Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[butterchurn]

The scum are trapped like rats in a bucket I love it

Who are you referring to here?

[Tracer Bullet]

The scum are trapped like rats in a bucket I love it

Who are you referring to here?

they know who they are

[butterchurn]

I would like to know who you think they are.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I feel like i'm watching the same person have an inner battle with themselves.

[cassowary]

For the most part the reasoning for the people voting for me is extremely flimsy. I have an opinion or two, another player with good reason questions the opinion, I don't get all huffy puffy with them like some people do when they're questioned, and all of a sudden I'm backpedaling somehow? This is more of a case of people trying to push me in to a corner just for having an opinion and then trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, or as some would call it, voting for LHF. Why not focus on those that are not actually contributing to the game or are doing something actually scummy?

Idk, this response seems kinda huffy puffy to me :p

It's not a crime to be convinced by someone else's argument and go 'oh that's a good point' but it's weird to say stuff like you have a reason and then immediately backtrack on it when called out. People aren't pushing you into a corner for having an opinion, they're pushing you into a corner for pushing weird things and then not standing by them when people question it. Esp because you're not going "oh that's a good point that I didn't consider" you're going "oh I didn't expect anyone to take the initial thing I said seriously" which is a weird thing to expect imo

[Sword of Ducks]

Alright, school's over, what'd I miss?

[MonkeyMan576]

It's not that I don't expect to be taken seriously. It's that miscalculations about players are far more likely to happen on day one than later on in the game. It doesn't make me scummy that I thought a player was less active than they were.

[The Keeper]

I feel like i'm watching the same person have an inner battle with themselves.

Need a Popcorn Buddy?
Internal battles are usually amusing to watch...

Alright, school's over, what'd I miss?

Damocles Sword looks like it's about to land on you.

It's not that I don't expect to be taken seriously. It's that miscalculations about players are far more likely to happen on day one than later on in the game. It doesn't make me scummy that I thought a player was less active than they were.

[cassowary]

Alright, school's over, what'd I miss?

What if, instead of asking this, you read over what was posted since you

last

asked this, and then told us what you thought about it?

[Nashville Dreams]

@Monkey, Can you explain the reads on Well Done, MalcolmTucker and SwordsofDucks?

Well Done - active an engaged, agree with their posts for the most part.

MalcomTrucker - Not really active, but their posts seem like they are trying to sort a little.

SwordofDucks - low content posting.

What do you specifically agree with Well Done on?
Where is Malcolm trying to sort?
If SoD's "low content posting" was a problem, why didn't you support my push prior to being FoSed?

[Nashville Dreams]

Alright, school's over, what'd I miss?

What if, instead of asking this, you read over what was posted since you

last

asked this, and then told us what you thought about it?

He's not going to.

[Sword of Ducks]

Alright, school's over, what'd I miss?

What if, instead of asking this, you read over what was posted since you

last

asked this, and then told us what you thought about it?

He's not going to.

The general consensus is to vote me because I'm inactive, which is okay. I have PSSAs and can't play the 'catch-up' game when I'm in a room for two hours with no access to my phone to keep track of you people.

[Sword of Ducks]

I could actually consider a SoD wagon.

This is who started it.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Sword of ducks do you have any interesting town or scumreads?

[Sword of Ducks]

Sword of ducks do you have any interesting town or scumreads?

Maybe monkey leaning scum / indie because why would I be a topic to bring up when there are 22 more active players to bring up? You see why I think this?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I don’t think it’s inherently scummy to bring up someone for having low content. It is a really lazy read though.
How about townreads?

[Sword of Ducks]

I don’t think it’s inherently scummy to bring up someone for having low content. It is a really lazy read though.
How about townreads?

Townreads I'm not so sure at this point.

[Sword of Ducks]

By day two I estimate I'll be much more able to keep track of any and all shenanigans that happen here, even if they don't have a real effect on the game. Right now? Not enough time.

Anyway I found something interesting, so I'll be out for a bit. Let's see what happens while I'm gone.

[bnuuy]

I would like to know who you think they are.

why?
I find it kinda sus you are reacting this way

[NorwegianboyEE]

I was gonna vote Mena just now, but then i felt like that’s what i always end up doing and they are usually just town and we both shade each other for no good reason so ima step back from that and see if something clicks for me about their allignment later on.

