Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[SCP 682]

Catboi's protecting his defender.

I don't think Catboi-Menalque are aligned, but both of their reads on each other just make it absolutely not T-T.

i told u

mena malefactor.

[Flavor Leaf]

It's possible if they got cocky and thought Catboi wasn't going to get flipped.

[SCP 682]

mena can read catboi

mena found catboi scum

catboi recognizes mena scum too, but also recognizes that mena isnt pushing them.

they know.

[Flavor Leaf]

Catboi's protecting his defender.

I don't think Catboi-Menalque are aligned, but both of their reads on each other just make it absolutely not T-T.

i told u

mena malefactor.

Yeah, okay.

Malefactor is less important to hit today anyways, I think Well Done was saying that, and I think I agree with it. Doesn't tell us anything.

[butterchurn]

butter is angling to place a vote on me btw - its being telegraphed in trying to find things that are "scummy looking" that are just normal town progression and framing it as scum.

Trying to call me a liar for how I reached my reads is quite frankly the most blatant way they've pushed the idea that I am scum here without explicitly stating it.

Yes of course I see something that reminds me of something else and I later on go and verify taht for myself because I'm not going to trust the human brain to 100% remember shit.

There is a lot of putting words into my mouth that don't exist - trying to imply things that I directly already said were not true such as claiming my catboi read shifted due to FL.

Which in a multiball is ridiculous -> I'm going to push legitimate scumreads as scum. Butter is trying to accuse me of TMI in a place where TMI is not applicable because they are stuck in a singleball scum mindset.

I'm frankly not good at casing people but I know blatant when I see it and butter has oozed scum since I read their ISO.

I'm not planning to place a vote on you at this time. Starting a wagon on you at this point doesn't seem beneficial or likely to go anywhere. I still prefer a Nashville Dreams elimination. I do scumread you, and that's not new. I scumread Tracer Bullet as well. Don't act like you've caught onto some plan, I think my reads have been fairly clear, and you have done nothing to improve my read on your slot. You still haven't said what in my ISO you found scummy. You seem like the type of player who will spam the thread with new points to drown out any legitimate criticism. I never accused you of TMI either, so your point about me putting words in your mouth is ironic.

you arent trying to sort me rofl.

You aren't trying to sort me. You came in deciding to scumread me and have failed to support that in any way, and are twisting things to fit the narrative that is convenient to you. I was already scumreading your slot, but was willing to give the replacement a chance, and then you immediately start doing scummy things. I'm not sure how you expect me to sort you any differently than I was before you came in.

[catboi]

butter - I see an implication that you have catboi as a townread in recentish posts but you have not stated it. What IS your read on catboi?

I had catboi as a townread early, found Flavor's initial case compelling, and found catboi's response to some of Flavor's casing less than compelling. However, I struggle with the read as when I read catboi's posts, there's a lot of them where it just feels like a genuine town reaction. I know that he's a strong scum player and likely is good at creating that sort of reaction, so I should be careful to use that sort of gutread as a basis. I also disagree with some of his pushes, such as the ones on Norwegianboy and Wallflower. I would say that at this point I have him as slightly leaning scum, but not as strongly as most of my other scumreads.

I should address this: Why exactly do you have me as leaning scum now? Because you disagree with some of my scumreads?

It's not exactly that I disagree with the reads, it's more that I found the pushes on them to be suspicious, especially the one on Wallflower. A lot of your reactions have felt genuine, but some of the ones in response to her feel forced. And as explained in 2462, I felt like your case on Flavor Leaf was too focused on how Flavor Leaf was capable of doing certain things as scum, or how there was a possible scum motivation behind his actions, but not about why those actions are

more likely

to come from him if he's scum. With most people, I wouldn't find that subtle difference in a case to be suspicious, but I've played with you before and I know that is a sticking point for you. It's something that I would expect you to be thinking about, especially when looking at a strong player like Flavor Leaf, but perhaps not something that you would care to emphasize if your only goal was to convince others. I also found your response to my thoughts to be rather poor and not at all how I would expect you to respond as town. In the grand scheme of things, these reasons are not terribly strong. I don't feel like I have a terribly strong read on you. If I were sorting into town, null, and scum, I'd probably put you in null. But if I were sorting into town, nulltown, nullscum, and scum, I'd put you in nullscum.

