Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[MonkeyMan576]

I agree with ND on this.

[Nashville Dreams]

Well Flavor leaf is not pinging town, and they aren't town reading each other evidently.

It'd be more concerning if Flavor Leaf was pinging town right now.

stop pocket

I was saying this as a joke before, but when I look back on it, and the way people react towards Catboi, this is exactly what I feel they were doing.

In addition to me pointing out why it would be beneficial for them to be in the spotlight for at the time they were, they have key figures defending them without even being able to reason why they are defending them.


Like Menalque and Nashville. And Cat Scratch also said it was lazy.

Which is interesting to me, because it’s being cut down.

I'm stating it now. Catboi is telling honest truths, scumhunting and they keep being resurrected as wagons to scummy people.

[Menalque]

SoD is not scum.

The more people say this without SoD doing anything, the more I am convinced that I am right.

Listen, think what you might, but SoD is not scum, damn it!

[Nashville Dreams]

@Menalque - Do you think there's a chance you're pocketed by Catboi? I went back and checked some things, and their first post in the game was an RVS vote towards you.

The fact you are town reading them so strongly for reasons I'm not sure why, not that I'm confident in Catboi scum by any means, but their first post acknowledged you, which is a direct way to interact with another player, and that can easily lend to trust for being acknowledged.

I think Catboi started the pocket on Menalque from RVS, and went with it more than 'planned' it.

This just feels like you tunneling on Catboi by discrediting people who defend him as pocketed or reasonless rather than reevaluating your own position.

[MonkeyMan576]

I do not feel the reasoning for the SoD love.

[Nashville Dreams]

1206 is a scum post calling out someone's play as scummy.

Alternatively, maybe they're WvM, Multiball might have me defending scum hard here, but I'm genuinely town reading Wallflower, and dont see them acting the way they have been as scum.

They've been playing like scummy town.

This again just feels like you're defending a position just to defend it. Like you're too proud to be wrong. Been there so many times.

~Titus

[Nashville Dreams]

Reading over the last few pages, I find Flavor Leaf's reads on the gamestate to be insightful and I generally agree that Wallflower doesn't look scummy here to me. I don't think I agree with the conclusion that catboi is scum taking advantage of that, though. I don't see much scummy out of catboi so far, and I think the initiative he has taken towards solving when he is present is town-indicative, even though I haven't always agreed with his reads.

I like this as town.

[Nashville Dreams]

Reading over the last few pages, I find Flavor Leaf's reads on the gamestate to be insightful and I generally agree that Wallflower doesn't look scummy here to me. I don't think I agree with the conclusion that catboi is scum taking advantage of that, though. I don't see much scummy out of catboi so far, and I think the initiative he has taken towards solving when he is present is town-indicative, even though I haven't always agreed with his reads.

This is a reason I think Catboi is scum, which sucks to try to convince people of, but like...it's actually a scummy thing.

They're saying all the right things, picking the right wagons to go to, picking the right player to try to slide onto with Norwegian (note that I, the main one pushing Catboi, was interrogating Norwegian earlier). It's possible it's happenstance, I admit, but it just feels like they're doing all the right things to get people to town read them.

And a description of their scum game that was said earlier was controlling gamestate, strong at manipulating town, and coaching scum mates, and them saying all the right things, picking the best things to go after is why I think they are scum.

I don't believe many others would point out WallFlower as the easiest on the wagon, but I think like scum as town.

Look at the way they've interacted with my slot. I genuinely do believe they've been trying to pocket me this whole game with little ad libs towards me to try to get me on their side. I think I've been rather strong at noticing myself getting pocketed lately, as I did with Titus in my last game, but I wasn't able to do anything about it even while noticing.

I haven't been pocketed by Catboi, but I think the attempts were there. Titus has known me for 8 years now, we've caught each other, we've pocketed each other, we've town read each other correctly before, so they're always going to be one of the best at pocketing me.

I don't get this. This to me says playing as town is scummy.

Combined with your last post on Wallflower being scummy town, it just feels like you're tunneled.

I fully suspect this is multiball where most scum are doing nothing. They'll shoot the players FoSing them and lurk to victory.

