosen. meaning that he is choosing reads based on what benefits him and then coming up with ways to justify them rather than a natural progression of reasons informing the reads. examples:

1) his scumread on myko. this was what triggered me to think this in the first place. i thought 1693 was strange bc i didn't think it was a point that only applied to myko, but he was using it as a reason to scumread him. i think when people are selective like that, usually they are either tunneled/confbiased, or they're being political in their read choices. since there is a clear benefit to luke to scumread myko, i feel like it could be a sign of it being political. the benefit is that this was before bell broke up the pairing, and enchant/myko was a pairing that was likely to gather some votes and probably the highest chance at being the lim. i think there is enough suspicion of luke/mala out there that scum luke would want to make sure he is positioned to vote the other pairing that will be gathering votes.

2) similarly, scumreading enchant and reinforcing that read by saying dunn's case was really good in 1611, and 1618. easier in hindsight but i said this before the enchant flip anyway, that i think the case was towny but not necessarily that convincing. same benefit as the myko suspicion.

3) once the myko/enchant pairing is no more, he has transitioned to andante/ginngie, which is probably the new likely pairing to be gathering a lot of votes. he's expressed suspicion there before, so it's not out of nowhere, but there is a clear benefit to him switching his focus there now

4) the dunn scumread when they were two of the more likely to be left behind (along with noraa). the scumread went away once that phase was over. benefit is obvious, but it is also understandable, since i had a similar progression on dunn

5) the datisi townread. i think this read is p weakly supported and idk why he would be townreading datisi here. the progression is also questionable, with having him in null (and less towny than 6 other names) in 867, but in 2032 and 2042 he says that the strong townread came from the post sequence starting around 625, which is well before 867. the scum benefit is that he now strongly townreads dunn and so it's a read that he can more safely commit to making since he's likely not going to vote that pairing


i know that is a lot of words for me to then say that i don't feel super strongly that this is scum, but... that's how it is. basically, it's hard to criticize his reads and progressions, bc i think luke is the kind of player who as scum will be careful to make sure that they are all well-justified and supported through his play. and a lot of these reads are ones that i agree with. so on one hand, i naturally want to see it as town. but on the other hand, i can see clear potential scum motivation behind the way that his reads are evolving and shifting and which ones he is choosing to focus on at what times, and it has come up enough that i think this is more likely to be scum luke. mala is also null at best so this is my preferred vote today

VOTE: Luke+mala

ah right this. i could consider being here too. wait, that's basically everywhere.

[Cephrir]

That's fine. I'm used to being the oddball out.

is that fine

shouldn't you be worried about it

[Cephrir]

idk it's 2 am bye

[mykonian]

Regarding some replies to the PT count post:

Also I really would hate to bring out meta but i swear to fucking god if we are going eith this bullshit that using PTs is only for scum. I’m posting my mastina and myself PT from one of my OG games and I’m literally posting the jjh927 and YUME warrior hood from the game i just hosted where it was just two town talking. God this is fucking asinine

Emotion is scummy but I can totally see how I'm the old fogey who's spoiling all the fun. Seems alright.

yeah i don't agree that pt usage is inherently anything. more of a personality tell. the content is a lot more relevant than the number of posts

Very reasonable, but I do so wish Cephrir would've expanded on the content then. This was a decent point to revisit whatever read there was on fire and see if there was something worrying going on in the hood or not. Could've told us!

re: myko's hood analysis, some useful info potentially is that i think i mostly encouraged ceph to post more. ive never danced before so idk standard strategy, but mostly i just thought it would be fun to use since we have it, and have been viewing it mostly as a tool to help us sort each other, since i often like to try to sort people based on 1 on 1 interactions. i specifically was looking for dance partners who i thought i could do this with. i think it's probably +town for ceph to not be super eager to use the hood? unless he is as scum just trying to be careful about not wanting to look like he's pocketing me since he would know that i would be watching out for that

Which fire then promptly does do. Town points, I guess.

[Bell]

VOTE: Datisi

[mykonian]

I complain how you are so smooth fire, and then you say the words that pour right into my heart and you make me go all woozy.


So I quote the five posts in a row where Luke defends Mala when I but dare to use Mala's name. His defense that I'm somehow misrepresenting is inane, I'm quoting Luke's entire posts, they were in short order. It was a massive overreaction to a pretty scattershot attack, for a player who by his own statement is null at best and potentially scum:

My read on Mala is Null at best. And when I try to slot together a team in my brain, she is regularly taking up that third slot.