I think your expectations of me as town are out of touch with reality and you're holding me to odd standards. I'll be perfectly honest: I find wallflower's playstyle obnoxious and it's really colored my reactions. Your only experience with me is n the newbie queue where I

try

to tone it down but out here I don't really hold back, so if someone is making attacks on me I feel are crappy I'm not going to hold back. I think your evaluation of my case is just plain wrong? I know I said we were at an impassse on this but given it's the basis of your read...I thought the way he was trying to get mastina voted was +scum, and that his explanation for his scumread on her did not have sufficient strength to justify voting her for elimination. That's actually really simple to grasp and I feel like even if you say "yeah I don't see it" I don't know why you would consider it

scummy

. And if you think it's

scummy

that I sniped at you because you disagreed with me on FL, then I'm not really sure you understand my playstyle that well.

[Flavor Leaf]

mena can read catboi

mena found catboi scum

catboi recognizes mena scum too, but also recognizes that mena isnt pushing them.

they know.

Earlier Catboi was trying to make a meta case for Menalque, but the case was Menalque was town reading them all game, but then reevaluated later in the game, and turned on ScumCatboi.

[SCP 682]

oh fuck i just remembered the exact reason why i started to pursue catboi scum
like

when i replaced in i read pooky's reads
he had catboi scum
at the time i skimmed catboi and laughed at it and said nah

later on i was like hmm well pooky actually kinda better at town than me let me see(after I saw catboi egg on klick to vote nash)

so i was like ok *reads catboi's iso more closely*
*sees some subtly sus shit regarding positioning*
*sees the type of presence they have in the game*
so i start to scumread catboi at that point.

yate

when going back to reread butter's iso and ctrl-Fing catboi it also looked really weird how butter was treating catboi and people who were pushing them.

thus why that kinda evolved into my more up front reads atm.

boom gotem

[SCP 682]

butter is angling to place a vote on me btw - its being telegraphed in trying to find things that are "scummy looking" that are just normal town progression and framing it as scum.

Trying to call me a liar for how I reached my reads is quite frankly the most blatant way they've pushed the idea that I am scum here without explicitly stating it.

Yes of course I see something that reminds me of something else and I later on go and verify taht for myself because I'm not going to trust the human brain to 100% remember shit.

There is a lot of putting words into my mouth that don't exist - trying to imply things that I directly already said were not true such as claiming my catboi read shifted due to FL.

Which in a multiball is ridiculous -> I'm going to push legitimate scumreads as scum. Butter is trying to accuse me of TMI in a place where TMI is not applicable because they are stuck in a singleball scum mindset.

I'm frankly not good at casing people but I know blatant when I see it and butter has oozed scum since I read their ISO.

I'm not planning to place a vote on you at this time. Starting a wagon on you at this point doesn't seem beneficial or likely to go anywhere. I still prefer a Nashville Dreams elimination. I do scumread you, and that's not new. I scumread Tracer Bullet as well. Don't act like you've caught onto some plan, I think my reads have been fairly clear, and you have done nothing to improve my read on your slot. You still haven't said what in my ISO you found scummy. You seem like the type of player who will spam the thread with new points to drown out any legitimate criticism. I never accused you of TMI either, so your point about me putting words in your mouth is ironic.

you arent trying to sort me rofl.

You aren't trying to sort me. You came in deciding to scumread me and have failed to support that in any way, and are twisting things to fit the narrative that is convenient to you. I was already scumreading your slot, but was willing to give the replacement a chance, and then you immediately start doing scummy things. I'm not sure how you expect me to sort you any differently than I was before you came in.

i think going back and reading an old game of yours to get a better grasp of your meta and cross reference is actually exactly doing sorting but hey keep trying to make up shit
see how far it gets you

lim all liars!

[catboi]

Hey SCP, mind telling me how I'm being "too narrow"???

I already discarded that part. I jumped the gun but it overall doesn't override the tonal/instigatory vibe I get from you. I feel your thread presence is calculated in a way that is scum motivated.

now you're just shifting reasons again, if you felt it was off why not just say that? Why does my reads list look like I'm hunting for the other team exactly?

Also want an answer to this!

the readslist thing is a stretch bc of how my reads are and how I have the teams lined up in my head right now where I feel you have the half of the scum caught that I believe are unaligned with you for the most part.

that still doesn't make sense to me and it feels like you're making stuff up to see what sticks

[Flavor Leaf]

lim all liars!

no.

[Flavor Leaf]

Not that I lie, I just true claim things that aren't real.

[SCP 682]

Hey SCP, mind telling me how I'm being "too narrow"???

