Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[MalcolmTucker]

VC 1.32

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Scorpious [6]:

KittyTacky [1791], Gamma Emerald [2198], Andresvmb [2233], MathBlade [2721], JacksonVirgo [2738], Not Known 15 [2745] ---

E-1

KittyTacky [2]:

ItalianoVD [1867], Scorpious [2768]

Malakittens [2]:

humaneatingmonkey [792], Malakittens [2598]

Andresvmb [1]:

koopashell [2583]

humaneatingmonkey [1]:

MalcolmTucker [2657]

Not voting [1]:

Roden [2123]

Gonna do a bit of work in general looking at the Scorpious wagon and how it built up.

Re the possibility of Kitty mafia, interesting that we have Kitty as the first vote on Scorpious, and then Andre as the third. If Kitty is mafia, perfectly possible they suggested to Andre to put a vote on there since they'd been on Scorpious for a while and the wagon would then have some proper firm momentum as a result.

Alternatively, if mafia directed the Scorpious elimination, Math as the fourth vote is potentially interesting...could argue that was what very much tipped it into being the prime elimination at a point when we were still uncertain who was going out.

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

I think there’s definitely some shenanigans with D1 we just don’t know. Almost no wagon took off and so I am thinking either trying to stay off for cred or trying for no elim to get rid of PRs. I could come up with a way for almost anyone could be scum but that doesn’t make it true.

There's ways you could spin lots of players looking quite scummy but that's fundamentally a central component of the game...it's surely still worth looking at no? If anything I think the Scorpious wagon was largely ignored more than it should have been due to D2 quick elimination of Andre and the HEM/JV clash to kick off D3.

[MathBlade]

VC 1.32

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Scorpious [6]:

KittyTacky [1791], Gamma Emerald [2198], Andresvmb [2233], MathBlade [2721], JacksonVirgo [2738], Not Known 15 [2745] ---

E-1

KittyTacky [2]:

ItalianoVD [1867], Scorpious [2768]

Malakittens [2]:

humaneatingmonkey [792], Malakittens [2598]

Andresvmb [1]:

koopashell [2583]

humaneatingmonkey [1]:

MalcolmTucker [2657]

Not voting [1]:

Roden [2123]

Gonna do a bit of work in general looking at the Scorpious wagon and how it built up.

Re the possibility of Kitty mafia, interesting that we have Kitty as the first vote on Scorpious, and then Andre as the third. If Kitty is mafia, perfectly possible they suggested to Andre to put a vote on there since they'd been on Scorpious for a while and the wagon would then have some proper firm momentum as a result.

Alternatively, if mafia directed the Scorpious elimination, Math as the fourth vote is potentially interesting...could argue that was what very much tipped it into being the prime elimination at a point when we were still uncertain who was going out.

Yes the argument could be made there. However that’d be flawed. If I was scum then I could have picked almost any of the 20 wagons on D1, could have encouraged any of the other bullshit that happened that day. I was just offline for the last few votes.

[MalcolmTucker]

VC 1.32

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Scorpious [6]:

KittyTacky [1791], Gamma Emerald [2198], Andresvmb [2233], MathBlade [2721], JacksonVirgo [2738], Not Known 15 [2745] ---

E-1

KittyTacky [2]:

ItalianoVD [1867], Scorpious [2768]

Malakittens [2]:

humaneatingmonkey [792], Malakittens [2598]

Andresvmb [1]:

koopashell [2583]

humaneatingmonkey [1]:

MalcolmTucker [2657]

Not voting [1]:

Roden [2123]

Gonna do a bit of work in general looking at the Scorpious wagon and how it built up.

Re the possibility of Kitty mafia, interesting that we have Kitty as the first vote on Scorpious, and then Andre as the third. If Kitty is mafia, perfectly possible they suggested to Andre to put a vote on there since they'd been on Scorpious for a while and the wagon would then have some proper firm momentum as a result.

Alternatively, if mafia directed the Scorpious elimination, Math as the fourth vote is potentially interesting...could argue that was what very much tipped it into being the prime elimination at a point when we were still uncertain who was going out.