These are not the posts you make about someone you might well suspect but don't know enough about yet.

vote Luke

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

VoteCount 1.1

Ginngie - Andante [2] - Lukewarm, Datisi,
Cephrir - FireisRedSir [0]
Dunnstral - Datisi [2] - Dunnstral, Bell
Lukewarm - Malakittens [3] - Ginngie, Fireisredsir, Mykonian
Bell - Mykonian[0] -

Not Voting [3]

- Andante, Cephrir, Malakittens

With 10 alive it takes 6 votes to execute

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2022-04-30 09:00:00)

[Lukewarm]

Dude, did you want me to go line by line on why your thing was a misrep?

Spoiler:

mala posting 6 posts is suspicious, but unconcerned by the 9 of Dunn, 8 from me, or the 18 from fire.

Like, it feels so arbitrary the conclusions that you are pulling from these numbers

This is defending Mala.

No, this was commenting that your system did not make sense to me, and your conclusions seemed arbitrary given the premise you started with.

Spoiler:

cool, ty. Fresh data!

Datisi: 4,
Dunntisi: 9?
Ginngie: 18
Andante: 20 since Ginngie joined
Myko: 0
Enchant: 1
Luke: 8
Mala: 6
Fireisred 18
cephrir 18

so I've done some neighbourhood games, and I imagine most of you have as well. At least Datisi is aware. I don't think posting reads in a PT is townie, and the times I was scum in a neighbourhood I loved doing it. There was one townie and you could just give them just enough reads that they could see where you were coming from and just enough opposition that they didn't think they were being played. Now, the moment one person starts posting reads there, the other follows, that's just natural. And I could see how some people who are already overflowing in the thread might transfer that to the PT because this game was boring.

Not to say I'm town for this. Enchant just isn't a great discussion partner for mafia, and we ended up discussing videogames and video game music.

I'm not bothered by Andante either. They are spinning their wheels clearly, the game just doesn't have enough input. For people thinking this is some scum ploy, https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88375 gives a view of Andante scum. Completely different. What we are seeing here is Andante going slightly mad with the game, not them being scum. Ginn however apparently exploded in that PT and does a bit to erode the townread I had on prism and ginn in general.

Not as worried by luke either. Esspecially yesterday he seemed a bit searching with his reads and I could see this transfer. Mala however, I tend to struggle to figure out where she exactly stands and this might be scum trying to influence Luke.

Datisi and dunnstral aren't that surprising to me. I could see that Dunn posts a bit more about reads when they were under pressure yesterday, and Dat would follow suit. Even given the awareness of Dat that the PT's are a bit of a minefield, this doesn't seem extraordinary to me.

Cephrir and Fire: That's a lot of posts, and the show Cephrir made of passing their reads on yesterday (were they that certain fire was town, otherwise they could just have done it in the main thread) doesn't sit right with me. Fire also has an amount beyond what I would think reasonable, but based on relative wordiness* (completely subjective) from this analysis I'd think it more likely that Cephrir was the scum of this partnership.

Just boring numbers, but: cephrir, ginngie, mala are people I need to pay more attention to. Which is annoying because by plain reads I'd go with fire, luke, mala, dat, roundabout in that order.

mala posting 6 posts is suspicious, but unconcerned by the 9 of Dunn, 8 from me, or the 18 from fire.

Like, it feels so arbitrary the conclusions that you are pulling from these numbers

Also, I feel like you did not get enough info to make any infrences?

Like, you decided that it made sense that I was talking based off of my play last phase, and you thought Mala was influencing me in that time. But actually, neither one of us used the pt at all during last phase. The last post made in the PT was from before the Ydra flip

This is only about Mala.

This was me providing information to the discussion that only I had which was directly contrary to the narrative that you made - I was highlighting that your conclusions were arbitraty because you did not actually ask any follow up questions to see if they made any sense.

Also, Mala kinda peetered out as well. The last couple posts were both me.

Explaining for Mala that you really didn't post that much in the thread.

I don't even know what you were saying here, because this was not even about Mala. Bell asked me why I did not use the hood more, and I said that Mala kinda stopped posting - the last two posts in a row were me. She left me on read the moment Ydra flipped.