[Well Done]

This is more of me echoing Well Done's concern that the mod might not put a beloved princess in to be randomized in this setup

That is not our stance

We said that we have doubts whether a beloved princess would be aligned with the mafia/werewolf factions

My belief is that in general mastina does not fake claim, regardless of alignment, except for in extreme circumstances. They claimed beloved princess? That's their real role. Now figure out their alignment. We are against eliminating the beloved princess.

[Well Done]

dunn, you continue to astonish me with the amount of effort you put in, time and time again, to not understanding my play

This post very much feels like a deflection. Convenient way to ignore the point being made.

It is a deflection, and it is wrong. Luke wrote out that post, and even if he didn't, there is no basis behind what Menalque is saying regarding Dunn putting in effort to not understand their play. They have been trying to downplay our slot ever since we started to push them, and it looks to be out of self preservation.

[Nashville Dreams]

Just checking in for the day, but Martina’s post legit have me the heebies. Then again the last two games I played with her she rolled scum and it’s similar openings. I just don’t trust her so I’ll be watching that slot like a hawk.

I also skimmed — I like Butterchurns post, hate monkeymans

(Now I’m going to get some well deserved sleep after 7 straight work shifts)

[Well Done]

My belief is that in general mastina does not fake claim, regardless of alignment, except for in extreme circumstances. They claimed beloved princess? That's their real role. Now figure out their alignment. We are against eliminating the beloved princess.

Source:

Spoiler:

Mastina could still be fakeclaiming

Due to a CERTAIN rule change that I VEHEMENTLY disagree with, I cannot really respond to this without getting banned as I am probably already dangerously close but fucked if I know where the line on that rule is precisely, it's a fucking bullshit rule change and the sheer ambiguity present in how fucking hard it is to know where the line is in what I can and can't say is proof of why it's a shitty ass rule which yes, does in fact punish neurodivergent folk on mafiascum (more on that below), so let's just say that I am attempting to remain within the rule and if I am not actually within the rule, that's proof of why the rule is so bullshit because this is literally

me trying to follow the rule

while still

playing the game

.

But let's just say: I have some VERY strong words to say about that rule change; check out what I have to say there and think about how likely it is that I am to fakeclaim as scum.

That said, without linking to MD (where I can probably track down other MD posts beyond/before the rule change if I cared to for the record), and in trying to fit to the spirit of the rule in spite of how fucking bullshit the rule is, let me attempt to word this in a way that is within the rule and is entirely 100% specific to this game:

There is a reason in

this game

that I would not fakeclaim as scum.

What reason is that?

It's called "I have an anxiety disorder".
Now, if you want to disbelieve me on the above,
One, you're an asshole, because you should never fucking disbelieve someone when they say they have a disorder like that, and two, I can pretty damn easily prove that I do in fact have an anxiety disorder.

But since I am going to

assume

you are not an asshole, I am going to assume you do in fact believe me when I say I have a pretty damn bad/severe anxiety disorder.
So...What does that mean?

Well let me tell you what it means.

It means I am neurotic and borderline paranoid.

So what does that mean in a mafia game precisely?

Well let me give you some background on what anxiety does to someone.
When I was driving my car, I got a "what if I am in a crash and I shatter my knee?" thought. Anxiety.
"What if I suffer from a heart attack?" thought. Anxiety.
"What if a bear or cougar mauls me on the way to my car" while it's dark. Anxiety.
"What if I lose my job from having done something wrong?". Anxiety.
"What if this condition I can see/feel/etc. is something actually severe?" Anxiety.
I have borderline crippling anxiety, and the above are daily examples of how it manifests.

So now! Let's translate what that very same anxiety does to me in a

mafia

context.
And I mean that both in the sense of mafia game, and in the case for showing why I would not be fakeclaiming in this specific game, a mafia

alignment

!

