Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[catboi]

I have more to say on wallflower but I want to actually get a broader view of the game rather than just continuing to yell about them.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m not sure that there is an answer that could be reasonably expected outside of “you just do”.

What if I said that's a shit answer?

Then I would wonder whether you asked the question in order to elicit a shit answer, thus dampening the impetus of suspicion against you.

I asked you the question to try to get you to justify your reasoning. It looks like you're having trouble backing up your accusation.

Ooo, why so aggressive?

I feel like I should be able to say that your posting feels a certain way to me without needing to explain the feeling.

But there seems to be this need to stamp out any suspicion cast against you, first with Tracer, and then with me. Seems a little OTT to me.

this tauntiness and shade is scummy it looks manufactured and fake as hell

I do not think it looks fake.

[Flavor Leaf]

Wallflower is cheekytown

[Flavor Leaf]

@Menalque - Do you think there's a chance you're pocketed by Catboi? I went back and checked some things, and their first post in the game was an RVS vote towards you.

The fact you are town reading them so strongly for reasons I'm not sure why, not that I'm confident in Catboi scum by any means, but their first post acknowledged you, which is a direct way to interact with another player, and that can easily lend to trust for being acknowledged.

uh, maybe, but I guess it's more --

a lot of people seem to kinda want catboi dead

when while he hasn't had that much (bar one thing) that stood out as that towny to me,

he also hasn't been scummy

and I don't see the awkwardness in the early game that others are talking about.

I also think town!catboi is a high priority lim for scum, so I can see both scum teams + potentially malefactor all playing into catboi paranoia to try and increase the odds of getting said mislim

the thing I really liked and I guess the main reason that I think catboi is town based on his own posting is 809 which I could jive with once I read back through malc's posting and paired it with what catboi is saying. having now talked to malc more on my own, and also feeling better about town there, I in turn feel good about catboi getting there before me and helping me to see it too

The bold helps me read you and see where you're coming from, and I like this as a reason you are against Catboi.

I don't recall being in a game with CatboiScum, or ever seeing their scum game, I could be wrong, however, based on what I've heard, do you expect Catboi to be scummy on a Day 1?

I don't see the awkwardness either, this could be scum pushing that or town who doesn't know how to express it, because frankly, I don't think there would be a case on Catboi Day 1.

I dont know Catboi well enough, but I do agree, both scum teams + Malefactor joining is likely, however, a full scum team + Malefactor would join onto the other scum without knowing. Dangers of Multiball for sure.

I had a similar progression on Malcolm through Catboi even if I'm remembering correctly. I think it's another neutral reasoning based on scum being able to guess that he's not scum or a scum partner. I think Malc probably town.

Reading you as town here, and Malc here as town, makes me weary of Catboi, though.

It's a rough situation, for sure, but I think there's merit in pressure on the slot. I do not believe you and Catboi are scum together.

These are reasons for Menalque town reading Catboi. I think they're in a pocket. I explained why I believe that they aren't strong reasons to town read, but this is more of a Menalque town case than a Catboi scum.

[catboi]

It's not really a compromise. I really think MegA has a decent chance of flipping scum and generally feeling meh about the other popular wagon offerings right now

So I was going to say, typing up reads, but MegAzumarill and Toogeloo voting me is, like, expected behavior for them. They both have...low-effort playstyles, sheeping the largest wagon is totally within their town range. I don't read anything into it. For Toogeloo it's slightly +town because he's not even trying to look town or care about having reasons. I don't know Meg's scum game so can't say for sure any conclusions on the vote. First few posts in their ISO look all right, they had that random popin I hated and not much since then. Not really enough to draw a conclusion from, I feel like they'll be more readable over time.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I was saying this as a joke before, but when I look back on it, and the way people react towards Catboi, this is exactly what I feel they were doing.

In addition to me pointing out why it would be beneficial for them to be in the spotlight for at the time they were, they have key figures defending them without even being able to reason why they are defending them.


Like Menalque and Nashville.

And Cat Scratch also said it was lazy.

Which is interesting to me, because it’s being cut down.

yeah, I honestly don't remember your reasons for scumreading catboi, and then like 3 other people jumped on after you

Admittedly one of them is Toog, who might just need some time to find his footing in the game, but I'm not feeling either MegA or Norwee's votes there

TB also gave me bad vibes and I didn't like their reason for scumreading him either

[Flavor Leaf]

@Menalque - Do you think there's a chance you're pocketed by Catboi? I went back and checked some things, and their first post in the game was an RVS vote towards you.

The fact you are town reading them so strongly for reasons I'm not sure why, not that I'm confident in Catboi scum by any means, but their first post acknowledged you, which is a direct way to interact with another player, and that can easily lend to trust for being acknowledged.

