Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[butterchurn]

towncase yourself if you think you're so blatantly town that it should be impossible for me to think you are scum upon reading your ISO.

This is a strawman, I never said it should be impossible for you to think I'm scum. I specifically asked you multiple times what in my ISO made you suspicious so that I could evaluate whether it was a genuine read or not and you have given me exactly nothing, and have deflected and distracted constantly.

[SCP 682]

You didn't drop the case though, you just went and found another reason. It's the same thing you did with catboi. That's what I find suspicious.

me, having a game up my sleeve where I do exactly this on replace in to case scum after I nailed them

[SCP 682]

I will give you tonight to think about how you fucked up trying to come after me in this way.

But also -> the perspective that you think scum need to be making shit up.

i think you are scum for scumfuckily defending another slot I think is tied to you. not because of how I think you are approaching your reads - other than the one on me which is a poor omgus to discredit me.

oh boy i feel so giddy having so many caught scum right now in my hands

[catboi]

mena can read catboi

mena found catboi scum

catboi recognizes mena scum too, but also recognizes that mena isnt pushing them.

they know.

I mean I haven't been town against mena-scum but in my observation the last few timeshe rlled scum he was super unmotivated, including PYP, and he feels very much not that here, so

I also don't think your argument about him tunneling is a good one because again recent experience with him as town suggests he isnt always going to do that on day 1

i think he comes off as unmotivated here so funny you bring that up because that is precisely the behavior i see here, and the reaction to my fos on him was that kind of unmotivated giving up rather than like being indignant about being read wrong or being curious as to how i reached that.

I have to say I don't see it even on a reread of his ISO but in genera I'm forming my reads from impressions rather than sitting down and really scrutinizing everything. I feel like this is unhelpful because we're speaking in generalizations and not getting anything across to one another. I don't feel like going full effort towncasing here when he's not an elimination candidate but I realize this makes it harder to communicate what I am thinking to you

Could you just for a moment imagine I could possibly be town who has a different read from you, and I will talk to you under the presumption you could be town, and we get into actual specifics about the read? I would like to understand your thinking, to see if there's something I'm missing or not

[Flavor Leaf]

@Butter - For what it's worth, they did explain their read pretty well in the monkery, but I do think SPC is falling apart in the game thread.

You've been very fence sitting, and you've been defending both Catboi and myself. I put you in the Catboi Cover Crew even way back when.

I see a very clear obvious link between you and Catboi to the point I specifically don't think it's happening.

[SCP 682]

mena can read catboi

mena found catboi scum

catboi recognizes mena scum too, but also recognizes that mena isnt pushing them.

they know.

I mean I haven't been town against mena-scum but in my observation the last few timeshe rlled scum he was super unmotivated, including PYP, and he feels very much not that here, so

I also don't think your argument about him tunneling is a good one because again recent experience with him as town suggests he isnt always going to do that on day 1

i think he comes off as unmotivated here so funny you bring that up because that is precisely the behavior i see here, and the reaction to my fos on him was that kind of unmotivated giving up rather than like being indignant about being read wrong or being curious as to how i reached that.

I have to say I don't see it even on a reread of his ISO but in genera I'm forming my reads from impressions rather than sitting down and really scrutinizing everything. I feel like this is unhelpful because we're speaking in generalizations and not getting anything across to one another. I don't feel like going full effort towncasing here when he's not an elimination candidate but I realize this makes it harder to communicate what I am thinking to you

Could you just for a moment imagine I could possibly be town who has a different read from you, and I will talk to you under the presumption you could be town, and we get into actual specifics about the read? I would like to understand your thinking, to see if there's something I'm missing or not

sure

i mean in this early game in a multiball even if youre scum i can help you catch the opposite team anyways so quid pro quo goes a long way

i do think however that there is possibly a world where butter is spewing you scum but also when i reread the butter scum game i saw they were abusing townies pushing townies to preemptively set themselves up so they could be townreading the pushee(you) and trying to position themselves to push people pushing you.

[Flavor Leaf]

thank you for shopping at mcdonalds, have a good night, and a ba da ba ba ba

[catboi]

For the points about different playstyle, that may be true. When I was trying to sort you in that game I did read through a couple of your games outside the Newbie queue, so I don't think that's my only impression of your play, but you're right that it is the main one. I can accept that there could be differences from what I expect town!catboi to do from what town!catboi is actually like. As for the case, I just went and read it again to see if I was missing anything. I don't think I was. Your reasoning for why his mastina scumread does not have sufficient strength is that without the preflip associations, there isn't much support to his scumread. But I don't think you can take away the preflip associations, because that is how Flavor Leaf plays. So I think that point is wrong. And most of the post is fitting his actions to a narrative of how he may act when he is scum. I don't see anything in there that is explaining why he is more likely to do it as scum. To me, that set off alarm bells, because it made it feel like you cared more about coming up with a narrative and convincing people that Flavor Leaf was acting in a scummy way, and not like you actually came to a conclusion that his behavior was more likely to come from scum. Your response I found suspicious because it was dismissive and not engaging with any of the criticism, which made it feel like you only cared about your goal of convincing people and not about whether your reasoning was good.