Do you know how I think when I am scum?
Well in the context of this game, I can tell you what would happen for the idea of fakeclaiming being infected by the mold:
"What if there is a mold tracker role that can track players who have mold? If such a role exists and I fakeclaim, I could be caught by it!"
"What if there is a mold detector role that can detect mold on a player they target? If such a role exists and I fakeclaim, I could be caught by it!"
"What if there is a role that can detect things like [poisoned] [infected] etc. and they target me? If such a role exists and I fakeclaim, they wouldn't see the mold!"
"What if I need to use the mold every single night in order to use the role properly? What if not using the mold for a night literally costs us the game from having not used it?"
Depending on what the mold actually

does

, there might also be something akin to "What if the mold triggers and I am not impacted the way the players with the mold are?".
Depending on how the mold infects people (say for instance it could spread based on night actions), there might also be something akin to "What if someone targets me and then doesn't get infected by mold? Wouldn't that out me as a liar?"

I'm probably missing two or three more that come to mind.

You may insist.
"No human being could actually think that way!"
"Those thoughts are ridiculous!"
"Those thoughts are clearly absurd."
"Those thoughts are so improbable as to be borderline impossible."
And similar.

But if so?

If anything like that enters your mind?

You don't fucking know how anxiety works

in my brain

.

Because that is

precisely

how it works.

Yes, those thoughts are paranoia.
Yes, those thoughts are ridiculously unlikely.
Yes, those thoughts are neurotic, even deranged.

But that is how scumastina thinks. She fears so much as a 1%.
If there is a 1% chance of being caught in a lie, it means my anxiety will cause me to fear that possibility being real, and the thought then consumes my mind. It's an idea, it grows like a disease, and consumes me. The 1% grows to a 50+% in my mind. So the things that might be safe to do in practice become borderline suicide in my mind.

If the site mods want to ban me for having just described to you how my anxiety works, then by god I'm going to say something I never thought I would say and say that I will join Nancy Drew in saying that the site staff literally

is

discriminating against Neurodivergent folks.

Because guess what? Anxiety + Autism is why I am a wallposter. I'm obsessed with explaining my thoughts to perfection, thus, cannot be succinct.

I can no less get over a fear of fakeclaiming than I can be succinct. Them banning me for a fear of fakeclaiming as scum would literally be equivalent to them banning me for not being succinct. I'm dead serious in that comparison. It would be banning me for something that is

a fundamental immutable unchangeable aspect of myself

.

So I do truly hope that this is within their new bullshit rule, and also a sufficient answer to your statement.

Spoiler:

Subject: Mafia Rule Updates Discussion Thread

That said, I do in fact take issue with the trust tell part.

I don't fakeclaim as scum, and I say that every game, but that is not a policy I enforce because it is a policy--it is a policy I "enforce" because in literally every single game I play as scum, telling the truth is better than lying. Like, lying about my role would literally be playing against my wincon as scum; telling the truth about my role is genuinely me playing to my wincon.

This policy if I were to be punished for having it by the site rules would mean that you'd be requiring me to

literally gamethrow as scum

in order to not run afoul of it.

Sure, if a mod ran a game where I had a genuine need to fakeclaim (say that it's explicitly a role madness game with no VTs and I get an explicitly scum role that cannot be claimed as a town role), I would as scum lie about my role because in that scenario, truthfully claiming would be playing against my wincon.

But if a mod gives me a role that I can truthfully claim, then not claiming it is genuinely gamethrowing because the role as-is looks town enough to not be a scum role. (And if the role cannot be truthfully claimed, then it can be slightly modified. Roleblocker into Jailkeeper; turning a Disloyal scum role into a claim of being a Loyal town role. And if the role cannot be modified into a town role, then I can just claim VT.)

I say in every game that I do not fakeclaim as scum--but it's not because I refuse to. It's because it's genuinely gamethrowing for me to fakeclaim when the truth is literally my best weapon as scum.

Imo, trust tells typically are something that are, explicitly, designed to gain an advantage

as town

, while

at the detriment

to your scumgame.

If you are playing to your SCUM win condition, then it fundamentally cannot be a trust tell because it is fundamentally not to the detriment of your scumgame because it is not designed to gamethrow as scum to give an advantage to the town.

But this policy seems alarmingly like it is going to prevent me from playing to my scum wincon by stating that I don't fakeclaim.

Spoiler:

Subject: Mafia Rule Updates Discussion Thread

That said, I do in fact take issue with the trust tell part.

I don't fakeclaim as scum, and I say that every game, but that is not a policy I enforce because it is a policy--it is a policy I "enforce" because in literally every single game I play as scum, telling the truth is better than lying. Like, lying about my role would literally be playing against my wincon as scum; telling the truth about my role is genuinely me playing to my wincon.

