Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Malcolm

What makes you look at the voting patterns so far and make you think I am mafia? Why do I sit off both the Scorpious and Italiano wagon, making a strong defence for both? I was defending Jackson as town from as soon as they made their claim because it should have been pretty obvious in retrospect that they were town. If you are town you should be looking at Kitty or HEM here, unless you have an alternative idea at all.

It’s actually pretty difficult here to look at voting patterns alone. We need a scum narrative. I could paint almost anyone as scum based on votes.

[MathBlade]

Results please

A simple jailkeeper in a world where a gunsmith and tracker already exists and then claiming preemptively with a dash of shade. nope not suspicious at all.

'
We've had multiple preemptive claims this game. A claim when I'm on E-2 is not preemptive. I'll be busy at points today, how am I meant to guarantee I'm not automatically eliminated without a chance to claim or assert my case?

It very much is. You’d need to look at who is on and who is off. That was way too early for a claim if you’re towb

[MathBlade]

let me get this straight

you are a simple jailkeeper in a world where here had already been two investigatives
you had 2 days straight clear of KittyTacky, and they're still your top suspect
you think i'm scum because i hammered two townies, and i forced your claim — even though you preemptively claimed

am i misrepping you?

VOTE: Malcolm

What makes you look at the voting patterns so far and make you think I am mafia? Why do I sit off both the Scorpious and Italiano wagon, making a strong defence for both? I was defending Jackson as town from as soon as they made their claim because it should have been pretty obvious in retrospect that they were town. If you are town you should be looking at Kitty or HEM here, unless you have an alternative idea at all.

Because I think you're a deep wolf. Your play is way too squeaky clean to still be alive. Sitting off both mis-elim wagons and claiming to have defended them doesn't mean much if they still get voted out, it just means you don't take any blame for the wagon. And honestly I don't think it makes any sense from a town perspective to confidently town read either of them, there were plenty of reasons to doubt that they'd flip green. And besides that, town casing someone and putting actual effort into trying to stop a mis-elim are two completely different things. You did the former but I don't remember you actively trying to stop people from voting out your town reads.

Additionally, why would scum kill JV? I town read him too, but he offered anti-town utility with his role and had a generally abrasive tone/attitude that made people want to vote him. The NK just seems like a basic "kill the PRs" NK, but he wasn't confirmed and he didn't have any actual power. And the scum team clearly believed we had an actual Vig (hence why Andres tried to claim Vig instead of Doc), so why didn't they go PR hunting or at least try to kill consensus town reads?

Also, if you think the voting patterns are alignment indicative, then why aren't you suspicious of Gamma? He was also on both mis-elim wagons.

Agreed on all of this. Like 100%

VOTE: Malcolm

[MathBlade]

Me + JV would have possibly been a shit fight for pages. I don’t think scum kill a backup vigilante here especially if Roden’s theory of a rolecop is true.

I can’t wrap my head around Malcolm possibly being town here.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think you assuming that just because you are a gunsmith means that a traitor is more likely. Because it is not, what's more likely is it's used as a cop that can RP nwot a ytliug-eslaf role or a Mafia doctor exists, or have it purely as a way to not have super obvious checks similar to how Cop would in a normal. I do not see how you've come to the conclusion of no traitors existing.

I also feel like this is quite a townie post from Jackson here. Presuming Koopa is town if they are making incorrect assumptions about the gamestate mafia has no reason to correct them and inform us to a greater extent that this may be incorrect. Also - while it's not impossible, I'm not sure mafia are as likely to casually speculate in this thread on what roles will be in the game when they have more info than the rest of us.

JV pointed out Koopa may be wrong re how they perceive the role alignments available in the game, I don't think mafia does that and it gives him some town points from me. If Koopa is wrong on this, why correct them? If they're right, seems risky to try a misdirect for available roles in the game.

Jackson's claim seems reasonable, insisted this morning their post about Koopa potentially reading the roles then was very townie and incredibly unlikely to come from mafia given the circumstances. Will read back for reactions to see how that was pushed in a while.

Since towntells were mentioned, here I am pointing out on D1 that Jackson's claim was likely townie on the basis that they had pointed out incorrect assumptions being made by Koopa. There isn't much need for mafia to do this - it would have been beneficial for mafia to let doubt fester about Jackson's role in the game. But because I'm town, and because I thought Jackson's claim was fundamentally town, I pointed that out.