I feel like I would have used it a lot more with a different dance partner tbh

"it'd be so natural to use the PT, it's not evidence"

Once again, this isn't about Mala - its about me. Because Bell has direct experience of me being in hoods with him (Shakespere and Web of Lies), and was asking me about my use of the hood.

What? Mala doesn't have more posts then me.

I'm saying that your points seem completely arbitrary and don't make sense to me. Both on the surface of looking at the numbers, nor at looking at what you are saying.

You concluded that you thought Mala might be trying to influence me, but she has completely ghosted that PT.

You concluded that Datisi making 4 posts about reads would be scummy, except for the fact that Dunn started. Which feels contrary to my expectations for both of those players. Datisi in particular, I would have expected to be very active about reads in the PT regardless of alignment - the 4 is fairly surprisingly low, and the only reason I don't find that particularly scummy is that he was away from the main thread as well due to real life.

You lead in the post by saying once one person starts posting, you would expect the other to "Now, the moment one person starts posting reads there, the other follows, that's just natural."

But when you see Cephrir and Fire being approximately equal, you don't seem to stop and wonder who started the exchange to ramp up to that number.

First thing on your mind? MALA. And then the comparison with Dunn, of course. And the comparison with Ceph and fire. But what's the thing you start with? Mala.

I led in with correcting the factually wrong statement that you made, when you said Mala had more post then me. Yes, I correct factually wrong statements

Like, you are framing me:
-Trying to make sense of your posts / pointing out the arbitrary nature of them
-Providing information about our hood that no one else has, because it seemed relevant to the conclusions you were drawing
-Me answering Bell's questions about why I had so few posts in the hood.
-Me correcting a factually incorrect statement that you made


As me defending Mala.

[Lukewarm]

Fixing spoiler tags

Dude, did you want me to go line by line on why your thing was a misrep?

Spoiler:

mala posting 6 posts is suspicious, but unconcerned by the 9 of Dunn, 8 from me, or the 18 from fire.

Like, it feels so arbitrary the conclusions that you are pulling from these numbers

This is defending Mala.

No, this was commenting that your system did not make sense to me, and your conclusions seemed arbitrary given the premise you started with.

Spoiler:

cool, ty. Fresh data!

Datisi: 4,
Dunntisi: 9?
Ginngie: 18
Andante: 20 since Ginngie joined
Myko: 0
Enchant: 1
Luke: 8
Mala: 6
Fireisred 18
cephrir 18

so I've done some neighbourhood games, and I imagine most of you have as well. At least Datisi is aware. I don't think posting reads in a PT is townie, and the times I was scum in a neighbourhood I loved doing it. There was one townie and you could just give them just enough reads that they could see where you were coming from and just enough opposition that they didn't think they were being played. Now, the moment one person starts posting reads there, the other follows, that's just natural. And I could see how some people who are already overflowing in the thread might transfer that to the PT because this game was boring.

Not to say I'm town for this. Enchant just isn't a great discussion partner for mafia, and we ended up discussing videogames and video game music.

I'm not bothered by Andante either. They are spinning their wheels clearly, the game just doesn't have enough input. For people thinking this is some scum ploy, https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88375 gives a view of Andante scum. Completely different. What we are seeing here is Andante going slightly mad with the game, not them being scum. Ginn however apparently exploded in that PT and does a bit to erode the townread I had on prism and ginn in general.

Not as worried by luke either. Esspecially yesterday he seemed a bit searching with his reads and I could see this transfer. Mala however, I tend to struggle to figure out where she exactly stands and this might be scum trying to influence Luke.

Datisi and dunnstral aren't that surprising to me. I could see that Dunn posts a bit more about reads when they were under pressure yesterday, and Dat would follow suit. Even given the awareness of Dat that the PT's are a bit of a minefield, this doesn't seem extraordinary to me.

Cephrir and Fire: That's a lot of posts, and the show Cephrir made of passing their reads on yesterday (were they that certain fire was town, otherwise they could just have done it in the main thread) doesn't sit right with me. Fire also has an amount beyond what I would think reasonable, but based on relative wordiness* (completely subjective) from this analysis I'd think it more likely that Cephrir was the scum of this partnership.

Just boring numbers, but: cephrir, ginngie, mala are people I need to pay more attention to. Which is annoying because by plain reads I'd go with fire, luke, mala, dat, roundabout in that order.[/spo/iler]

mala posting 6 posts is suspicious, but unconcerned by the 9 of Dunn, 8 from me, or the 18 from fire.