This policy if I were to be punished for having it by the site rules would mean that you'd be requiring me to

literally gamethrow as scum

in order to not run afoul of it.

Sure, if a mod ran a game where I had a genuine need to fakeclaim (say that it's explicitly a role madness game with no VTs and I get an explicitly scum role that cannot be claimed as a town role), I would as scum lie about my role because in that scenario, truthfully claiming would be playing against my wincon.

But if a mod gives me a role that I can truthfully claim, then not claiming it is genuinely gamethrowing because the role as-is looks town enough to not be a scum role. (And if the role cannot be truthfully claimed, then it can be slightly modified. Roleblocker into Jailkeeper; turning a Disloyal scum role into a claim of being a Loyal town role. And if the role cannot be modified into a town role, then I can just claim VT.)

I say in every game that I do not fakeclaim as scum--but it's not because I refuse to. It's because it's genuinely gamethrowing for me to fakeclaim when the truth is literally my best weapon as scum.

Imo, trust tells typically are something that are, explicitly, designed to gain an advantage

as town

, while

at the detriment

to your scumgame.

If you are playing to your SCUM win condition, then it fundamentally cannot be a trust tell because it is fundamentally not to the detriment of your scumgame because it is not designed to gamethrow as scum to give an advantage to the town.

But this policy seems alarmingly like it is going to prevent me from playing to my scum wincon by stating that I don't fakeclaim.

A perfect example of this is the recently completed subreddit uPick.

In that game, I pointed out that

in three years

, I'd never been active as scum before.
If I was town, then by the revised rules that'd be considered a trust tell.
Because it was pointing out a truthful thing about my play that has a long long history of having been true.

As town, in the last three years, I've been rather passionate and incredibly invested in my towngames;
As scum, in the last three years, I've had fuckall of anything done--but not because of any deliberate effort.
It's just that I was struggling in those scumgames and not struggling in those towngames. But it was still a very very very strong trend, lasting over the course of MULTIPLE years.

I

couldn't

effort as scum. It wasn't a choice to not effort. I literally tried, but failed, every single time as scum. I could no more effort as scum than I could be succinct. In that it was literally just...part of me. I fundamentally was unable to be efforting as scum. But could effort easily as town.

I pointed that out in subreddit uPick, in order to try and dissuade the town from eliminating me, by pointing out that trend.

...But instead of being town, I was in fact actually scum and that scumgame just so happened to be the first game in over three years where I broke the trend.

Would I be punished for pointing out a trend that was out of my control, even if in the current game it was breaking the trend?

And similarly, for not lying, the only lie I told about my role that game was a lie of omission. I left out the redirect aspect of my role but otherwise claimed it fully. This was, explicitly, playing to my win condition: hiding a scum aspect to my role, but claiming the town aspect of it in a game where

the mods literally said every role started as town

. The mods literally said in the signups for the game that every role was designed initially as town, then refined based on alignment. So me saying my town role aspect but leaving out the scum aspect was playing to my wincon, but it was still 100% truthful, maintaining my "never lie about my role as scum" policy, unless you count a lie by omission (which imo does not count as a true lie).

Trust telling is something that imo is done to gain an advantage specifically as one alignment, to the detriment of the other alignment.
E.g. "I always self-hammer as scum" would be to the detriment of scumgame to gain an advantage as town. (The classic trust tell.) Stating "I am town" in red text as town but not as scum as another.

But when the rules are punishing a

playstyle

which affects me

regardless of my alignment

, I feel like that's an issue.

If it is not to the detriment of one alignment, why should it be punished? If it is universal in how it impacts your games, omnipresent regardless of your alignment and you constantly point out "this could be broken any time", "it COULD be broken this game, but...", "it's not something I control, but it still happens", etc., and yet you are still playing to your wincon

in that game

by doing it and not playing to future games' wincons? That feels dangerously restrictive.

I don't fakeclaim as scum is a perfect example of that. I don't fakeclaim because I fucking suck at lying/bullshitting roles so when I have no need to fakeclaim (which is 99.99% of all my scumgames), I just don't. It

can

benefit both alignments. (Not fakeclaiming as scum->fakeclaimed as town->likely to be seen as town; Not fakeclaiming as scum->claim is likely truthful->not scum bullshitting in spite of still being scum.) But it's not designed to.