[Nashville Dreams]

Most of my case is probably wrong, I'm more looking into it trying to make a case that I already know isn't there, so you guys are basically seeing my scratch pad.

Like I said, there just isn't going to be a case for this on Day 1, which is why the "could be" defense is so strong from them.

My gamestate alerts just pinging me so hard with them, but their actual scum work has had a strong invisible effect on the game.

But yeah, my scum read has definitely gotten stronger than it was before. The choices they've made from picking WallFlower on, even the way they chose to interact with me all scum motivated, but looks so townie doing it.

Day 1 sucks.

I agree day 1 sucks, especially in multiball. I've lost count of so many times town tunnel on each other and we eliminate an active voice. Even if I'm wrong, eliminating active voices in multiball is usually a net negative but I lack D1 charisma.

[MonkeyMan576]

Most of my case is probably wrong, I'm more looking into it trying to make a case that I already know isn't there, so you guys are basically seeing my scratch pad.

Like I said, there just isn't going to be a case for this on Day 1, which is why the "could be" defense is so strong from them.

My gamestate alerts just pinging me so hard with them, but their actual scum work has had a strong invisible effect on the game.

But yeah, my scum read has definitely gotten stronger than it was before. The choices they've made from picking WallFlower on, even the way they chose to interact with me all scum motivated, but looks so townie doing it.

Day 1 sucks.

I agree day 1 sucks, especially in multiball. I've lost count of so many times town tunnel on each other and we eliminate an active voice. Even if I'm wrong, eliminating active voices in multiball is usually a net negative but I lack D1 charisma.

So you're advocating a lurker lynch as policy?

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry elim, old habits and all.

[Nashville Dreams]

Last night has kinda killed my desire to play for the moment so I’m probably gonna take a step away and just active lurk until the ganas come back

I know I said lurking tends to be scum D1 but this feels townier goven a reason and we can expect a return.

[Nashville Dreams]

Most of my case is probably wrong, I'm more looking into it trying to make a case that I already know isn't there, so you guys are basically seeing my scratch pad.

Like I said, there just isn't going to be a case for this on Day 1, which is why the "could be" defense is so strong from them.

My gamestate alerts just pinging me so hard with them, but their actual scum work has had a strong invisible effect on the game.

But yeah, my scum read has definitely gotten stronger than it was before. The choices they've made from picking WallFlower on, even the way they chose to interact with me all scum motivated, but looks so townie doing it.

Day 1 sucks.

I agree day 1 sucks, especially in multiball. I've lost count of so many times town tunnel on each other and we eliminate an active voice. Even if I'm wrong, eliminating active voices in multiball is usually a net negative but I lack D1 charisma.

So you're advocating a lurker lynch as policy?

Not exactly. I still want a scum lim over policy. There are scummy in your face lurkers. Sooo

Scummy lurkers.
Scummy posters.
Null lurkers.

That's my priority.

[Nashville Dreams]

Guess I should check my items.
Catboi isn't going for the build I'd expect, seems to be a more DPS build with Almond Milk instead of the expected TechX blast.

CSF appears to be trying to mistake Guppys Head for Crickets head.

FL is trying to holy mantle the curse room. Might have a voodoo cookie?

And Titus is confused

[Nashville Dreams]

Well Done has majorly fell off.

[NorwegianboyEE]

SoD is not scum.

The more people say this without SoD doing anything, the more I am convinced that I am right.

SoD towntold hard when they accidentally claimed VT but stuck to it as an new-ish player.

[Nashville Dreams]

I'll be back tonight to organize thoughts into a solo reads list tonight I hope.

[MonkeyMan576]

What is the likelyhood that he is actually VT in this setup?

[Nashville Dreams]

SoD is not scum.

The more people say this without SoD doing anything, the more I am convinced that I am right.

SoD towntold hard when they accidentally claimed VT but stuck to it as an new-ish player.

How do you feel 1102 is an accident?

[NorwegianboyEE]

What is the likelyhood that he is actually VT in this setup?

Previous setup had more than 1 VT i think. So it wouldn’t be that weird.

[Save The Dragons]

SoD is too adorable to be scum

[NorwegianboyEE]

SoD is not scum.