[MalcolmTucker]

The presumption on me being mafia here is essentially based on the idea that I've spent all game literally doing things that are the antithesis of being beneficial to the mafia because it makes me look more like a townie. I get that can be a helpful approach for a while but it only tends to work for so long. And when there are other roles in the game that can potentially reveal your identity anyway it would have been possible for all my work to be undone anyway if I'd been mafia playing that way. It doesn't make sense.

I know wagons alone do not tell a player's allegiance but fundamentally it is quite remarkable I'm currently under more suspicion than HEM who has now twice hammered townies and Kitty who continually and almost exclusively pushed players who turned out to be town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also - as to why I revealed my role, I was on E-2 and knew I was going to be inactive for a good 5/6 hours today because I was busy. I've seen wagons pushed through before more quickly than expected and I was wary that could potentially happen here when it's almost certain there will be two scum on said wagon because this is their best chance to get it down to 3v2.

It's also D3 now and we're getting towards the endgame - my perspective here is that we need to know as many townies as possible in order to try and win the game, and it's better you now know my role.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also - without wanting to make myself sound like an idiot, I'm not necessarily that good at this game and wouldn't really feel confident claiming a role so early on if I did not have one - I am inherently a very risk-averse player and would almost inevitably not pursue such a gambit until I was on the verge of going out. If I'm mafia I would still have a teammate who based on gameplay would still have a chance of winning; if I'm lying, you can see there's nobody blatantly pushing me here who is likely to be my teammate as some sort of bold attempt at a feint.

Even my checks are inherently honest when you think about it given my suspicions and reads so far. I continue to suspect Kitty given my reads on them so far that they are scum and did not make the kills; why would I admit that I jailed Kitty TWICE without success if I was scum wanting to paint them as being likely mafia? It wouldn't make any sense.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Malcolm

What makes you look at the voting patterns so far and make you think I am mafia? Why do I sit off both the Scorpious and Italiano wagon, making a strong defence for both? I was defending Jackson as town from as soon as they made their claim because it should have been pretty obvious in retrospect that they were town. If you are town you should be looking at Kitty or HEM here, unless you have an alternative idea at all.

Because I think you're a deep wolf. Your play is way too squeaky clean to still be alive. Sitting off both mis-elim wagons and claiming to have defended them doesn't mean much if they still get voted out, it just means you don't take any blame for the wagon. And honestly I don't think it makes any sense from a town perspective to confidently town read either of them, there were plenty of reasons to doubt that they'd flip green. And besides that, town casing someone and putting actual effort into trying to stop a mis-elim are two completely different things. You did the former but I don't remember you actively trying to stop people from voting out your town reads.

Additionally, why would scum kill JV? I town read him too, but he offered anti-town utility with his role and had a generally abrasive tone/attitude that made people want to vote him.

The NK just seems like a basic "kill the PRs" NK, but he wasn't confirmed and he didn't have any actual power. And the scum team clearly believed we had an actual Vig (hence why Andres tried to claim Vig instead of Doc), so why didn't they go PR hunting or at least try to kill consensus town reads?

Also, if you think the voting patterns are alignment indicative, then why aren't you suspicious of Gamma? He was also on both mis-elim wagons.

Also - on this, I think scum killing Jackson was perfectly sensible, Jackson had claimed a role and was TR'd following that by a number of us. I'd have absolutely refused to go there. This just feels like too complex a theory and gives me far too much credit as a player. It's just so, so much more sensible to look at players who keep hammering or eliminating townies here.

I'm always wary of relying too much on meta, but take a look at my record - in the first game I played scum on here I lasted about a day before accidentally posting a message intended for my scum PT in the wrong thread, effectively outing me and seeing me eliminated right away. Even if I were scum here I would not continually be doing things working against the advantage of scum like defending townies such as Scorpious and Italiano who were perfectly viable eliminations. It's hardly as if getting rid of either of them seems to have harmed Kitty or HEM here, is it?

[MalcolmTucker]

Me + JV would have possibly been a shit fight for pages. I don’t think scum kill a backup vigilante here especially if Roden’s theory of a rolecop is true.

I can’t wrap my head around Malcolm possibly being town here.

Again this feels very much like overthinking, scum probably killed Jackson because Jackson has a role, it's likely that simple.