As the post said, if you believe that bussing was genuinely against your wincon, then saying such shouldn't be prohibited because it can still work to your favor as either alignment. (If a player who doesn't bus generally decides that, actually, in this game, it wasn't playing against wincon? Then bam, bingo, scum benefit.)

Basically, absolutes which aren't absolute but just hold true in 99.99% of games due to the situation applying in 99.99% of games are, imo, not trust tells.

Games are situational. Every single time, every single game, the situation is different. If 99/100 situations end up with the same optimal outcome, why is it a trust tell to point out the optimal action/outcome in those 99/100 times? If 99/100 situations end up with the same optimal outcome, why can't you point out the 99/100 in the 1/100 situation? It feels incredibly limiting in an unhealthy way.

Spoiler:

Subject: Mafia Rule Updates Discussion Thread

mastina,
This is a formal warning regarding the following infractions:

• This post in (removed) which contains a trust tell. Speaking of your own meta in absolutes and implying that you have never/would never break that meta constitutes a trust tell - you are implying this holds true across all games which has an unfair element of truth to it outside the realm of the game. Again, trust tells can harm the game's integrity when a slot is able to use self-meta in a way that confirms something about the slot when it shouldn't be able to, providing an in-game advantage that slots without such tells would not be able to replicate. This is against the rules regardless of whether your statement is actually true in this game, and regardless of whether the alignment of your trust tell is the same as your current alignment. Trust tells are also further described in the announcement thread on OGI.

While both of the above types of out-of-game influence have been clarified in our recent announcement thread, trust tells have always constituted out-of-game influence and out-of-game influence has always been against the rules. Please note that any further infractions related to game integrity may lead to escalated action from the Listmod team, including restrictions on playing mafia. Feel free to reach out to a Listmod with any questions.

- the Listmod team

I stated why this is bullshit already but let me once again state why the rule is bullshit:

solution to never being accused of trust telling: have a scum meta of being absolutely willing to break any and all tells you might have exclusive to you as town, and to do anything as town.

I mean that IS my scumplay.

I SAY "I never fakeclaim as scum", but actually, I have. It's just so rare that it's easier and simpler to say "I never fakeclaim as scum" rather than "fakeclaiming would be against a scum wincon for me here, just like it would be against a scum wincon in 99% of my games because fakeclaiming as scum is almost always the wrong move as scum when a truthful claim is more likely to believed and unable to be caught as a lie".

The former is now considered a trusttell even though the latter is the more accurate version and would weirdly enough not be one. The former is shorthand for the latter but the mods are banning the former and yet not the latter.

I SAY "If I'm posting, I'm town; if I'm not posting, I'm scum", but actually, I've been quite active as scum. It's just that in the last three years, 99% of my active games have been town games and 75% of my inactive games have been scumgames.

I am willing to break any towntell I have as scum. And I do, when the situation calls for it. But the situation calls for it very rarely; it wouldn't be a towntell if it was optimal scumplay every single scumgame.

I think the new rule is a bad change.

To address mastina's never-fakeclaiming-as-scum tell specifically, and why we believe it is an example that's over the line: it is a tell with a long history across a huge number of games, that it is claimed will, at least in some sense, never be broken. It is very centralizing because it is brought up so frequently. It is typically framed (or we've seen it framed) as intentionally avoiding certain options, rather than an incidental observation about how you play the game. It is typically framed as "I will never do this". Ultimately, we've looked at examples of it happening and we believe that on net, over time, it is harmful to game integrity. Avoiding these aspects of it (i.e. not framing it in this way, essentially treating it as an incidental aspect of the way you play the game that has no guarantee of categorically being true) would significantly lower the negative impact on game integrity that we believe it has.

The reason this is bullshit is because in basically every game, fakeclaiming is genuinely against a scum wincon.

Don't believe me?

Well let's break down almost every scumgame I've ever played and why I didn't fakeclaim--or in a couple of rare cases, why I did.

The "why I did" is just as important here--it shows proof that I have in fact fakeclaimed before in spite of me saying "I don't fakeclaim as scum".
I believe this was a fakeclaim? Game was too long ago for me to remember but I believe it was not a real claim given I flipped Mafia Cop? (I'd need to figure out how to access the scum QT to tell for sure.) So in one of my very first scumgames, I

did

fakeclaim.