Yes the argument could be made there. However that’d be flawed. If I was scum then I could have picked almost any of the 20 wagons on D1, could have encouraged any of the other bullshit that happened that day. I was just offline for the last few votes.

Trying to figure out what I make of your approach in general re Scorpious. I think you were asking him plenty of good questions on D1 and pointing out contradictions in his play that probably helped with the elimination. But if you were on the mafia team and saw Scorpious as a viable elimination I could see you doing that as mafia...if a player has made a readslist that can genuinely be picked apart as inconsistent despite them being town, it's something I think a skilled mafia player might be all over.

[MathBlade]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

I think there’s definitely some shenanigans with D1 we just don’t know. Almost no wagon took off and so I am thinking either trying to stay off for cred or trying for no elim to get rid of PRs. I could come up with a way for almost anyone could be scum but that doesn’t make it true.

There's ways you could spin lots of players looking quite scummy but that's fundamentally a central component of the game...it's surely still worth looking at no? If anything I think the Scorpious wagon was largely ignored more than it should have been due to D2 quick elimination of Andre and the HEM/JV clash to kick off D3.

Everything is worth looking into but I don’t think it’s fruitful here. I think the fact we got a wagon to actually complete and get somewhere is pretty good.

[MalcolmTucker]

One last thing, Andres doesn't lurk as either alignment, he is either busy or forgot about this game, probably.

VOTE: Scorpious

Night for real.

Given possibility of Kitty being mafia (and with this being the post that started the Scorpious wagon) is there a chance this is Kitty defending a mafia teammate here? Not sure if Andres genuinely was lurking due to being busy but without NK15's check we'd have been limited for info either way. Feel like this could very much be a soft attempt to stop any possible bandwagon from forming on Andres.

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

I think there’s definitely some shenanigans with D1 we just don’t know. Almost no wagon took off and so I am thinking either trying to stay off for cred or trying for no elim to get rid of PRs. I could come up with a way for almost anyone could be scum but that doesn’t make it true.

There's ways you could spin lots of players looking quite scummy but that's fundamentally a central component of the game...it's surely still worth looking at no? If anything I think the Scorpious wagon was largely ignored more than it should have been due to D2 quick elimination of Andre and the HEM/JV clash to kick off D3.

Everything is worth looking into but I don’t think it’s fruitful here. I think the fact we got a wagon to actually complete and get somewhere is pretty good.

What part? The theories I'm floating re your possible involvement, or the D1 wagon in general?

[MathBlade]

VC 1.32

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Scorpious [6]:

KittyTacky [1791], Gamma Emerald [2198], Andresvmb [2233], MathBlade [2721], JacksonVirgo [2738], Not Known 15 [2745] ---

E-1

KittyTacky [2]:

ItalianoVD [1867], Scorpious [2768]

Malakittens [2]:

humaneatingmonkey [792], Malakittens [2598]

Andresvmb [1]:

koopashell [2583]

humaneatingmonkey [1]:

MalcolmTucker [2657]

Not voting [1]:

Roden [2123]

Gonna do a bit of work in general looking at the Scorpious wagon and how it built up.

Re the possibility of Kitty mafia, interesting that we have Kitty as the first vote on Scorpious, and then Andre as the third. If Kitty is mafia, perfectly possible they suggested to Andre to put a vote on there since they'd been on Scorpious for a while and the wagon would then have some proper firm momentum as a result.

Alternatively, if mafia directed the Scorpious elimination, Math as the fourth vote is potentially interesting...could argue that was what very much tipped it into being the prime elimination at a point when we were still uncertain who was going out.

Yes the argument could be made there. However that’d be flawed. If I was scum then I could have picked almost any of the 20 wagons on D1, could have encouraged any of the other bullshit that happened that day. I was just offline for the last few votes.

Trying to figure out what I make of your approach in general re Scorpious. I think you were asking him plenty of good questions on D1 and pointing out contradictions in his play that probably helped with the elimination. But if you were on the mafia team and saw Scorpious as a viable elimination I could see you doing that as mafia...if a player has made a readslist that can genuinely be picked apart as inconsistent despite them being town, it's something I think a skilled mafia player might be all over.