The more people say this without SoD doing anything, the more I am convinced that I am right.

SoD towntold hard when they accidentally claimed VT but stuck to it as an new-ish player.

How do you feel 1102 is an accident?

Ok accident isn’t the right word. I mean it’s very nonchalant claiming of VT. Which i find to be pretty townie as i think it’s someone that is both new and town is more likely to do than a player that rolled scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

What is the likelyhood that he is actually VT in this setup?

Previous setup had more than 1 VT i think. So it wouldn’t be that weird.

Yeah but in all likelyhood this is role madness, so at the risk of appeal to probability I feel the chances are low.

[butterchurn]

Okay let's talk about catboi

Spoiler: meow

I have thought about this

while at work, while on the bus home, while heating up my frozen lentil soup in the microwave, watching it spin round and round... round and round... and just like that my thoughts on catboi have spun round and round.. round and round...

the key question is.. does catboi actually play like this as scum?

and I don't know for sure. Right now I'm still thinking.. yes, but I don't really share Flavor Leaf's certainty.

so I'm gonna lay it all out there and we'll go on a journey together! and maybe you'll think I'm scum tryharding or whatever. I don't care.

(I do care but I'm gonna pretend I don't)

Actually let's do it pros and cons style. Where the pros section is the part of the microwave that thinks catboi is scum and the cons section is the part of the microwave that thinks catboi is town

THE PROS

(imagine the 21st Century Fox music playing)

Right now I'm looking back over catboi's entrance and it still makes me feel all twitchy.
The whole premise of catboi's reply to Klick's early expressed suspicion is "what exactly are you expecting out of page 1 posting?", which makes logical sense sure, but there's this excessive fixation on it. Not only is there the initial question in Post 70, but then there's the need to explain why this is a normal part of catboi's gameplay in Post 77, quote their posts in disbelief in Post 88 and conclude in Post 100 that it feels like a serious reach with a "*shrug*" that is so incongruent with the preceding series of posts, it appears like a forced attempt to

appear

relaxed. (In particular, noting that Post 100 occurs after a series of votes on Catboi)
But the issue here is that I'm pretty sure it's a totally normal thing for people to start the game off by "suspecting" someone with weak reasoning (how else does a game get moving?), hency my question at the time, asking what exactly catboi was expecting of Klick. It seemed to be very obviously that sort of weak early suspicion that only means marginally more than RVS. So why did it get catboi's whiskers in a twist???
Early Day 1 wagons are also a thing that happen all the time, so what is Post 109 if not an attempt to look like they are trying to solve the game. I don't think an experienced town player gets a silly early Day 1 wagon on them and thinks "there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here".

*

Lower impact stuff but I thought that catboi's reads felt conveniently positioned as going against the grain, and avoiding being part of any main wagon. For example the resistance to the Malcolm and MonkeyMan wagons, as well as Catboi's main expressed scumreads being people that weren't widely suspected. I wanted to watch this for longer to see how much it was a recurring pattern, and obviously it could just be coincidence, but it was just a thought I had.

*

Then there's the return post-catboiwagon 2.0. Post 1184 still seems totally off to me. Catboi in the post clearly knows that Tracer is gone. The approach of needing to discredit a player who has replaced out feels desperate to me, where I would expect town (particularly town that knows they haven't been their usual activity level) to feel more confident in being correctly read as town. It's as if catboi is compensating for something.

Now, the push on me is what actually has me a bit conflicted.
I didn't like Catboi building their read on me based on me not explaining why they seem panicky to me. -Especially in the moment, I think that sometimes someone will just feel a certain way to you without the words necessarily being there to express it yet. I'm still a bit annoyed that I apparently needed to explain that.
Also, it follows on from the situation with Klick and then with Tracer of Catboi being unable to just let it go when someone suspects them.
And in regards to the vote, based on Catboi's own self-described approach in Post 1206, it seems premature. Catboi asked how they seemed panicky to me, not why I thought they were scum.
And then finally 1224 - implying that I got scared and was running off, after I indicated that I did not have time for more in that moment, from a slot that has also had limited time since gamestart. HMMM

And now we get to....