On the note of early scumplays, one of my very first scumgames onsite involved a fakeclaim of being a cop in a semi-open setup.

In this game I fakeclaimed cop as the last scum in my faction counterclaiming an actual cop. In the history of fakeclaims, this is pretty much the worst possible fakeclaim you could ever make. This was also a game that I double-bussed my scumteam...in multiball.

THIS WAS THE GAME THAT TAUGHT ME THE POLICY OF WHY FAKECLAIMING AS SCUM IS SO BAD

. When you make a fakeclaim

that

atrocious, you learn to

never do it again

.

Granted, after the cop flipped, I did end up truthfully claiming my real role of doctor, but only after the damage had been done from the botched fakeclaim.

That was augmented by this game, where my scumbuddy stole my safeclaim leaving me with no safeclaim, necessitating a fakeclaim from me--one which did not work. Because how could it? It was a fakeclaim. It wasn't what the mod provided me. I didn't have a mod-provided safeclaim because my scumbuddy who was already dead had used said safeclaim as their own. Without a fakeclaim of my own, I had to fake it and guess what?

Fakeclaiming didn't work

.

If fakeclaiming has a proven record of NOT WINNING ME SCUM GAMES, then why the fuck would I fakeclaim as scum?

In this game, I actually DID fakeclaim. This is

the

game I mention when I mention that I

have

fakeclaimed because it is the epitome of the one and only circumstance where fakeclaiming is the right choice: when it is necessary for you to live, you can make an educated guess, you can slot your role into the town roles without it being a scumclaim, there's a decent chance you do not get caught, and in the scenario where you do, you out a TPR for your scumteam to then kill.

For a fakeclaim to not be gamethrowing, it needs to hit all of those criteria. Why fakeclaim when you can live with a VT claim? A fakeclaim needs to have a purpose, where without it, you die. Why fakeclaim when you have no information? Fakeclaiming when there is danger of being caught is absolutely a terrible idea. Why fakeclaim when you have nothing you want to get out of the town from your claim? If you're not going to get a TPR to out themselves to take you down, and you go down without the TPR having done so, the fakeclaim was the wrong move.

It is the golden standard that every scumgame of mine would need to fit--

And literally every scumgame since then has

failed

to meet those criteria.

In this game, I was a Godfather. As a Godfather, you are

meant

to claim VT. You are meant to draw a Cop investigation, so you claim VT. You don't fakeclaim as a Godfather because you want to be playing in a way to bait a Cop investigation. So, the

optimal play

was to

not

fakeclaim. Literally would have been gamethrowing to have fakeclaimed.

In this game, there was a cop I believe with a guilty on me? (I don't remember exactly.) So I did fakeclaim there, counterclaiming the cop, as an example of me having fakeclaimed that I forgot about, this one done as a desperate one out of necessity where not fakeclaiming would have been gamethrowing. (Now obviously, didn't work out.) There was no way to avoid fakeclaiming, so fakeclaiming was genuinely playing to my win condition, so I did.

I only fakeclaim when doing so would be playing to my scum win condition.

At any other time, doing so would be against my wincon.

In this game, I did fakeclaim because I wasn't sure if trueclaiming or fakeclaiming was the right move. As it turns out?

Trueclaiming was the right move

. But I lost the 50/50 because I chose to fakeclaim and as a consequence, got outted as a confirmed liar.

The risk of being outed as a confirmed liar is one of the BIG fucking reasons I don't fakeclaim as scum.

If there is a risk of being outed as a liar as scum, then fakeclaiming is, as shown by the above game, genuinely playing against your win condition, when telling the truth would have won you the game (or at least done you more good).

In this game, I did 50/50. I claimed my real role, but lied about my target. This post summarizes my stance on not fakeclaiming as scum, and it was that game which further solidified why I do not.

In this game, I technically also fakeclaimed although I was inheriting the fakeclaim of my slot's predecessor (Titus had already claimed by the time I replaced in, just not publicly).

In this game, my role was one that I needed to be truthful about. Given that I was giving out inventions, it's something I

couldn't

lie about. It was literally IMPOSSIBLE for me to lie that game. I HAD to tell the truth; not telling the truth would have been gamethrowing. So, a lack of fakeclaiming as scum was playing to my wincon because telling the truth is genuinely the only thing I COULD do.

