Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[Flavor Leaf]

You connected 1284 and 171 to 163 like it was the same thing, when that's just not the case.


171 stemmed from 163, but I clearly stated I was definitely not in it.

1284 I'm making sure people knew that if I was in neighborhoods, it was not with Klick/Enchant.

You are pushing like I was taking back not being in the hood at all, and that's just not true at all.

Not even something I can fake at this point, unless you think STD/Myself are both scum on the same side, and not even on the same page reads wise, but playing this up.

I specifically wanted it known that there's a 3rd member in there so people know it can later be confirmed.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm starting to get the feeling Well Done's just wrong town who thinks they found something because the hydra heads had a shared feeling, and didn't know what else to do right now.

[Flavor Leaf]

I wasn't pushing Dunnstral for having a scum read on me, it was the reasoning.

I understand why people would scum read me as town, that's fine.

[Flavor Leaf]

April Ludgate
Pretentious
Rick Dalton
Morality
Boonskiies
Comical

are my other alts you can look at if you eventually do a deep dive to look for how many games I've played with Dunn, Well Done.

[Well Done]

I have insomnia, and I lay in bed thinking about mafia games. Its a problem. So I am back anyways. ~Luke

pedit: a lot of posts appear to have been made while I was making this. Like a lot.

Flavor Leaf is not engaging in good faith.

I've been waiting to get pushed for a while.

My thoughts on that are it's very possible that both scum teams thought it was possible that i was scum on the other, so this looks probably like scum who's finally trying to stop any momentum I have going.

This post is one that I think betrays a mindset that is not grounded in sorting us based on our push, but to instead frame the push as scummy.

If you stop to think about this post for a second, it falls apart. He thinks that it is "very possible" that scum could look at his play, and genuinely think that he is scum for the other team. And based on that thought, us suspecting him looks like scum turning on him.

What part of this logic precludes town from thinking that he is scum here? What reason would scum be thinking that he is scum here, but town wouldn't be? It doesn't exist. But, he does not seem to think about that, because he is not trying to sort us here, his immediate reaction is to discredit a push. He started with the idea to call us scum for pushing him, then came up with a reason - that scum would think he was scum.

~~~~~

Our accusation, is that Flavor Leaf is approaching this game with a primary mindset of manipulation, and setting up narratives. And that seems more important in his approach to this game, then scum hunting/eliminating scum. Flavor Leaf consistently has responded to this as though we are saying that he does not have stated scum reads / is not scum hunting. Which, is clearly twisting our point.

Spoiler:

scum need to find other scum too, so this doesn't really have much base

If you want to act like I haven't given my thoughts on nearly every single slot on the game bar a few, like The Keeper or your slot

Well Done says I'm not looking for scum, but I believe I have the most layered reads out of anyone in this game

~~~~

Some examples of what I mean:

Wallflower

This makes me feel like Catboi has done well as scum with the social dynamics aspect of the game, and smoothly talked his way through the wagon on them and chose to turn the momentum on Wallflower, the easiest wagon to get going.

To start with, I disagree on a basic level that Wallflower was the easiest wagon to start up at the time. But, I think that there are two narratives that Flavor Leaf is trying to drive forward here

1)It felt more like Flavor Leaf was trying to further his 1v1 with catboi, by calling everything that catboi did scummy. Firmly establishing a FL against Catboi narrative.
2) He is simultaneously trying to seed the idea that he was solely the person that would defend Wallflower.

is it the easiest wagon to get going?

The easiest in the sense it was most likely to get going presumably from that situation.

Others might be able to get votes, but who all besides me was going to protect WallFlower, and I even doubt that I was being considered to defend WallFlower here.

Which, again, is not even true, as I don't think that wallflower was particularly suspected at the time, and we at least had them down as town - and were even discussing stepping in front of the catboi push in our hydra chat- but elected to let the two of them talk more before we said anything (and then Flavor Leaf beat us to it)

And pushing into that idea that he is the town savior, he keeps going with

me right now trying to save as many townies as i can

And the slimier one to me being

Menalque can take the brunt and blame here if Bnuuy's town.

yeah nope I don't like this

Bunny, I saved your wagon.

