Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[Flavor Leaf]

Oh this monk thing was actually a real claim? I though FL fake claimed something for the 1000th time.

I don’t fake claim, i true claim things that aren’t real

[Toogeloo]

Sounds like a real hootenanny in the monastery.

[Cephrir]

votecount 1.11

Nashville Dreams (5) | NorwegianboyEE, Wallflower, butterchurn, Save The Dragons, Cat Scratch Fever
catboi (5) | Tracer Bullet, MegAzumarill, Toogeloo, MonkeyMan576, Flavor Leaf

MonkeyMan576 (3) | Nashville Dreams, cassowary, bnuuy

bnuuy (1) | Menalque
Wallflower (1) | MalcolmTucker
Tracer Bullet (1) | tictac
Save The Dragons (1) | The Keeper
Flavor Leaf (1) | Well Done
Well Done (1) | Sword of Ducks
tictac (1) | catboi

Not Voting | Enchant, mastina, Klick

With 23 alive, it takes 12 to politely ask someone to leave.

Deadline: (expired on 2022-05-09 09:41:00).

[Flavor Leaf]

TB was genuinely calling me lock scum in the monk thread before i even got in there

[Flavor Leaf]

I think i broke him when i voted Catboi

[Flavor Leaf]

If Catboi is town, Menalque is scum probs. My Menalque town reads disappeared after their last, but since it looks like they’re getting over stuff, i won’t push Menalque Day 1

[Flavor Leaf]

I guess possible Menalque scum if Catboi is scum, but i don’t believe they’re ever on the same team

[catboi]

catboi (5) | Tracer Bullet, MegAzumarill, Toogeloo, MonkeyMan576, Flavor Leaf

Lol what a wagon

[Toogeloo]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nashville Dreams

Moving on.

[Sword of Ducks]

GOD DAMN IT CAN WE ALL JUST AGREE TO A YUJO FRIENDSHIP AND MOVE THE FUCK ON?!

[MalcolmTucker]

let's just try our luck with the beloved princess and see what crazy stuff happens over night.

VOTE: Mastina

Also, again, ridiculously sketchy, coming right after Wallflower expressed doubt on mastina in 2180 and Toogeloo had expressed a willingness to vote momentum. It looks like potentially he's hoping to seize on the momentum to eliminate a beloved princess and get an advantage off that

I really don't like this either but I'm again unsure how scummy it is. Flavor's now under a bit of pressure and if Mastina were to get eliminated (I don't think it happens this turn) and is town then I don't think Flavor survives D2.

I actually think it's one of the scummiest things he's done. You don't know about this since you're new, but Flavor Leaf is a player who likes to brag about talking his way out of hard guilties as scum on multiple occasions. He also tried to get a mason voted out in a game, simply as a challenge to himself to say he did it. Attempting to push through something as obviously antitown as a Day 1 Beloved Princess elim and then talk his way out of it is something he'd absolutely relish doing. I think the way he's going about it is scummy.

I've played with Flavor a bit now so know they have a somewhat unconventional style. I suppose it depends how they are approaching the game but I'm willing to at least on D1 play with the presumption that they are aproaching the game in a way that'd be beneficial to their chances of winning irrespective of their alignment. I don't think trying to eliminate Mastina would work from that POV because we'd absolutely eliminate Flavor on D2, especially with you and Well Done now both convinced Flavor is scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

catboi (5) | Tracer Bullet, MegAzumarill, Toogeloo, MonkeyMan576, Flavor Leaf

Lol what a wagon

Not to get too bogged down on activity but I reckon there's an opportunistic quiet scum somewhere in there. Meg or Toogeloo possibly.

[butterchurn]

Okay, a lot to catch up on, I don't think it would be terribly useful for me to do like a quote response wall like I was planning to do, so I'll try to summarize thoughts and can expand on thins if anyone is interested:

- I was already townreading Norwegian before this, but I think his attempt to get catboi to join on Nashville around post 2257 and beyond is actually extremely towny. Norwegianboy was just listed by catboi as a top scumread. Trying to convince catboi to vote a specific person among catboi's scumreads is immediately going to draw suspicion, unlikely to be successful, and in fact is most likely to cause the opposite of the intended effect -- make catboi more hesitant to vote where he is being told to. I don't think that Norwegianboy, as scum, is likely to make this attempt. As town he isn't really going to care about how it is interpreted or consider that catboi will find this suspicious, so he has no reason not to. He just wants to try to convince people to join him on the wagon of someone that he thinks is scum.