I already discarded that part. I jumped the gun but it overall doesn't override the tonal/instigatory vibe I get from you. I feel your thread presence is calculated in a way that is scum motivated.

now you're just shifting reasons again, if you felt it was off why not just say that? Why does my reads list look like I'm hunting for the other team exactly?

Also want an answer to this!

the readslist thing is a stretch bc of how my reads are and how I have the teams lined up in my head right now where I feel you have the half of the scum caught that I believe are unaligned with you for the most part.

that still doesn't make sense to me and it feels like you're making stuff up to see what sticks

ok then vote me

[catboi]

mena can read catboi

mena found catboi scum

catboi recognizes mena scum too, but also recognizes that mena isnt pushing them.

they know.

I mean I haven't been town against mena-scum but in my observation the last few timeshe rlled scum he was super unmotivated, including PYP, and he feels very much not that here, so

I also don't think your argument about him tunneling is a good one because again recent experience with him as town suggests he isnt always going to do that on day 1

[SCP 682]

i gave u the honest answer and u said "that doesnt make sense"
like mf who cares if it doesnt make sense thats literally my thought process.
im autistic, many things dont make sense that i say to other people.

[catboi]

i gave u the honest answer and u said "that doesnt make sense"
like mf who cares if it doesnt make sense thats literally my thought process.
im autistic, many things dont make sense that i say to other people.

okay I'm sorry

I don't wanna go down this so I'll just stop here

[SCP 682]

mena can read catboi

mena found catboi scum

catboi recognizes mena scum too, but also recognizes that mena isnt pushing them.

they know.

I mean I haven't been town against mena-scum but in my observation the last few timeshe rlled scum he was super unmotivated, including PYP, and he feels very much not that here, so

I also don't think your argument about him tunneling is a good one because again recent experience with him as town suggests he isnt always going to do that on day 1

i think he comes off as unmotivated here so funny you bring that up because that is precisely the behavior i see here, and the reaction to my fos on him was that kind of unmotivated giving up rather than like being indignant about being read wrong or being curious as to how i reached that.

[catboi]

legitimately fuck you forever if you're saying that as scum though

[SCP 682]

rofl me reskimming mena and him thinking tracer was me

but yeah

[butterchurn]

butter - I see an implication that you have catboi as a townread in recentish posts but you have not stated it. What IS your read on catboi?

I had catboi as a townread early, found Flavor's initial case compelling, and found catboi's response to some of Flavor's casing less than compelling. However, I struggle with the read as when I read catboi's posts, there's a lot of them where it just feels like a genuine town reaction. I know that he's a strong scum player and likely is good at creating that sort of reaction, so I should be careful to use that sort of gutread as a basis. I also disagree with some of his pushes, such as the ones on Norwegianboy and Wallflower. I would say that at this point I have him as slightly leaning scum, but not as strongly as most of my other scumreads.

I should address this: Why exactly do you have me as leaning scum now? Because you disagree with some of my scumreads?

It's not exactly that I disagree with the reads, it's more that I found the pushes on them to be suspicious, especially the one on Wallflower. A lot of your reactions have felt genuine, but some of the ones in response to her feel forced. And as explained in 2462, I felt like your case on Flavor Leaf was too focused on how Flavor Leaf was capable of doing certain things as scum, or how there was a possible scum motivation behind his actions, but not about why those actions are

more likely

to come from him if he's scum. With most people, I wouldn't find that subtle difference in a case to be suspicious, but I've played with you before and I know that is a sticking point for you. It's something that I would expect you to be thinking about, especially when looking at a strong player like Flavor Leaf, but perhaps not something that you would care to emphasize if your only goal was to convince others. I also found your response to my thoughts to be rather poor and not at all how I would expect you to respond as town. In the grand scheme of things, these reasons are not terribly strong. I don't feel like I have a terribly strong read on you. If I were sorting into town, null, and scum, I'd probably put you in null. But if I were sorting into town, nulltown, nullscum, and scum, I'd put you in nullscum.

I think your expectations of me as town are out of touch with reality and you're holding me to odd standards. I'll be perfectly honest: I find wallflower's playstyle obnoxious and it's really colored my reactions. Your only experience with me is n the newbie queue where I

try

to tone it down but out here I don't really hold back, so if someone is making attacks on me I feel are crappy I'm not going to hold back. I think your evaluation of my case is just plain wrong? I know I said we were at an impassse on this but given it's the basis of your read...I thought the way he was trying to get mastina voted was +scum, and that his explanation for his scumread on her did not have sufficient strength to justify voting her for elimination. That's actually really simple to grasp and I feel like even if you say "yeah I don't see it" I don't know why you would consider it

scummy

. And if you think it's

scummy

that I sniped at you because you disagreed with me on FL, then I'm not really sure you understand my playstyle that well.