You just dont like my ego, and I understand. I get it, that one's on me.

He isn't just trying to get a scum wagon through, or to stop his town reads from dying, but he also wants wallflower, and bnuuy, and others that he is the person who saved them.

~~~

I also noticed it with the repeated refrain that mena is pocketed. I do not think that it ever had a chance to sway Mena the way that it was being done, and I feel like FL had to know that. These posts never sway Mena:

Spoiler:

Catboi > Nashville

Gonna have to give you the big ole wrong answer gameshow buzzer on the first one, but I guess I’ll listen on Nashville

Nah, you pocketed. I already talked about that.

I think Menalque just lives in Catboi's pocket, and did what he could to get pressure off of catboi. I think Menalque jumped in by themselves, for the most part.

So either catboi or wallflower is the correct elim for today.

Am I gonna have to go back to using the big red “X”s instead of saying buzzer noise

yo, you're so pocketed.

@Menalque - the more you do this the more it makes me feel Catboi is scum and you're pocketed.

Can we lim bnuuy now?

VOTE: bnuuy

Do you think this vote feels easier because of bnuuy‘a lack of recent thread presence?

yeah that was a bad vote, but i think he's trying to protect their pocketer catboi, so i dont know how to feel about it.

Catboi > Nashville

Gonna have to give you the big ole wrong answer gameshow buzzer on the first one, but I guess I’ll listen on Nashville

Nah, you pocketed. I already talked about that.

And if he is not saying it to sway mena, why is he saying it?
1) It keeps forcing the catboi vs flavor leaf narrative like before.
2) it discredits Mena's read on catboi

[Flavor Leaf]

See, everything you say in that post is true, I'm just doing it as town, though.

I do 1937 in essentially every single game I'm town in, so I just don't know what to tell ya

[Klick]

@Well Done - You wanna act like this is anything different when I know for a fact Dunnstral knows I play this exact way as town. Catboi is doing the same exact thing with the "pushing whoever pushes them" but you chose to ignore it.


Here's where I stand right now.

If you want to act like I haven't given my thoughts on nearly every single slot on the game bar a few, like The Keeper or your slot, it's because I was still needing something more concrete for the both of you.

I would say this is your first major point of action during this.

The fact that it came after my Mastina push and not my Catboi one makes me think there's merit in Mastina/Well Done being on one scum team, then Catboi/Cassowary on the other.

The rest is probably somewhere in my town reads because I don't expect to be correct on Day 1 with all my town reads, i fall in pockets early, and that's okay.

Sword of Ducks
Save The Dragons
Tracer Bullet
MonkeyMan576
Bnuuy

Malcolm
WallFlower
Menalque
Norwegian
Cat Scratch Fever

Toogeloo
MegaZumarill
Enchant
Butterchurn
Tictac
Klick

The Keeper
Well Done
Nashville Dreams

Mastina
cassowary

catboi

UNVOTE:
Alright time to lock down and get into this nonsense

People I don't want to eliminate today

butterchurn
Nashville Dreams
Save The Dragons
Wallflower
Well Done
Menalque

People I think are fairly likely to flip scum

Toogeloo
catboi
MalcolmTucker
bnuuy

That's my preliminary assessment from kinda sorta skimming for the past two days. I want better reads than this.

I have to remind myself that this game has 9 (!) scum in it, and therefore there is going to be a lot of nonsense on any given page

Sword of Ducks

Save The Dragons

Tracer Bullet
MonkeyMan576

Bnuuy

Malcolm

WallFlower

Menalque

Norwegian
Cat Scratch Fever

Toogeloo

MegaZumarill
Enchant

Butterchurn

Tictac
Klick

The Keeper

Well Done

Nashville Dreams

Mastina
cassowary

catboi

I am vibing with this reads list

I colored Klick's last reads list onto this list that they agree with and don't understand why they agree with it. Some explanation would be nice.

The post you've quoted here was a starting point before a series of catch-up posts that further refined my reads

Sword of Ducks

Save The Dragons

Tracer Bullet

MonkeyMan576

Bnuuy

Malcolm

WallFlower

Menalque

Norwegian

Cat Scratch Fever

Toogeloo

MegaZumarill
Enchant

Butterchurn

Tictac
[Flavor Leaf]

The Keeper

Well Done

Nashville Dreams

Mastina
cassowary

catboi

This is a better representation of my reads compared to this list. The main point being that the top two tiers are good