Yeah UI mean that's just the problem I think your criticism doesn't change my thinking that much, sorry. "that's just how he plays" doesn't do a lot for me because in general I feel he has a stronger thought process as town where here it felt like the push on mastina was entirely unsavory. Even now, I can see we're getting

absolutely nowhere

with this, so I think you can kind of see why I responded the way I did? I think you're being naive and your counterarguments don't really hold water for me. I'm not obligated keep fighting with you over that read and it doesn't make me scum.

[Save The Dragons]

thank you for shopping at mcdonalds, have a good night, and a ba da ba ba ba

Sir this is a Wendy's

[catboi]

do you actually know that or is this just a hypothetical of if you told me that?

The first.

okay second question: is this like

knowing

knowledge, or "I really don't think it sounds like koba" knowledge?

I think Malcolm is town

yeah, malc is old news, you should hop on the hot new bnuuy wagon!

like

pulling this post kinda out of the air

but its posts like these

with the tone where its like
"hee hee look at me im so friendly trust me please do what i want " not like the kind of town way of going about it ?? idk how to explain it its like a kind of tonal thing I've noticed is a pretty consistent scum thing for people who have a more edgy townplay in the sense of being aggro.

okay for real I don't think him making cheeky posts trying to get people to follow him is scum-indicative for him at all given I've seen him talk like that as town

[catboi]

sure

i mean in this early game in a multiball even if youre scum i can help you catch the opposite team anyways so quid pro quo goes a long way

i do think however that there is possibly a world where butter is spewing you scum but also when i reread the butter scum game i saw they were abusing townies pushing townies to preemptively set themselves up so they could be townreading the pushee(you) and trying to position themselves to push people pushing you.

Yeah I haven't really looked at butterchurn's scum game and I understand he's competent since he's been playing a long time but his play hasn't seemed out of line with his town game. Is that the only game of his you've seen since you modded it or have you seen him as town?

[Flavor Leaf]

yet when i do it i'm manipulative and controlling

[Wallflower]

I think it’s worth pointing out that this is the second time catboi has used me as an excuse for their actions.

First they used me “tunnel”ing them as an excuse for their scumread on me.
Now they are using my “obnoxious” playstyle as an excuse in reply to butterchurn’s accusation that their responses to me have felt forced.

This deferral of responsibility is scummy. It’s not coming from a mindset of “I know you’re wrong because I’m town” and instead communicating a message of “you’re wrong because wallflower made me do it”

[Flavor Leaf]

What about WallFlower is obnoxious?

[Wallflower]

I think I’ve been identified as a convenient scapegoat because of certain aspects of my posting (e.g. talking about catboi’s whiskers being in a twist) and a lack of reputation here.

[Flavor Leaf]

I do think if catboi scum, they think you're obnoxious still.

[Wallflower]

I do think if catboi scum, they think you're obnoxious still.

Yeah you could be right there. I can’t help but feel as if they are responding very differently to me from how they would if I were someone with a reputation on MS, but I’m not going to perseverate on that

[catboi]

I think it’s worth pointing out that this is the second time catboi has used me as an excuse for their actions.

First they used me “tunnel”ing them as an excuse for their scumread on me.
Now they are using my “obnoxious” playstyle as an excuse in reply to butterchurn’s accusation that their responses to me have felt forced.

This deferral of responsibility is scummy. It’s not coming from a mindset of “I know you’re wrong because I’m town” and instead communicating a message of “you’re wrong because wallflower made me do it”

That's not what I'm saying at all but okay. I was going to type something really mean here but I won't. I don't like the way you've spoken to me and it has felt on multiple occasions like you have intentionally been trying to get under my skin and use that as evidence of my guilt. I don't know if it's bad play or tactical on your part but it's been very frustrating. The thing is

I cannot actually respond

to an accusation that my response is "forced" because that is based entirely on feelings - the only thing I can say is "no yu're wrong", and that isn't very interesting or helpful at all

[SCP 682]

VOTE: Wallflower

i wanna park here overnight actually.

go nuts yall

i stayed up late for this game, no more

[SCP 682]

sure

i mean in this early game in a multiball even if youre scum i can help you catch the opposite team anyways so quid pro quo goes a long way

i do think however that there is possibly a world where butter is spewing you scum but also when i reread the butter scum game i saw they were abusing townies pushing townies to preemptively set themselves up so they could be townreading the pushee(you) and trying to position themselves to push people pushing you.