I think Catboi started the pocket on Menalque from RVS, and went with it more than 'planned' it.

[catboi]

is it the easiest wagon to get going?

The easiest in the sense it was most likely to get going presumably from that situation.

Others might be able to get votes, but who all besides me was going to protect WallFlower, and I even doubt that I was being considered to defend WallFlower here.


Coming after myself or Norwegian would have been far more difficult, and while definitely possible, required an unnecessary 1v1 that I don’t believe scum wanted right there.

Both meg or toogeloo would be significantly easier eliminations, I could easily have screamed about them being opportunistic in voting me, they're incredibly easy players to mislim.

I don't think you're scum, I'm leaning town on you. I don't have a read on Norwee.

[Flavor Leaf]

is it the easiest wagon to get going?

The easiest in the sense it was most likely to get going presumably from that situation.

Others might be able to get votes, but who all besides me was going to protect WallFlower, and I even doubt that I was being considered to defend WallFlower here.


Coming after myself or Norwegian would have been far more difficult, and while definitely possible, required an unnecessary 1v1 that I don’t believe scum wanted right there.

Both meg or toogeloo would be significantly easier eliminations, I could easily have screamed about them being opportunistic in voting me, they're incredibly easy players to mislim.

I don't think you're scum, I'm leaning town on you. I don't have a read on Norwee.

How so?

I don't believe there's nearly enough for you to get 12 votes on them. There's not enough of a case due to low info.

And they're more likely to move their votes than WallFlower is.

[Flavor Leaf]

I think it's much easier to get 12 votes on WallFlower than Meg/Toog, and it also doesn't seem like the easiest wagon, but it definitely is the correct one to push as scum here.

[Flavor Leaf]

1206 is a scum post calling out someone's play as scummy.

Alternatively, maybe they're WvM, Multiball might have me defending scum hard here, but I'm genuinely town reading Wallflower, and dont see them acting the way they have been as scum.

They've been playing like scummy town.

[catboi]

On a skim I actually think norwee might be scum here. The towniest thing he had was his dust-up with malcolm, but other than that he's been floating and it reminds me a lot of his play in control where he was the SK. He'll call people town but it doesn't seem like he had reads he actually cares about and as town generally he finds something he wants to push and actually tries to solve.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, I'd by a ticket to a Catboi vs Norwegian opening night.

[butterchurn]

Reading over the last few pages, I find Flavor Leaf's reads on the gamestate to be insightful and I generally agree that Wallflower doesn't look scummy here to me. I don't think I agree with the conclusion that catboi is scum taking advantage of that, though. I don't see much scummy out of catboi so far, and I think the initiative he has taken towards solving when he is present is town-indicative, even though I haven't always agreed with his reads.

[MegAzumarill]

FTR I'm not sheeping the catboi wagon because It's the largest, it's because I think the people already on it are town.

[catboi]

I think it's much easier to get 12 votes on WallFlower than Meg/Toog, and it also doesn't seem like the easiest wagon, but it definitely is the correct one to push as scum here.

I don't think that's remotely true, generally it's super easy to take advantage of the LHF/lurky style players and push a wagon through on them as scum, someone like T3 for instance I just shoved to mis-eliminate every game.

I'd probably rate these players as the easiest ones to push here: Toogeloo, MegAzumarill, bnuuy, tictac, monkeyman, and enchant. Those are the types that end up as mislims frequently. Stylistically I think people are a lot less drawn to voting someone like wallflower - like, she pushed me first, she had the aggression, so in people's mind that discredits me a little and she presents herself as more "serious" than those players which means people are going to want to kill her a lot less, at least in the early game.

Why are you reading Wallflower as genuine town?

[catboi]

Yeah, I'd by a ticket to a Catboi vs Norwegian opening night.

mmm, I've already had plenty of games where I got into a shouting match with him.

[Flavor Leaf]

Reading over the last few pages, I find Flavor Leaf's reads on the gamestate to be insightful and I generally agree that Wallflower doesn't look scummy here to me. I don't think I agree with the conclusion that catboi is scum taking advantage of that, though. I don't see much scummy out of catboi so far, and I think the initiative he has taken towards solving when he is present is town-indicative, even though I haven't always agreed with his reads.

This is a reason I think Catboi is scum, which sucks to try to convince people of, but like...it's actually a scummy thing.

They're saying all the right things, picking the right wagons to go to, picking the right player to try to slide onto with Norwegian (note that I, the main one pushing Catboi, was interrogating Norwegian earlier). It's possible it's happenstance, I admit, but it just feels like they're doing all the right things to get people to town read them.

And a description of their scum game that was said earlier was controlling gamestate, strong at manipulating town, and coaching scum mates, and them saying all the right things, picking the best things to go after is why I think they are scum.