I am indeed a skilled mafia player. There’s nothing here to really address though. A skilled mafia player can make those posts. However so can incorrect town, which I am.

That day was going on way too long and we needed an elim somewhere. Do I regret being offline for the additional D1 action? Yes. But there’s nothing I can do to change that so I just work forward.

[MathBlade]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

I think there’s definitely some shenanigans with D1 we just don’t know. Almost no wagon took off and so I am thinking either trying to stay off for cred or trying for no elim to get rid of PRs. I could come up with a way for almost anyone could be scum but that doesn’t make it true.

There's ways you could spin lots of players looking quite scummy but that's fundamentally a central component of the game...it's surely still worth looking at no? If anything I think the Scorpious wagon was largely ignored more than it should have been due to D2 quick elimination of Andre and the HEM/JV clash to kick off D3.

Everything is worth looking into but I don’t think it’s fruitful here. I think the fact we got a wagon to actually complete and get somewhere is pretty good.

What part? The theories I'm floating re your possible involvement, or the D1 wagon in general?

I think the Scorpious wagon in general. Due to how we never got a wagon to 4 or 5 almost all day then finally got an elim I think it’s probably mostly town rather than scum. However I understand the common reaction to look at the wagon which is to look at it, so please look away. I have to work now but we will check after work.

[ItalianoVD]

That sounds fake.

VOTE: Italiano

What sounds fake? My explanation? Lol smh. Are you scum?

[MalcolmTucker]

There's almost definitely at least one scum between {Malakittens, JacksonVirgo, Scorpious}. Italiano seems less scummy after a reevaluation but it's possible. But I'm voting between those three today barring something shaking up the gamestate in an extreme manner.

MT, you still didn't answer my question as for why TOWNIES would sit on Koopa. It's a dumb play as scum but a dumber one as town. Maybe they're trying to make a wagon crystallize. Maybe just one is scum and the other is a scummy townie who got sheeped. IDK.

@everyone

We should stop here for a moment(1 day or so) and everyone posts readslists and then we can discuss more.

I hate this idea..

Of course you do.

JacksonVirgoon. Scumpious. Mafiakittens.

moves JacksonVirgoon down to "Strong Scum"

moves JacksonVirgoon down to "Strong Scum"

You already had me there, you aren't fooling anyone.

You were a scumlean when I made my list. It's deffo you and Mala.

I think FL is just pocketed town and Scorpious is more likely to be the third mafioso. His playstyle really reads to me like a defeated scum being sad at his teammates sinking day 1.

Koopa is super town.

JV pointed out Koopa may be wrong re how they perceive the role alignments available in the game, I don't think mafia does that and it gives him some town points from me. If Koopa is wrong on this, why correct them? If they're right, seems risky to try a misdirect for available roles in the game.

Sinking mafias will do anything to get townread.

Both Scumpious and Mafiakittens did basically nothing to solve this game.

Let's get Mala to E-1 so they get hammered.

I'm sorry if you're town but it's not a cardinal sin to push: a lurker; a player whose posts are mostly random complaints; and someone defending the lurker while also not doing much else. Not voting the latter but only because of the PR claim.

I just can't look at someone who pushed a claimed investigative day 1 and say "yeah this is town". Absurd.

You pushed A CLAIMED INVESTIGATIVE POWER ROLE DAY 1.

Let's all wagon Scorp.

The more I read back Kitty's play the more I think they're mafia. They continually stated again and again Scorpious made sense because they'd pushed a role claimed player but refused to consider that this was a pretty illogical move for mafia to make that would only put them under more suspicion, and that it was potentially more likely to end up coming from townie not thinking things through properly.

You can also see shades of this in Kitty's reads of JV and Mala - presuming the former is definitely townie, it feels like Kitty as mafia has been picking up on any contradictions in play from townies and using said contradictions to make a mafia case. Because, like I said before, it can seem pretty convincing...technically speaking some of what Kitty said about Scorpious may be true, but it doesn't make them mafia as such because again it's not a good mafia play.