Klick, are you townreading bnuuy now? I noticed you were voting them during my catch up

I went with the wagon earlier upon a quick skim and deciding it had potential to be on scum
I don't have a particularly strong read on bnuuy. Actually, for a 9-scum game I'm disappointed that I can't seem to obtain a decent scumread on anyone in particular. I'm struggling to decide how scum would play the position is the problem, I think.

[Flavor Leaf]

And based on that thought, us suspecting him looks like scum turning on him.

Another twisting of the narrative.

I've stated multiple times it's not the damn turn.

God damn. Read the fucking posts.

You're densely skipping things that make it more convenient for your case to exist when I've said like 5 fucking times I SUSPECTED YOUR FOR THE FUCKING REASON.

Fucking surface level player.

[Flavor Leaf]

And if he is not saying it to sway mena, why is he saying it?

You're sitting here acting like I'm not fully fucking TRYING to sway Mena.

Like that's literally my fucking purpose in posting that shit, too sway Menalque.

Everything you are saying is literally what I'm doing.

Of fucking course I'm going to try to get Menalque to stop defending my scum read and get on board, that's literally how you play the game.


It's not like I wasn't giving my thoughts on reasons on why he should.

I'm not TRICKING him into going on Catboi, I was trying to convince him to because I believe he was pocketed by Catboi.

[Flavor Leaf]

And if he is not saying it to sway mena, why is he saying it?
1) It keeps forcing the catboi vs flavor leaf narrative like before.
2) it discredits Mena's read on catboi

Like, I am actively trying to do that.

I believe his read on Catboi is wrong.

Catboi vs Flavor Leaf is also not a thing.

I'm pushing Catboi. I am not fighting with Catboi.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm very aware Well Done is likely just actively throwing NAI cases out there to annoy me. I'll try to contain myself a bit more.

[Flavor Leaf]

What part of this logic precludes town from thinking that he is scum here? What reason would scum be thinking that he is scum here, but town wouldn't be? It doesn't exist. But, he does not seem to think about that, because he is not trying to sort us here, his immediate reaction is to discredit a push. He started with the idea to call us scum for pushing him, then came up with a reason - that scum would think he was scum.

this is why Well Done's entire push is garbage because they keep insisting I was pushing them for that reason when I've stated multiple times it wasn't.

It just doesn't fit as cleanly for them otherwise.

[Well Done]

What part of this logic precludes town from thinking that he is scum here? What reason would scum be thinking that he is scum here, but town wouldn't be? It doesn't exist. But, he does not seem to think about that, because he is not trying to sort us here,

his immediate reaction is to discredit a push

. He started with the idea to call us scum for pushing him, then came up with a reason - that scum would think he was scum.

this is why Well Done's entire push is garbage because they keep insisting I was pushing them for that reason when I've stated multiple times it wasn't.

It just doesn't fit as cleanly for them otherwise.

I am aware that you have since then shifted to a different angle. I'm specifically talking about your first post upon seeing our vote.

[Flavor Leaf]

And based on that thought, us suspecting him looks like scum turning on him.

Another twisting of the narrative.

I've stated multiple times it's not the damn turn.

God damn. Read the fucking posts.

You're densely skipping things that make it more convenient for your case to exist when I've said like 5 fucking times I SUSPECTED YOUR FOR THE FUCKING REASON.

Fucking surface level player.

I wasn't pushing Dunnstral for having a scum read on me, it was the reasoning.

I understand why people would scum read me as town, that's fine.

Look, I'm not saying Dunnstral's some savant at reading me by any means, but I feel like there's definitely double digits amount of games played, and controlling gamestate/manipulative, catch phrasing repeating things is just come on level of that I'm starting to think there's no way scum would be this dense about it.

Like I said it right here.

You're just misrepping and twisting again, kinda saying the same thing.

well enough to have a good read on their alignment.

this is a misrep.