I don't believe many others would point out WallFlower as the easiest on the wagon, but I think like scum as town.

Look at the way they've interacted with my slot. I genuinely do believe they've been trying to pocket me this whole game with little ad libs towards me to try to get me on their side. I think I've been rather strong at noticing myself getting pocketed lately, as I did with Titus in my last game, but I wasn't able to do anything about it even while noticing.

I haven't been pocketed by Catboi, but I think the attempts were there. Titus has known me for 8 years now, we've caught each other, we've pocketed each other, we've town read each other correctly before, so they're always going to be one of the best at pocketing me.

[catboi]

well that was a fun series of posts to catch up on

I don't really see the case on Malcolm as scum, I think he looks pretty townie to me for now.

No real opinion on any of these meta reads, these do nothing for me, I know none of you. I'm sure you're all very cool and good at mafia. However I do think looking over Flavor Leaf's iso, a lot of his posting has been kind of reactive and/or meta discussion, which is pinging me a little bit.

I kind of see the point on monkeyman that he's acting

weird

but not necessarily scummy. Not sure he's my top suspicion at the moment.

pedit: originally I moved my vote to flavor leaf here but then he made a couple nice posts with detailed reasoning and now I'm conflicted again.

I'm not really sure I see the case on catboi as scum, to be honest. I suppose it's possible but nothing about their posts is really particularly sticking out to me.

Honestly, you'll have to forgive me for being a bit all-over-the-place at the moment, this is the first time I've played a multiball game

or

a hydra game, so it's a bit tricky to read people in ways I'm used to and it's kind of a lot to deal with, haha. I'm sure I'll get the hang of it with time though.

One game town with the same exact role, two games I played poorly as mafia, and one

fantastic

role madness game as a serial killer.

Just to be clear, you're claiming you've rolled vanilla townie in this game?

cassowary seems okay, except this is a very hedgy post? I get that it's still early game and reads aren't going to be that strong. But is this post actually saying anything?

[Flavor Leaf]

I think it's much easier to get 12 votes on WallFlower than Meg/Toog, and it also doesn't seem like the easiest wagon, but it definitely is the correct one to push as scum here.

I don't think that's remotely true, generally it's super easy to take advantage of the LHF/lurky style players and push a wagon through on them as scum, someone like T3 for instance I just shoved to mis-eliminate every game.

I'd probably rate these players as the easiest ones to push here: Toogeloo, MegAzumarill, bnuuy, tictac, monkeyman, and enchant. Those are the types that end up as mislims frequently. Stylistically I think people are a lot less drawn to voting someone like wallflower - like, she pushed me first, she had the aggression, so in people's mind that discredits me a little and she presents herself as more "serious" than those players which means people are going to want to kill her a lot less, at least in the early game.

Why are you reading Wallflower as genuine town?

Easy to push, not easiest to misfade.

WallFlower gives you that perfect amount of easy to push because there's content that you can reasonably push onto them while making yourself look townier in the process.

You pushing any of those slots do not make you townier.

I think those reasons you just mentioned coincide with the actual reasons why ScumCatboi chose to push WallFlower. You wouldn't just pick the easiest on the surface level, when I say easiest, I guess I more mean what's going to make your game as scum easier in the long run. You could push one of those other slots, but it doesn't actually help you in the long run unlike WallFlower, especially in Multiball.

WallFlower can flip anything, and it wouldn't hurt you BECAUSE they were pushing you first. I find it hard to believe that you don't think you'd win in a 1v1 with WallFlower here if I werent here defending Wall.

[Flavor Leaf]

it's the teasing nature of WallFlower towards me. While it's only happened a couple posts, both times it felt very genuine, and in a way that was done specifically not to discredit, which helped me look at WallFlower here as just playing in the moment.

They were also early on you, which I think is more likely to come from town then have a scum or so piggyback on you. I called out WallFlower for piggybacking, then gave me the info that it was actually the other way around that TB followed WallFlower.

On top of that, I believe WallFlower is the only other person on the wagon who's given more of a reason for being on you, which is another reason I believe you chose to fight there. There was a reason to go against, and it's probably incorrect, I'll admit. There's not a large obvious case on you Day 1. My reasonings explain where I'm coming from, but it's hard to convince others with those reasons.

WallFlower and I also have the same read on you.

It's not impossible it's MvW, it's not impossible I'm wrong on WallFlower, I just have enough right now to warrant defending them, and pushing you.

[Flavor Leaf]

The thing is if Catboi is scum here, they just claim a PR a bit down the line if they're in danger, and it's like a shock absorption of damage control.