THE CONS

(dun-dun-DUNNNNNNNNNNNN)

Now I realise there's going to be a lot less here, but the reason for doubting my read is actually a pretty big reason.

Maybe I'm biased, but the overarching impression I get from catboi's push on me is that it's really sloppy? If everyone starts wagoning me then I guess that'll prove me wrong, but in quoting my iso in Post 1208 there is actually a fair number of posts that imo contradict the point made by catboi in the post, which I think wagoned scum making a push would be a bit more careful about. I originally thought it scummy that catboi hadn't read my recent towngame (see Post 1214) before going all in with a vote on me, but then I thought that actually scum would probably think it pretty conspicuous that they hadn't done that, when they'd used meta to read other players unfamiliar to them (e.g. butterchurn) earlier in the game. Also Post 1250 claims that they have more to say when they clearly don't (otherwise they would have said it to try and convince FL later on). But again, this is more townie than scummy imo because town when in SUSPICION MODE will think their reasoning is better than it is while scum will more likely be more aware that they don't have much.

Also i don't really agree with FL's pocket theory.

SO

my conclusion is that, either way, catboi is probably a bit rattled for whatever reason, because I think the suspicion on me hasn't been particularly well thought out regardless of catboi's alignment. and the question is whether it's rattled town or rattled scum. I cooould see the sloppy suspicion making sense from scum needing to DO SOMETHING and being INVESTED could be a new thing to try? There was also always the chance that it would get me all riled up and lead to a 1v1 which people just dismiss as TvT (it seems to happen a lot). OR, catboi just really doesn't like being pressured as either alignment and there are other reasons where things went a bit loopy. IDK. I'm leaning scum, but I'm interested to see what other people think.

Okay that was a lot of words about one slot. If any of you are jealous and want the same done for you then it's probably not happening


PEDIT: I WANT A VOODOO COOKIE

I think this make a few interesting points. I did notice that catboi's reads were often going counter to what is popular at the time, which is actually something that I sometimes look for as something that very experienced players do intentionally as scum. It makes it look like you have unique, independent thought, and it gives you a lot of room to work with, without needing to face the facts of any of your strong reads actually getting eliminated and having it revealed whether you were right or wrong. That said, it's also done because it often effectively imitates said player's town game, so it's not necessarily a tell on its own. The other key point is about catboi acting "off" or "weird" somehow when it comes to pressure on him. I have picked up on this as well, but again, I don't think this necessarily makes him scum -- he said himself that he doesn't always respond very well to pressure as either alignment. So I think I could see the argument for catboi being scum, but I just don't quite feel it myself. When I go back and look at his posts, they just feel more like town to me.

In all though, I think this shows a level of nuance and honest thought process that would be beyond what I would have expected for Wallflower to pull out as scum, so even if I'm not convinced on catboi (I notice that a few others had this same sentiment), I do find myself leaning town on Wallflower.

I'm surprised, because most newer players tend to hate the way FL plays and want to murderise him for it

I found FL's posts so far this game to be fresh and compelling (except for the ones where he's talking about how good he is, but we can ignore those). It seems like he views the game differently than most, and I believe that having the most different angles from which to view the game at allows us the most chance of figuring out where all those angles line up to triangulate the position of where scum are hiding. I'm curious, what did you think about the points regarding catboi's alleged pocket attempts?

I have to admit I don't really like Wallflowers non confrontational approach so far.

VOTE: Wallflower

How many times are we going to let MonkeyMan get away with just joining whatever hot new wagon pops up? Wallflower was 3rd in his townreads in his readlist in 468 (3rd out of 22! That's extremely high!), and I don't see any post where he mentioned her between then and when he voted. He also joined the wagons on MalcolmTucker and bnuuy when those started going up (the latter with an awkward, self-conscious statement of how he is going with the flow). I don't feel like he seriously believes in any of the pushes he is making (when was the last time he talked about Malcolm or bnuuy after switching off of them? Any attempts to re-evaluate or sort?), and is just trying to sheep, not stand out, and isn't really doing any scumhunting of his own. This also doesn't mesh well with some people's earlier stated reasons of why he could be town, which is that he often draws attention to himself and is limbait. Here, though, he seems to have made a deliberate attempt to alter his own playstyle to stay more under the radar ever since the focus died down on him.