Like, it feels so arbitrary the conclusions that you are pulling from these numbers

Also, I feel like you did not get enough info to make any infrences?

Like, you decided that it made sense that I was talking based off of my play last phase, and you thought Mala was influencing me in that time. But actually, neither one of us used the pt at all during last phase. The last post made in the PT was from before the Ydra flip

This is only about Mala.

This was me providing information to the discussion that only I had which was directly contrary to the narrative that you made - I was highlighting that your conclusions were arbitraty because you did not actually ask any follow up questions to see if they made any sense.

Also, Mala kinda peetered out as well. The last couple posts were both me.

Explaining for Mala that you really didn't post that much in the thread.

I don't even know what you were saying here, because this was not even about Mala. Bell asked me why I did not use the hood more, and I said that Mala kinda stopped posting - the last two posts in a row were me. She left me on read the moment Ydra flipped.

I feel like I would have used it a lot more with a different dance partner tbh

"it'd be so natural to use the PT, it's not evidence"

Once again, this isn't about Mala - its about me. Because Bell has direct experience of me being in hoods with him (Shakespere and Web of Lies), and was asking me about my use of the hood.

What? Mala doesn't have more posts then me.

I'm saying that your points seem completely arbitrary and don't make sense to me. Both on the surface of looking at the numbers, nor at looking at what you are saying.

You concluded that you thought Mala might be trying to influence me, but she has completely ghosted that PT.

You concluded that Datisi making 4 posts about reads would be scummy, except for the fact that Dunn started. Which feels contrary to my expectations for both of those players. Datisi in particular, I would have expected to be very active about reads in the PT regardless of alignment - the 4 is fairly surprisingly low, and the only reason I don't find that particularly scummy is that he was away from the main thread as well due to real life.

You lead in the post by saying once one person starts posting, you would expect the other to "Now, the moment one person starts posting reads there, the other follows, that's just natural."

But when you see Cephrir and Fire being approximately equal, you don't seem to stop and wonder who started the exchange to ramp up to that number.

First thing on your mind? MALA. And then the comparison with Dunn, of course. And the comparison with Ceph and fire. But what's the thing you start with? Mala.

I led in with correcting the factually wrong statement that you made, when you said Mala had more post then me. Yes, I correct factually wrong statements

Like, you are framing me:
-Trying to make sense of your posts / pointing out the arbitrary nature of them
-Providing information about our hood that no one else has, because it seemed relevant to the conclusions you were drawing
-Me answering Bell's questions about why I had so few posts in the hood.
-Me correcting a factually incorrect statement that you made


As me defending Mala.[/quote]

[Lukewarm]

Like, you are framing me:
-Trying to make sense of your posts / pointing out the arbitrary nature of them
-Providing information about our hood that no one else has, because it seemed relevant to the conclusions you were drawing
-Me answering Bell's questions about why I had so few posts in the hood.
-Me correcting a factually incorrect statement that you made


As me defending Mala.

And yes. I am going to do all of these things regardless of my read on Mala

[Lukewarm]

Speaking of which, I am almost certain that Mala is scum now. After not using our PT for a while, she suddenly started posting in there again. Quite specifically trying to talk me out of voting for andante/ginngie, and trying to get me to shift to voting Datisi/Dunn. As such, I don't see the need to keep defending myself, and we can be voted out

VOTE: Luke/Mala

If Mala flips scum, always kill Andante/Ginngie next - and never flip datisi/Dunn.

It was done in such a way that I am less clear which of Andante/Ginngie would be Mala's partner, so it should be the full pair that is flipped, and not done via dance partner trading imo.

Myko's posts have been heavy misreps, and I would like for the next person who needs a new dance partner to take his spot with Bell.

Thanks

[Lukewarm]

It was done in such a way that I am less clear which of Andante/Ginngie would be Mala's partner, so it should be the full pair that is flipped, and not done via dance partner trading imo.

If I had to guess based on the PT, I would say Andante - There was an angle that I can picture building up to letting the next person pair with andante, and still killing Ginngie. That was not explicit, but I could see it.

This would sit with the fact that Ginngie has been actively trying vote me out, while Andante has called me scummy, apparently agreed with Ginngies points, but isn't voting with Ginngie (because doing so now, would also kill Mala)

[Bell]

Wait so are you leaving the dance