- I actually mostly agree with Flavor Leaf's assessment of catboi's large case, 2360. I read it a few times and it is very well-reasoned and well-explained. I think the most salient points are about how Flavor Leaf is focusing on pre-flip associations, planting seeds, and gauging where to go based on where there is momentum. However, my impression so far is that this is simply how Flavor Leaf likes to play. He is controlling, charismatic, and has a strong focus on analyzing how the gamestate shifts and moves as a whole, and will take action to alter the gamestate. Now, I haven't played with Flavor Leaf before (although I did read his scum guide), so again this is just my impression, but I would be willing to bet that a key difference between Flavor as scum and Flavor as town is that as scum, he takes action to alter to gamestate to shift it to his team's favor. As town, he takes action to alter the gamestate to feel it out and see how everything responds, because reading that movement is how he likes to solve the game. To me, so far, his actions in this game feel like the latter. catboi's explanation of his play is accurate, and it's true that he is relying a lot on preflips, but I'm not very confident that doing so is something that is more likely for Flavor Leaf to do. I can accept the argument that preflips are generally dangerous and potentially bad play, but town does it all the time. They see associations, and latch onto them in an attempt to make sense of a game where they are uninformed. Scum will do it too, but usually to gain an advantage. Maybe I'm being tricked by the charisma, but when I read his posts I believe Flavor Leaf does genuinely see these associations and that's why he's calling them out. Now the question is if I agree with Flavor Leaf that catboi's analysis is something that comes from him as scum. On that, I'm not sure. I feel like I can see the town in his responses to the pushes on him, it feels like he is genuinely concerned that people are scum taking advantage of things. I am concerned that his push on Flavor Leaf seems to be for things that to me look mostly like just Flavor Leaf things, though. Not willing to feel strongly about a read here yet.

- In response to catboi's tictac vote, since he asked for opinions from people he townreads: personally I struggle to discern alignment from low volume posters. Maybe that means I should be giving them more attention than I am, but tictac seems fine to me so far. 1794 was not great, but I think their earlier follow-up to catboi not answering their question was towny. I definitely think that Nashville Dreams is a more promising place for toDay, and since it's a large game we have enough time that there's very little chance that we will just lose to lurking scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not liking the automatic shade that seems to be getting dished out for quieter players being suspected/being suggested as possible wagons. Quite frankly I'd rather we force some lurkers to do some actual work and defend themselves instead of the same arguments that don't appear to be convincing anybody rolling on page after page.

[MalcolmTucker]

That's not directed at any one post - just generally some of the comments (mostly by Keeper) that have been getting thrown around on recent pages.

[butterchurn]

- I actually mostly agree with Flavor Leaf's assessment of catboi's large case, 2360. I read it a few times and it is very well-reasoned and well-explained. I think the most salient points are about how Flavor Leaf is focusing on pre-flip associations, planting seeds, and gauging where to go based on where there is momentum. However, my impression so far is that this is simply how Flavor Leaf likes to play. He is controlling, charismatic, and has a strong focus on analyzing how the gamestate shifts and moves as a whole, and will take action to alter the gamestate. Now, I haven't played with Flavor Leaf before (although I did read his scum guide), so again this is just my impression, but I would be willing to bet that a key difference between Flavor as scum and Flavor as town is that as scum, he takes action to alter to gamestate to shift it to his team's favor. As town, he takes action to alter the gamestate to feel it out and see how everything responds, because reading that movement is how he likes to solve the game. To me, so far, his actions in this game feel like the latter. catboi's explanation of his play is accurate, and it's true that he is relying a lot on preflips, but I'm not very confident that doing so is something that is more likely for Flavor Leaf to do

as scum

. I can accept the argument that preflips are generally dangerous and potentially bad play, but town does it all the time. They see associations, and latch onto them in an attempt to make sense of a game where they are uninformed. Scum will do it too, but usually to gain an advantage. Maybe I'm being tricked by the charisma, but when I read his posts I believe Flavor Leaf does genuinely see these associations and that's why he's calling them out. Now the question is if I agree with Flavor Leaf that catboi's analysis is something that comes from him as scum. On that, I'm not sure. I feel like I can see the town in his responses to the pushes on him, it feels like he is genuinely concerned that people are scum taking advantage of things. I am concerned that his push on Flavor Leaf seems to be for things that to me look mostly like just Flavor Leaf things, though. Not willing to feel strongly about a read here yet.