I think I shouldn't have ever let myself get convinced that he could be town here.

VOTE: MonkeyMan

[MonkeyMan576]

Okay let's talk about catboi

Spoiler: meow

I have thought about this

while at work, while on the bus home, while heating up my frozen lentil soup in the microwave, watching it spin round and round... round and round... and just like that my thoughts on catboi have spun round and round.. round and round...

the key question is.. does catboi actually play like this as scum?

and I don't know for sure. Right now I'm still thinking.. yes, but I don't really share Flavor Leaf's certainty.

so I'm gonna lay it all out there and we'll go on a journey together! and maybe you'll think I'm scum tryharding or whatever. I don't care.

(I do care but I'm gonna pretend I don't)

Actually let's do it pros and cons style. Where the pros section is the part of the microwave that thinks catboi is scum and the cons section is the part of the microwave that thinks catboi is town

THE PROS

(imagine the 21st Century Fox music playing)

Right now I'm looking back over catboi's entrance and it still makes me feel all twitchy.
The whole premise of catboi's reply to Klick's early expressed suspicion is "what exactly are you expecting out of page 1 posting?", which makes logical sense sure, but there's this excessive fixation on it. Not only is there the initial question in Post 70, but then there's the need to explain why this is a normal part of catboi's gameplay in Post 77, quote their posts in disbelief in Post 88 and conclude in Post 100 that it feels like a serious reach with a "*shrug*" that is so incongruent with the preceding series of posts, it appears like a forced attempt to

appear

relaxed. (In particular, noting that Post 100 occurs after a series of votes on Catboi)
But the issue here is that I'm pretty sure it's a totally normal thing for people to start the game off by "suspecting" someone with weak reasoning (how else does a game get moving?), hency my question at the time, asking what exactly catboi was expecting of Klick. It seemed to be very obviously that sort of weak early suspicion that only means marginally more than RVS. So why did it get catboi's whiskers in a twist???
Early Day 1 wagons are also a thing that happen all the time, so what is Post 109 if not an attempt to look like they are trying to solve the game. I don't think an experienced town player gets a silly early Day 1 wagon on them and thinks "there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here".

*

Lower impact stuff but I thought that catboi's reads felt conveniently positioned as going against the grain, and avoiding being part of any main wagon. For example the resistance to the Malcolm and MonkeyMan wagons, as well as Catboi's main expressed scumreads being people that weren't widely suspected. I wanted to watch this for longer to see how much it was a recurring pattern, and obviously it could just be coincidence, but it was just a thought I had.

*

Then there's the return post-catboiwagon 2.0. Post 1184 still seems totally off to me. Catboi in the post clearly knows that Tracer is gone. The approach of needing to discredit a player who has replaced out feels desperate to me, where I would expect town (particularly town that knows they haven't been their usual activity level) to feel more confident in being correctly read as town. It's as if catboi is compensating for something.

Now, the push on me is what actually has me a bit conflicted.
I didn't like Catboi building their read on me based on me not explaining why they seem panicky to me. -Especially in the moment, I think that sometimes someone will just feel a certain way to you without the words necessarily being there to express it yet. I'm still a bit annoyed that I apparently needed to explain that.
Also, it follows on from the situation with Klick and then with Tracer of Catboi being unable to just let it go when someone suspects them.
And in regards to the vote, based on Catboi's own self-described approach in Post 1206, it seems premature. Catboi asked how they seemed panicky to me, not why I thought they were scum.
And then finally 1224 - implying that I got scared and was running off, after I indicated that I did not have time for more in that moment, from a slot that has also had limited time since gamestart. HMMM

And now we get to....

THE CONS

(dun-dun-DUNNNNNNNNNNNN)

Now I realise there's going to be a lot less here, but the reason for doubting my read is actually a pretty big reason.