Yeah I haven't really looked at butterchurn's scum game and I understand he's competent since he's been playing a long time but his play hasn't seemed out of line with his town game. Is that the only game of his you've seen since you modded it or have you seen him as town?

twas strictly the game i modded. i do follow along games though and i track each move typically and see what is going on so effectively games i mod are ones I am "scum" in where I am informed i guess? in the sense of absorbing meta.

[catboi]

like

pulling this post kinda out of the air

but its posts like these

with the tone where its like
"hee hee look at me im so friendly trust me please do what i want " not like the kind of town way of going about it ?? idk how to explain it its like a kind of tonal thing I've noticed is a pretty consistent scum thing for people who have a more edgy townplay in the sense of being aggro.

okay for real I don't think him making cheeky posts trying to get people to follow him is scum-indicative for him at all given I've seen him talk like that as town

I went and checked open 798 thinking he'd made a post like that but didn't come up with anything on a quick search but I still don't feel like that's a scumtell for him

[Wallflower]

I think it’s worth pointing out that this is the second time catboi has used me as an excuse for their actions.

First they used me “tunnel”ing them as an excuse for their scumread on me.
Now they are using my “obnoxious” playstyle as an excuse in reply to butterchurn’s accusation that their responses to me have felt forced.

This deferral of responsibility is scummy. It’s not coming from a mindset of “I know you’re wrong because I’m town” and instead communicating a message of “you’re wrong because wallflower made me do it”

That's not what I'm saying at all but okay. I was going to type something really mean here but I won't. I don't like the way you've spoken to me and it has felt on multiple occasions like you have intentionally been trying to get under my skin and use that as evidence of my guilt. I don't know if it's bad play or tactical on your part but it's been very frustrating. The thing is

I cannot actually respond

to an accusation that my response is "forced" because that is based entirely on feelings - the only thing I can say is "no yu're wrong", and that isn't very interesting or helpful at all

I appreciate this post, thanks. I will concede that there may have been an aspect of me trying to get under your skin in the very early day 1 posts, but that very much has not been an intention of mine since after the V/LA. I have honestly felt that in a lot of posts you have been needlessly rude to me and I hadn’t been able to work out a reason beyond me daring to think that you are scum for reasons you think are bad.

Even here, the “I was going to type something really mean here but I won’t” feels unnecessary. I don’t know what I’ve done to justify something really mean.

[SCP 682]

like

pulling this post kinda out of the air

but its posts like these

with the tone where its like
"hee hee look at me im so friendly trust me please do what i want " not like the kind of town way of going about it ?? idk how to explain it its like a kind of tonal thing I've noticed is a pretty consistent scum thing for people who have a more edgy townplay in the sense of being aggro.

okay for real I don't think him making cheeky posts trying to get people to follow him is scum-indicative for him at all given I've seen him talk like that as town

I went and checked open 798 thinking he'd made a post like that but didn't come up with anything on a quick search but I still don't feel like that's a scumtell for him

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=32813
I raise you, Open 841

[catboi]

sure

i mean in this early game in a multiball even if youre scum i can help you catch the opposite team anyways so quid pro quo goes a long way

i do think however that there is possibly a world where butter is spewing you scum but also when i reread the butter scum game i saw they were abusing townies pushing townies to preemptively set themselves up so they could be townreading the pushee(you) and trying to position themselves to push people pushing you.

Yeah I haven't really looked at butterchurn's scum game and I understand he's competent since he's been playing a long time but his play hasn't seemed out of line with his town game. Is that the only game of his you've seen since you modded it or have you seen him as town?

twas strictly the game i modded. i do follow along games though and i track each move typically and see what is going on so effectively games i mod are ones I am "scum" in where I am informed i guess? in the sense of absorbing meta.

Okay figures

I feel like we're coming at this from exact opposite sides of the coin here? Like you're coming in going "this is exactly like his scumgame I saw" and I'm going "this is exactly like his towngame I saw" and neither of us has the full picture. Obviously one of us is wrong and biasing their view based on having limited information but I don't know who that is yet. Would be willing to go over what you find to be off about butterchurn's posting.

[Flavor Leaf]

almost like meta from 1 game sample is bad or something