Missed a couple words here.

[butterchurn]

Not liking the automatic shade that seems to be getting dished out for quieter players being suspected/being suggested as possible wagons. Quite frankly I'd rather we force some lurkers to do some actual work and defend themselves instead of the same arguments that don't appear to be convincing anybody rolling on page after page.

I agree, I thought the Nashville Dreams wagon was being somewhat discredited in this manner.

[catboi]

Poor newbies underestimating the scum game of a guy whose schtick is that he likes to talk about how good he is as scum

[MalcolmTucker]

Not liking the automatic shade that seems to be getting dished out for quieter players being suspected/being suggested as possible wagons. Quite frankly I'd rather we force some lurkers to do some actual work and defend themselves instead of the same arguments that don't appear to be convincing anybody rolling on page after page.

I agree, I thought the Nashville Dreams wagon was being somewhat discredited in this manner.

I get it would be lazy for us to just casually settle on a low poster slot but the point is that if you drive up a slot said player is forced to respond and it gives us more info about them. While I was uneasy with the Bnuuy wagon in retrospect it gave us a useful insight into their play and made them look more townie. In a game this large other potential scum shouldn't be able to just coast by. Anyone who's overly protective of such slots is immediately suspicious to me here.

[catboi]

Not gonna harp on it but just going to say "I told you so" when we get to see his role card

[catboi]

- In response to catboi's tictac vote, since he asked for opinions from people he townreads: personally I struggle to discern alignment from low volume posters. Maybe that means I should be giving them more attention than I am, but tictac seems fine to me so far. 1794 was not great, but I think their earlier follow-up to catboi not answering their question was towny. I definitely think that Nashville Dreams is a more promising place for toDay, and since it's a large game we have enough time that there's very little chance that we will just lose to lurking scum.

That is

fair

, I suppose.

[Flavor Leaf]

Not liking the automatic shade that seems to be getting dished out for quieter players being suspected/being suggested as possible wagons. Quite frankly I'd rather we force some lurkers to do some actual work and defend themselves instead of the same arguments that don't appear to be convincing anybody rolling on page after page.

I agree, I thought the Nashville Dreams wagon was being somewhat discredited in this manner.

Poor newbies underestimating the scum game of a guy whose schtick is that he likes to talk about how good he is as scum

That’s not my shtick, just something that I happen to do.

My shtick is i win scum games

I also talk about my town games, in which I am a stronger late game town player than I am a scum player.

[MalcolmTucker]

Poor newbies underestimating the scum game of a guy whose schtick is that he likes to talk about how good he is as scum

Yeah I'm going to be honest Catboi, these posts do not help at all, and the same goes for Flavor when they're making similar posts. I don't claim to be an expert at this game nor even particularly good at it, but we have no reason to blindly trust you on this, and posts like this feel designed to make players (I presume Butter above) doubt their reads not for inherently being inaccurate or bad but for failing to understand complex meta dynamics only experienced players can get. Essentially going by this logic it's somewhat impossible for a player who hasn't played with Flavor to town read them and only your read (or the reads of others who agree with you) can be accurate.

[butterchurn]

Poor newbies underestimating the scum game of a guy whose schtick is that he likes to talk about how good he is as scum

If this is in response to me, I don't think this is a very fair read of my take on the situation. I have a lot of respect for his scum game (as well as yours, which is part of why I'm going to confidently call either of you town at this point), but I feel like in your case on him you are missing one of the key things that you always talk about -- why these things make him scum. I gave reasons for why I believe the actions that he is taking are not things that he is more likely to do as scum. I'm open to hearing more of your reasons. If you are town here, this isn't the response that I would have expected.

[Flavor Leaf]

There’s part of me that can see Catboi being in Flavor Fever mode, and I guess you could say I have some Catboi heat.

The main thing the two of us know about each other I feel, is they win scum games.

If they are town, scum have can easily make the mistake of waiting sitting back letting us 1v1, and then we just start town reading naturally Day 3, they’re likely gonna start crumbling.

That’s mafia, though.

Anyone saying they 100% sure on a day 1 is a red flag.