Maybe I'm biased, but the overarching impression I get from catboi's push on me is that it's really sloppy? If everyone starts wagoning me then I guess that'll prove me wrong, but in quoting my iso in Post 1208 there is actually a fair number of posts that imo contradict the point made by catboi in the post, which I think wagoned scum making a push would be a bit more careful about. I originally thought it scummy that catboi hadn't read my recent towngame (see Post 1214) before going all in with a vote on me, but then I thought that actually scum would probably think it pretty conspicuous that they hadn't done that, when they'd used meta to read other players unfamiliar to them (e.g. butterchurn) earlier in the game. Also Post 1250 claims that they have more to say when they clearly don't (otherwise they would have said it to try and convince FL later on). But again, this is more townie than scummy imo because town when in SUSPICION MODE will think their reasoning is better than it is while scum will more likely be more aware that they don't have much.

Also i don't really agree with FL's pocket theory.

SO

my conclusion is that, either way, catboi is probably a bit rattled for whatever reason, because I think the suspicion on me hasn't been particularly well thought out regardless of catboi's alignment. and the question is whether it's rattled town or rattled scum. I cooould see the sloppy suspicion making sense from scum needing to DO SOMETHING and being INVESTED could be a new thing to try? There was also always the chance that it would get me all riled up and lead to a 1v1 which people just dismiss as TvT (it seems to happen a lot). OR, catboi just really doesn't like being pressured as either alignment and there are other reasons where things went a bit loopy. IDK. I'm leaning scum, but I'm interested to see what other people think.

Okay that was a lot of words about one slot. If any of you are jealous and want the same done for you then it's probably not happening


PEDIT: I WANT A VOODOO COOKIE

I think this make a few interesting points. I did notice that catboi's reads were often going counter to what is popular at the time, which is actually something that I sometimes look for as something that very experienced players do intentionally as scum. It makes it look like you have unique, independent thought, and it gives you a lot of room to work with, without needing to face the facts of any of your strong reads actually getting eliminated and having it revealed whether you were right or wrong. That said, it's also done because it often effectively imitates said player's town game, so it's not necessarily a tell on its own. The other key point is about catboi acting "off" or "weird" somehow when it comes to pressure on him. I have picked up on this as well, but again, I don't think this necessarily makes him scum -- he said himself that he doesn't always respond very well to pressure as either alignment. So I think I could see the argument for catboi being scum, but I just don't quite feel it myself. When I go back and look at his posts, they just feel more like town to me.

In all though, I think this shows a level of nuance and honest thought process that would be beyond what I would have expected for Wallflower to pull out as scum, so even if I'm not convinced on catboi (I notice that a few others had this same sentiment), I do find myself leaning town on Wallflower.

I'm surprised, because most newer players tend to hate the way FL plays and want to murderise him for it

I found FL's posts so far this game to be fresh and compelling (except for the ones where he's talking about how good he is, but we can ignore those). It seems like he views the game differently than most, and I believe that having the most different angles from which to view the game at allows us the most chance of figuring out where all those angles line up to triangulate the position of where scum are hiding. I'm curious, what did you think about the points regarding catboi's alleged pocket attempts?

I have to admit I don't really like Wallflowers non confrontational approach so far.

VOTE: Wallflower

How many times are we going to let MonkeyMan get away with just joining whatever hot new wagon pops up? Wallflower was 3rd in his townreads in his readlist in 468 (3rd out of 22! That's extremely high!), and I don't see any post where he mentioned her between then and when he voted. He also joined the wagons on MalcolmTucker and bnuuy when those started going up (the latter with an awkward, self-conscious statement of how he is going with the flow). I don't feel like he seriously believes in any of the pushes he is making (when was the last time he talked about Malcolm or bnuuy after switching off of them? Any attempts to re-evaluate or sort?), and is just trying to sheep, not stand out, and isn't really doing any scumhunting of his own. This also doesn't mesh well with some people's earlier stated reasons of why he could be town, which is that he often draws attention to himself and is limbait. Here, though, he seems to have made a deliberate attempt to alter his own playstyle to stay more under the radar ever since the focus died down on him.

I think I shouldn't have ever let myself get convinced that he could be town here.

VOTE: MonkeyMan

I'm pretty sure I haven't stayed under the radar so this is nonsense. And I'm definately not altering my playstyle. You're reference to my limbaity-ness just seems like an excuse to make a scummy push on said limbaity player.