In this game, I claimed my mod-provided safeclaim. Now, granted. My mod-provided safeclaim was not quite my real role. But it was

moderator-provided

. When the MODERATOR provides a SAFEclaim, that means as scum it is SAFE to claim that role and have it not out you as scum. That means that there is no need to fakeclaim because the moderator provided a mod-given safeclaim. And it was a good safeclaim, too. Claiming anything else would have been gamethrowing.

In this game, I claimed my mod-provided safeclaim. It might've been slightly modified, I don't quite remember the details, I discussed it with a scumbuddy the entire night to make sure it was good enough, but it was still mod-provided as a safeclaim. It was not a fakeclaim. Because there is a tangible difference between 'safeclaim' and 'fakeclaim'. A

safe

claim is a moderator-provided claim given to scum that is safe to claim without it being a scumclaim. A

fake

claim is a scum-designed claim that the scum make on their own without (or with minimal) input from the mod. This was the former, not the latter, but the presence of a safeclaim invalidates the need for a fakeclaim.

In this game, I actually

did

fakeclaim, as a scum traitor...
...And for my troubles? My scumteam SHOT me for my fakeclaim. I did genuinely believe that, as a traitor, fakeclaiming was playing to the scum wincon, but you can clearly tell by how the game went why fakeclaiming did not work,

yet again

reinforcing my policy for why fakeclaiming is bad as scum.

In this game, half of my role I

couldn't

hide (using the double vote was public), and the other half of my role was advantageous to claim. Fakeclaiming would have been gamethrowing especially given the setup in that game so not fakeclaiming was the best move.

In this game, I realclaimed my role, and realclaimed the circumstances. The moderator genuinely

did

forget to send me my results at daystart (I have the PMs to prove it); every time I asked the mod questions, I told the truth about that in the thread (I have the PMs to prove it); every answer I got back from the mod was truthful and I have the PMs to prove it.

So telling the truth about all of that was playing to my wincon.

But I actually

did

tell a lie which counts as a fakeclaim of sorts. A Loyal Tracker targeted me the night before, so I lied about the results of my role to indicate that I was redirected--this was a necessity to prevent the guilty on me from being an actual guilty. It was a situation where I was telling

mostly

the truth, with a

necessary

lie. But the truth was NECESSARY for the lie to work. Without the truth, the lie would have been obviously a lie. So both telling the truth,

and

telling the lie, were necessary to be playing to my wincon. Purely telling the truth, or completely bullshitting, both would have been playing against my wincon; it was only the 98% truth with a 2% lie that made it work.

Which again adds fuel to the fire. Had I been fakeclaiming, that would not have worked. I

could not

have won that game without telling almost entirely the truth.

In this game, I needed to tell the truth about my role in order to ensure I was the D1 elimination. Pine (our scum mastermind) correctly deduced that my role was worthless to the scumteam (and thus, expendable), and the counterwagon to me was a far far far more useful scum role that we actually needed. So telling the truth rather than fakeclaiming was me playing to my wincon because the scum needed to sacc me in order to save the scum PR. Fakeclaiming would have been playing against my wincon because it'd have resulted in the far stronger scum PR being eliminated instead of me.

In this game, I couldn't fakeclaim because the game's mechanics were literally you having a past role of a past game. That meant I could only claim past town roles of mine. None of which would have fit for the game.

In this game, it was literally impossible for me to fakeclaim. My Hated status was something that needed to be claimed by necessity. And the only way to use my role was to use it publicly. I

couldn't

fakeclaim. I

couldn't

lie about my role--it was LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE. So there was no possible way for me to fakeclaim, forcing a truthful claim.

In this game, I claimed a modified version of the scum mechanic. It was both a realclaim, and a fakeclaim. I did as scum have something

similar

, but I actually DID lie. I claimed that I had empowered the slot that (unbeknownst to the town) was empowered by the dead-town. So this is another example of a game where I both did, and did not, fakeclaim. It was equal parts true, and not true. It was equal parts real, and bullshit. Genuinely 50/50 on each. And that was the correct move. A pure bullshit claim with zero truth to it would have not given me anything; a purely truthful claim would've been gamethrowing as skitter knew from mod info what the scum's mechanic was and we knew she did.