I get why the Scorpious wagon went through and we were struggling for alternatives but Kitty's continued defence of genuinely believing Scorpious was mafia afterwards doesn't really wash for me. Kitty is clever enough and presumably experienced enough to know townies can have contradictions within their game and that players who don't try to hide said contradictions are potentially more likely to be lazy town than mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Re 3183 Math (won't quote it due to length), I get that the Scorpious wagon isn't going to be perfect insofar as the info we gain from it but the idea we should just largely ignore it in approaching who we should eliminate next because it's going to be confusing and hard to get anything definitive seems strange to be. Surely if it's mostly town on the wagon, it's also then worth analysing where mafia placed their votes, and what they were trying to achieve by doing this? The game for town is ultimately won via info we gain as time goes on, an actual elimination and how players voted is for me always going to be one of the best ways to gain said info, especially when we push players on the basis of it to see how they react.

[MalcolmTucker]

I just fundamentally don't see why it's a good idea to ignore a D1 wagon of a townie who (to me) really did not look like mafia because it's not going to give us definitive info. That's...largely what happens in any mafia game? A lot of this game is based on gut reads, I'd rather at least be making a gut read based on actual info we've gained, and it feels telling that Math is keen to avoid this.

[ItalianoVD]

I wanted to get to the Scorpious wagon, but Day 2 was Day 2 and now Day 3 is on me, but I’m at least content in knowing that this a direction Malcolm is going. It was a bad wagon period.

[ItalianoVD]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

Whether this was for show or not depends on people’s perception. Me saying it wasn’t means absolutely nothing if people already see me as scum because it’s only fmpov. But for you to bring this up makes me feel even stronger about you as town, unless you are white knighting me which isn’t impossible, but this is a good point to bring up.

[KittyTacky]

Silly question: Where is Mala?

I hope she is alright IRL, I'm hesitant to turbo push her for lurking again since it's known she is lurking for IRL reasons.

I hope so too. I only asked where she was and did not suggest a turbo push. This is sus.

I know you didn't suggest it, but I turbo pushed her for lurking before. What is this shade throw...

[KittyTacky]

VC 1.32

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Scorpious [6]:

KittyTacky [1791], Gamma Emerald [2198], Andresvmb [2233], MathBlade [2721], JacksonVirgo [2738], Not Known 15 [2745] ---

E-1

KittyTacky [2]:

ItalianoVD [1867], Scorpious [2768]

Malakittens [2]:

humaneatingmonkey [792], Malakittens [2598]

Andresvmb [1]:

koopashell [2583]

humaneatingmonkey [1]:

MalcolmTucker [2657]

Not voting [1]:

Roden [2123]

Gonna do a bit of work in general looking at the Scorpious wagon and how it built up.

Re the possibility of Kitty mafia, interesting that we have Kitty as the first vote on Scorpious, and then Andre as the third. If Kitty is mafia, perfectly possible they suggested to Andre to put a vote on there since they'd been on Scorpious for a while and the wagon would then have some proper firm momentum as a result.

Alternatively, if mafia directed the Scorpious elimination, Math as the fourth vote is potentially interesting...could argue that was what very much tipped it into being the prime elimination at a point when we were still uncertain who was going out.

Scorp was a fallback wagon I pushed for pushing a claimed investigative day 1, which I thought no townie would do.

[KittyTacky]

One last thing, Andres doesn't lurk as either alignment, he is either busy or forgot about this game, probably.

VOTE: Scorpious

Night for real.

Given possibility of Kitty being mafia (and with this being the post that started the Scorpious wagon) is there a chance this is Kitty defending a mafia teammate here? Not sure if Andres genuinely was lurking due to being busy but without NK15's check we'd have been limited for info either way. Feel like this could very much be a soft attempt to stop any possible bandwagon from forming on Andres.

I don't push people who have just replaced in and have yet to post anything as a rule because they might be busy or catching up. And after Andres lurked beyond any reason I was already locked in on other people. He slipped under my radar.

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

Whether this was for show or not depends on people’s perception. Me saying it wasn’t means absolutely nothing if people already see me as scum because it’s only fmpov. But for you to bring this up makes me feel even stronger about you as town, unless you are white knighting me which isn’t impossible, but this is a good point to bring up.