I believe I said they would know at the very least controlling a gamestate/manipulating/repeating/catchphrase is personality. People know that off of like 1, 2 games let alone the many I've played with Dunn.

I wasn't like hidden on most of my alts, and even if I was, I always outed.

Look, I'm not saying Dunnstral's some savant at reading me by any means, but I feel like there's definitely double digits amount of games played, and controlling gamestate/manipulative, catch phrasing repeating things is just come on level of that I'm starting to think there's no way scum would be this dense about it.

Your last town game was a year and a half ago on an alt, but earlier you argued that Dunnstral should "know" you are town based on meta. Huh.

this proves you chose to discredit before even looking at the post, because that was March 26th.

Dunnstral has been playing here for years, and the case was controlling game and being manipulative?

That's just describing me as a person.

Here's the thing, they're right in the sense I'm controlling, but I feel it's clearly in the sense that I'm protecting my town reads. I'm not being 'manipulative' because frankly, I feel like I'm wearing all my thoughts and emotions right on my sleeves.

Flavor Leaf calls anybody who pushes him scum.

So you, Dunnstral, used this as a reasoning to push me?

Without realizing that this has only happened once this game, with Mastina, a player that essentially calls me scum in any game we've played together besides when I actually was scum that one time, and out of everything, you were going with this + controlling/manipulative?

Dunnstral will have to come in here and vouch for it, of course, since you're in too deep.

You acting like 2002 doesnt make sense is just a straight up twisting of the narrative.

I feel it makes perfect sense. You also actively timestamped yourself trying to prove that a later post than the one I had already done is what got you, when that's just factually incorrect.

Scum look for those exact softs that I did, that was one of my MAIN reasons for posting like that early was to eventually catch someone out. I didn't think it was ever gonna bite, but you coming in right after I pushed Mastina is the kicker.

You were waiting to do that, you had the ammunition, you thought, but your pushes are just built upon incorrect.

The majority of players in this game damn well know I'm a manipulative controlling player by personality, and Dunnstral, someone who's played many games with me over the years, is going to use that of all the things they likely could use to try and push me? No, I believe Lukewarm pushed that thinking it was a good reason, using Dunnstral aggreeance to make it seem better. Dunnstral now will have to come in here acting like he agrees because Well Done is caught.

VOTE: Well Done

I convinced myself you're scummier than Catboi is now, but eh, thats probably because Catboi hasn't been posting much today.

k i don't really think either of you are scum

but i bet we'll spend pages arguing about it

You need to explain if 1977 is FL misinterpreting something or if they are outright lying or trying to fit a square into a round hole or what.

And explain how 2002 and subsequent posts on the topic can come from town

What am I misinterpreting?

Those are MY thoughts. Dunnstral has a huge amount of meta on me, and I don't believe he thought that coming from a town POV. I can see them using that to push me as scum, sure, but it's not like I don't know how Dunnstral plays.

And do you believe this is something I wouldn't do as town?

Yep

You're being manipulative and that makes you more likely to be scum

yeah, I don't believe for an instant this is a Dunnstral take. That's just a playstyle quirk.

And there's a reason it's especially concerning coming from you considering a post you made way back when that you said you probably shouldn't talk about.

This post is a lie

It's a lie that Dunnstral and I have been playing in games for years, and he's time and time again seen me manipulate town as town, and still is pushing it as scum?

Where's the lie?

All these are times I've stated that it's not the READ it's the REASONING

and Well Done has actively just ignored it and pushed like it's the read itself, the push itself.

They have ignored anything that doesn't go on their path.

Like the Froggy Protection Posse.

Misrep and twisting, and then pushing NAI personality things acting like I'm trying to hide it.