In this game, I claimed ascetic because I genuinely was afraid not doing so was a scumclaim. Realclaiming was something that I thought would be playing to my wincon there because if I didn't claim it, then I could be caught and made confscum. Now, granted. I left out the Informed part, because that was a pure scum info that I saw no reason to divulge. So you can say that I lied by omission, but that's about it. Not claiming ascetic was too much of a risk because if an action failed on me which had no reason to fail, then I'd have been screwed. After all, I knew there was a LOYAL NEIGHBORIZER (two actually) in the game. A loyal neighborizer targeting me would get a guilty result, and I needed to explain why the guilty would not be a guilty. Thus, I needed to claim the ascetic. Trueclaiming was, by the setup, made necessary. I COULD NOT have fakeclaimed there because fakeclaiming would have been against my scum wincon.

In this game, I had no reason to lie about my role and had incentive to tell the truth on everything, with the exception of saying I did not kill N1 (when I did), which I had incentive for thanks to my scumbuddy. My role was guaranteed to die at the end of D2, so all I had to do was survive through D1 after using my role, lie about not having done the kill, and let my scumbuddy claim a(n accurate) guilty on me.

In this game, I claimed my real role because there was no reason not to claim it. Doctor was my real role and is a town role. Why would I need to invent a fakeclaim when my realclaim is better than any fakeclaim could be?

In this game, there was genuinely nothing I could claim given what the town roles were. I was also a scum role

literally designed to die

. I was a scum role that was

designed

to be eliminated, in order to janitor my flip and to janitor the flip the following night. When you are a role

designed

to die, you're not

meant

to claim something that will let you live. And even should you choose to, when the town has the tools they had that game, there weren't a lot of options. What

was

I supposed to claim there? I had basically nothing. No mod safeclaim, no viable fakeclaim.

In this game, I was a Goon and the counterwagon to me was a scumbuddy; it was, explicitly, playing to my wincon to

not

fakeclaim because had I fakeclaimed, then our scum PR we wanted to live would have been eliminated on D1.

In this game, due to poor mod design, the only three PRs were basically masons. It was very very obvious that they were the only three PRs in the game from the game design and that there were no other PRs. All three were known, easily identified, proven, and un-CC'able (due to being the last scum alive, natch). Because of the setup and the circumstance, I

couldn't

fakeclaim that game because fakeclaiming would have been gamethrowing.

In this game, I fully believed that claiming my role truthfully was a town role. Scum never get to use Vigilantes so me being a scum Vigilante made me genuinely believe that claiming Vig was playing to my wincon. Lying I thought would be playing against my wincon.



So.

Why am I being punished for saying I don't fakeclaim as scum, when I have always had

damn fucking good reasons

for not having fakeclaimed as scum? (And, in fact,

have a proven record of fakeclaiming as scum

? Did the listmods not do their fucking research into my game history and not notice the games where my claimed role actually didn't match my assigned role?)

I genuinely have just laid out my entire scum history of notable games with claims, and the results speak for themselves.

Every time I fakeclaimed without meeting the standards by which a fakeclaim is optimal, it didn't work, because the fakeclaim was not optimal.
The times I fakeclaim which meet the standards to fakeclaim are incredibly rare.
Most fakeclaims are best supported by being more true than not, at least 50% true if not 75-95%. If a claim's 5% fake but 95% real it's more likely to be believed than a claim that's 95% fake but 5% real.

And most setups actually punish the scum for fakeclaiming and reward the scumteam for trueclaiming.

So the policy, and the rule, is bullshit.

I don't fakeclaim as scum not because of policy against fakeclaiming as scum, but because

fakeclaiming would be gamethrowing as scum

. And stating that, which is truthful, should NOT be against the rules. If it is against my wincon to fakeclaim as scum, then not being able to mention that is literally ridiculous.

[Nashville Dreams]

This is more of me echoing Well Done's concern that the mod might not put a beloved princess in to be randomized in this setup

That is not our stance

We said that we have doubts whether a beloved princess would be aligned with the mafia/werewolf factions

My belief is that in general mastina does not fake claim, regardless of alignment, except for in extreme circumstances. They claimed beloved princess? That's their real role. Now figure out their alignment. We are against eliminating the beloved princess.

Dw.

I’ll just persuade Catboi to vig her for real this time