For the points about different playstyle, that may be true. When I was trying to sort you in that game I did read through a couple of your games outside the Newbie queue, so I don't think that's my only impression of your play, but you're right that it is the main one. I can accept that there could be differences from what I expect town!catboi to do from what town!catboi is actually like. As for the case, I just went and read it again to see if I was missing anything. I don't think I was. Your reasoning for why his mastina scumread does not have sufficient strength is that without the preflip associations, there isn't much support to his scumread. But I don't think you can take away the preflip associations, because that is how Flavor Leaf plays. So I think that point is wrong. And most of the post is fitting his actions to a narrative of how he may act when he is scum. I don't see anything in there that is explaining why he is more likely to do it as scum. To me, that set off alarm bells, because it made it feel like you cared more about coming up with a narrative and convincing people that Flavor Leaf was acting in a scummy way, and not like you actually came to a conclusion that his behavior was more likely to come from scum. Your response I found suspicious because it was dismissive and not engaging with any of the criticism, which made it feel like you only cared about your goal of convincing people and not about whether your reasoning was good.

[SCP 682]

do you actually know that or is this just a hypothetical of if you told me that?

The first.

okay second question: is this like

knowing

knowledge, or "I really don't think it sounds like koba" knowledge?

I think Malcolm is town

yeah, malc is old news, you should hop on the hot new bnuuy wagon!

like

pulling this post kinda out of the air

but its posts like these

with the tone where its like
"hee hee look at me im so friendly trust me please do what i want " not like the kind of town way of going about it ?? idk how to explain it its like a kind of tonal thing I've noticed is a pretty consistent scum thing for people who have a more edgy townplay in the sense of being aggro.

[butterchurn]

butter is angling to place a vote on me btw - its being telegraphed in trying to find things that are "scummy looking" that are just normal town progression and framing it as scum.

Trying to call me a liar for how I reached my reads is quite frankly the most blatant way they've pushed the idea that I am scum here without explicitly stating it.

Yes of course I see something that reminds me of something else and I later on go and verify taht for myself because I'm not going to trust the human brain to 100% remember shit.

There is a lot of putting words into my mouth that don't exist - trying to imply things that I directly already said were not true such as claiming my catboi read shifted due to FL.

Which in a multiball is ridiculous -> I'm going to push legitimate scumreads as scum. Butter is trying to accuse me of TMI in a place where TMI is not applicable because they are stuck in a singleball scum mindset.

I'm frankly not good at casing people but I know blatant when I see it and butter has oozed scum since I read their ISO.

I'm not planning to place a vote on you at this time. Starting a wagon on you at this point doesn't seem beneficial or likely to go anywhere. I still prefer a Nashville Dreams elimination. I do scumread you, and that's not new. I scumread Tracer Bullet as well. Don't act like you've caught onto some plan, I think my reads have been fairly clear, and you have done nothing to improve my read on your slot. You still haven't said what in my ISO you found scummy. You seem like the type of player who will spam the thread with new points to drown out any legitimate criticism. I never accused you of TMI either, so your point about me putting words in your mouth is ironic.

you arent trying to sort me rofl.

You aren't trying to sort me. You came in deciding to scumread me and have failed to support that in any way, and are twisting things to fit the narrative that is convenient to you. I was already scumreading your slot, but was willing to give the replacement a chance, and then you immediately start doing scummy things. I'm not sure how you expect me to sort you any differently than I was before you came in.

i think going back and reading an old game of yours to get a better grasp of your meta and cross reference is actually exactly doing sorting but hey keep trying to make up shit
see how far it gets you

lim all liars!

I don't, because to me it looks like you were looking for something to substantiate your initial claim, only to realize that there was nothing to support it, and had to pivot to find a different reason. And I think that me analyzing your progression of reads to see if they come from genuine town or opportunistic scum is actually exactly doing sorting but hey keep trying to make up shit

[SCP 682]

Yes. My process is always like this.

I see something i find suspicious->
I dig deeper see if that correlates to more thing->
if i find more evidence, bring it up->
if i find counter evidence, drop the case

its scumhunting 101

[SCP 682]

towncase yourself if you think you're so blatantly town that it should be impossible for me to think you are scum upon reading your ISO.

[butterchurn]

You didn't drop the case though, you just went and found another reason. It's the same thing you did with catboi. That's what I find suspicious.