[catboi]

I think it's much easier to get 12 votes on WallFlower than Meg/Toog, and it also doesn't seem like the easiest wagon, but it definitely is the correct one to push as scum here.

I don't think that's remotely true, generally it's super easy to take advantage of the LHF/lurky style players and push a wagon through on them as scum, someone like T3 for instance I just shoved to mis-eliminate every game.

I'd probably rate these players as the easiest ones to push here: Toogeloo, MegAzumarill, bnuuy, tictac, monkeyman, and enchant. Those are the types that end up as mislims frequently. Stylistically I think people are a lot less drawn to voting someone like wallflower - like, she pushed me first, she had the aggression, so in people's mind that discredits me a little and she presents herself as more "serious" than those players which means people are going to want to kill her a lot less, at least in the early game.

Why are you reading Wallflower as genuine town?

Easy to push, not easiest to misfade.

WallFlower gives you that perfect amount of easy to push because there's content that you can reasonably push onto them while making yourself look townier in the process.

You pushing any of those slots do not make you townier.

I think those reasons you just mentioned coincide with the actual reasons why ScumCatboi chose to push WallFlower. You wouldn't just pick the easiest on the surface level, when I say easiest, I guess I more mean what's going to make your game as scum easier in the long run. You could push one of those other slots, but it doesn't actually help you in the long run unlike WallFlower, especially in Multiball.

WallFlower can flip anything, and it wouldn't hurt you BECAUSE they were pushing you first. I find it hard to believe that you don't think you'd win in a 1v1 with WallFlower here if I werent here defending Wall.

I mean, you're not going to get anywhere explaining why I

could

be doing all of this as scum, because I think you can basically build a narrative that way for anything that happens in a game. You can talk gamestate hypotheticals but it doesn't actually make any of it true or explain why I can't be doing this as town. And that's the thing, I think wallflower is just extremely slimy and bad faith and has operated with a narrow singular focus on me from the earyl game momentum on me that she's trying to over-justify. Whether I think I can win is, uh, irrelevant, because I

actually scumread her

. But it's also the type of player I expect to get a lot of resistance on scumreading, that's not exactly what I call "winning" a 1v1

Like, I don't know with you. You do not think about the game in the terms I do. Which makes it hard to understand what you're getting at.

[catboi]

it's the teasing nature of WallFlower towards me. While it's only happened a couple posts, both times it felt very genuine, and in a way that was done specifically not to discredit, which helped me look at WallFlower here as just playing in the moment.

They were also early on you, which I think is more likely to come from town then have a scum or so piggyback on you. I called out WallFlower for piggybacking, then gave me the info that it was actually the other way around that TB followed WallFlower.

On top of that, I believe WallFlower is the only other person on the wagon who's given more of a reason for being on you, which is another reason I believe you chose to fight there. There was a reason to go against, and it's probably incorrect, I'll admit. There's not a large obvious case on you Day 1. My reasonings explain where I'm coming from, but it's hard to convince others with those reasons.

WallFlower and I also have the same read on you.

It's not impossible it's MvW, it's not impossible I'm wrong on WallFlower, I just have enough right now to warrant defending them, and pushing you.

Yeah, I'm going to just shrug and say "I don't get it" right now. Maybe this makes more sense to me in the morning.

[Flavor Leaf]

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

At this point in time, I believe the people on the wagon were MonkeyMan, WallFlower, and Swords, and catboi made an early defense attempt. 12 votes needed, and nobody's gonna actually quick lim you here.

Monkey is someone who I actually think is really good at spotting scum who is manipulating the game, but for the life of them, they can't explain why and generally go the wrong way about it, and is fun to go into a 1v1 with when scum because their logic is usually wrong, but the read is right, at least part of it.

I remember 2 games I believe where I took advantage of that fact as scum with them.

It helps that I town read Monkey, Wallf, and Swords here, sure.

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

Meant to respond to this.

That doesn't have to be a bad thing if you're a werewolf.

Why did you specifically mention werewolves?

this easily could be Catboi coming from one of the groupscum teams noticing this more than another player would. weak reasoning, but if scum, true.

Only did a cursory skim of his scumgame in a mini normal, but I think butterchurn is town here.

awesome. This one's big for me.

Butterchurn, similar to Menalque, Catboi made a comment like this towards you early, and while you understand and liked what I was saying, you were hesitant to go on Catboi because they made you feel good about them. they helped you trust them.

They tried to do a similar thing with MonkeyMan early as well.

Spoiler:

God, can we please just skip the RVS?

prob town

My theory is that Catboi is scum going for mass pocketing attempts due to this being multiball, and the ultimate goal is to survive multiball.

I'm fucked basically because I'm pushing what I believe very strongly now to be a scum. I have more, I found something I think is pretty juicy.