As I say it's likely mafia coordinated the wagon and there's a world where you were a teammate who stayed off the wagon to give you town-cred. But I think you were consistent enough here that it's somewhat unlikely.

[KittyTacky]

The more I read back Kitty's play the more I think they're mafia. They continually stated again and again Scorpious made sense because they'd pushed a role claimed player but refused to consider that this was a pretty illogical move for mafia to make that would only put them under more suspicion, and that it was potentially more likely to end up coming from townie not thinking things through properly.

1. You have failed to provide any town reasons to sit on a claimed PR day 1.
2. I had considered me might be not thinking things through, but not only town can make mistakes.

"This play is too scummy to be scum" is strange.

[KittyTacky]

*he not me

[MalcolmTucker]

One last thing, Andres doesn't lurk as either alignment, he is either busy or forgot about this game, probably.

VOTE: Scorpious

Night for real.

Given possibility of Kitty being mafia (and with this being the post that started the Scorpious wagon) is there a chance this is Kitty defending a mafia teammate here? Not sure if Andres genuinely was lurking due to being busy but without NK15's check we'd have been limited for info either way. Feel like this could very much be a soft attempt to stop any possible bandwagon from forming on Andres.

I don't push people who have just replaced in and have yet to post anything as a rule because they might be busy or catching up. And after Andres lurked beyond any reason I was already locked in on other people. He slipped under my radar.

I think it's fair enough that you didn't push Andres - some of us got frustrated at Koopa for trying similar gambits because we weren't ultimately going to get anywhere by pressuring a slot that wasn't engaging.

I just think it's interesting and somewhat convenient that you explicitly jumped in to assure people that Andres lurking wasn't something that indicated mafia play in the same vote that down the line started off the Scorpious wagon which eventually formed. If you were strong town I'd think nothing of it, but it's interesting given your limited engagement with the slot in general for me.

[KittyTacky]

It's a terrible scum play but it's an EVEN WORSE town play. It's not townie.

I think it's fair enough that you didn't push Andres - some of us got frustrated at Koopa for trying similar gambits because we weren't ultimately going to get anywhere by pressuring a slot that wasn't engaging.

I just think it's interesting and somewhat convenient that you explicitly jumped in to assure people that Andres lurking wasn't something that indicated mafia play in the same vote that down the line started off the Scorpious wagon which eventually formed. If you were strong town I'd think nothing of it, but it's interesting given your limited engagement with the slot in general for me.

Hard to engage with someone who lurks. I just didn't see him as a priority.

[MalcolmTucker]

The more I read back Kitty's play the more I think they're mafia. They continually stated again and again Scorpious made sense because they'd pushed a role claimed player but refused to consider that this was a pretty illogical move for mafia to make that would only put them under more suspicion, and that it was potentially more likely to end up coming from townie not thinking things through properly.

1. You have failed to provide any town reasons to sit on a claimed PR day 1.

2. I had considered me might be not thinking things through, but not only town can make mistakes.

"This play is too scummy to be scum" is strange.

This is kind of precisely my point though. It's not good play. It wasn't helping us advance the game. Koopa wasn't going to go out. But townies do things that aren't good play sometimes. It doesn't make them mafia.

"Too scummy to be scum" obviously isn't always true but it sometimes is...and literally was in this case. Ultimately the goal for scum is to stay hidden and blend in. Illogical pushes on a claimed role player is the opposite of blending in. Scorpious didn't even seem to be aware for ages Koopa had claimed, which would've been beyond careless as mafia.

Your belief Scorpious alone was mafia isn't my issue here though - I disagreed at the time but I was also fundamentally wrong on NK15. It's more the fact you appear to have suspected JV for very similar reasons at times considering they sat on Koopa too. But two mafia players sitting on the same role claimed player would've been really careless again, and was thus unlikely.

Even your push on Mala feels similar. There were some holes in Mala's early play. Mafia can exploit this for a read that seems genuine even though they know it isn't.

[MalcolmTucker]

It's terrible town play but you are ignoring the fact that it was actual town play in the end. Townies do daft things sometimes. Not everything that looks scummy is inherently scummy because as I say mafia want to blend in and avoid getting caught.