[Flavor Leaf]

The first quote was after their last one, but the rest were before, and there was probably more, I just stopped after finding that many.

It's literally been said multiple times.

[Well Done]

Catboi vs Flavor Leaf is also not a thing.

I'm pushing Catboi. I am not fighting with Catboi.

I did not mean it as fighting. I meant it in terms of this, from your guide on how you play scum:

Spoiler:

Mastina takes action by actively pushing Votato, and starts coming across as one of the main people pushing him, which will help her when he flips Red, setting her up for some major Town Clout

Gamefic 1: Mastina’s main Red push all game was Votato, who flipped Red.

With it being multiball, I am aware that that could come from you genuinely think that he is scum, and still wanting the same effect.

[Flavor Leaf]

What part of this logic precludes town from thinking that he is scum here? What reason would scum be thinking that he is scum here, but town wouldn't be? It doesn't exist. But, he does not seem to think about that, because he is not trying to sort us here,

his immediate reaction is to discredit a push

. He started with the idea to call us scum for pushing him, then came up with a reason - that scum would think he was scum.

this is why Well Done's entire push is garbage because they keep insisting I was pushing them for that reason when I've stated multiple times it wasn't.

It just doesn't fit as cleanly for them otherwise.

I am aware that you have since then shifted to a different angle. I'm specifically talking about your first post upon seeing our vote.

OH YOU MEAN THE POST YOU GAVE THE REASONING INTO?!??!!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?

The EXACT reasoning I said I was suspecting.

[Well Done]

I'm very aware Well Done is likely just actively throwing NAI cases out there to annoy me. I'll try to contain myself a bit more.

This is not something that I would ever do, even if I was scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

Catboi vs Flavor Leaf is also not a thing.

I'm pushing Catboi. I am not fighting with Catboi.

I did not mean it as fighting. I meant it in terms of this, from your guide on how you play scum:

Spoiler:

Mastina takes action by actively pushing Votato, and starts coming across as one of the main people pushing him, which will help her when he flips Red, setting her up for some major Town Clout

Gamefic 1: Mastina’s main Red push all game was Votato, who flipped Red.

With it being multiball, I am aware that that could come from you genuinely think that he is scum, and still wanting the same effect.

Gamefic isn't scum exclusive.

And you have the THEORY that I'm setting up Gamefic, not that I'm actually doing it.

Dunnstral was in that game that I referenced with the Gamefic, by the way. He was final 3 with me.

What town clout am I setting up here?

[Flavor Leaf]

Explain to me what town clout gamefic I'm setting up.

You say I'm setting gamefic up. What gamefic benefits me that I'm setting up today that would help scumMe later?

[Flavor Leaf]

You know those Gamefic you are quoting, Mastina, Votato, and I were scum partners there.

Tell me, where am I doing that this game?

[Flavor Leaf]

I want you to make a sentence that would be the Gamefic that would help spew me as town as scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

What Gamefic Narration am I creating?

I see you been posting Catboi/Menalque stuff most of the time, but flipping Catboi, if Catboi ended up being town, does absolutely nothing for me. Flipping Catboi, and them flipping scum doesn't even really do much for me.

So what Gamefic Theory line do you believe I am setting up for later to townspew me?

[Flavor Leaf]

Gamefic 3: April Ludgate and Mastina with Chemist were in a death tunnel, and Mastina and Chemist both flipped red.
Gamefic 4: April Ludgate used their pre existing claim of JOAT, in which there were multiple, and got an accurate result.

These are the other Gamefic moments.

Mastina, April (Me), Chemist, and Votato are the scum team there.

[Flavor Leaf]

Our accusation, is that Flavor Leaf is approaching this game with a primary mindset of manipulation, and setting up narratives. And that seems more important in his approach to this game, then scum hunting/eliminating scum.

I have clearly transparent developed reads on the majority of players in this game.

I am a GAME STATE analyzer, and spent hours on end the other day pushing my main scum read.