[MalcolmTucker]

based on?

I got bad vibes from your earlier play and also I didn't like your reaction to JV's push. Not much to go off of but I don't scumread many people.

I'm sorry Italiano but you shouldn't have pushed NK15 after the claim. That's just sus amogus.

Well I still think there's at least one scum between HEM and Mala.

Once again I outlined during D3 why a vote on Italiano didn't make sense. You continue to take the lowest hanging fruit and use that to justify your vote but this is the second time it's seen you eliminate a townie. I think you're obvious mafia at this point.

VOTE: KittyTacky

Your reasoning made no sense. He was scummy, people agreed he was scummy, just because he was town doesn't make me mafia, because town is uninformed. I am not to blame for other townies' poor play getting them hanged.

Once again you continue to entirely ignore my line of argument here. I understand uninformed town make mistakes. I do so myself and did so in this game when I initially suspected NK15. My issue here is that you have continually used any example of poor townplay to jump on whoever is convenient because it's a useful way for mafia to look like town while still being able to eliminate a townie easily. That's why I suspect you and why I think you're mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm neutral on Malcolm, I'm not sure about the JK claim, there's a good amount of town power already flipped. I entertain the idea that he is simply wrong town.

He is in my lim pool but I am not jumping the gun with my vote so early into the day.

This also feels like some classic hedging as well. If Kitty is mafia they know my elimination is good for them but they don't want to seem as eager as other townies perhaps willing to eliminate me, because doing so would effectively out them as scum for the next turn.

I've thought HEM was mafia for most of the game, but now I've calmed down from that crappy exchange earlier a bit I'd still be willing to entertain the possibility of a Kitty/Math team here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Only issue with a Kitty/Math team would be they'd have to have been incredibly lucky with their kill choices to avoid being jailed.

[MalcolmTucker]

Kitty/Gamma seems unlikely, I remember Flavor being fairly keen on Kitty on D1 when they didn't need to be since Kitty hadn't come under much pressure at that point.

[MalcolmTucker]

Math - what do you think of Kitty? Likely to be mafia or no?

I think with HEM yes, with Italiano no.

I work by teams right now.

For example I see you and a JV team and I don’t like how JV is sidelining this. I’d like if JV asked more questions.

I think HEM and Italiano or HEM and Kitty are most likely

But I can’t shake the deep wolf vibe I feel and I don’t know if either qualifies or I am just paranoid.

Math - where are you on this? You stated you thought HEM/Kitty was a possibility if Italiano was not scum. JV, your other suspect, is now gone, and HEM/Kitty have been caught sitting on yet another town bandwagon with HEM hammering for the second time. Does HEM/Kitty not look more viable to you in that regard?

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

Whether this was for show or not depends on people’s perception. Me saying it wasn’t means absolutely nothing if people already see me as scum because it’s only fmpov. But for you to bring this up makes me feel even stronger about you as town, unless you are white knighting me which isn’t impossible, but this is a good point to bring up.

Here is Italiano - a confirmed townie - TR'ing me for my read of them. They are aware this could be mafia trying to buy credibility, but point out there was generally little self-gain in it for me as well - it was a genuine read on my part because I consistently said the Scorpious wagon was worth looking at.

[humaneatingmonkey]

No crumbs, MT?

[Malakittens]

math

i sheep u on mt

can u sheep me on HEM tm

pls

[humaneatingmonkey]

you know by sheeping math on mt that you'll also be sheeping me, hem, the person you want dead, on mt
why do you even want me dead in the first place?

[MalcolmTucker]

No crumbs, MT?

No, I didn't leave any because frankly I'm not good enough or subtle enough to do so without leaving myself completely open and exposed for elimination. I'd personally say my biggest towntell this game has perhaps being playing in a way that's a bit more confident and open in terms of my accusations and reads (despite still being cautious at times) because I was aware I'd be able to claim if needed and avoid being mislimmed daytime in a way that would be damaging to town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Apologise if a lot of my above posts read like a big long and incoherent rant but I think it's important town go back and read through my ISO and that of the players who are accusing me/who I'm accusing here. Ultimately:

- I TR'd Jackson before their claim
- I pointed out Scorpious' play wasn't conductive to mafia
- I made a strong case for why Italiano was town
- HEM has now opportunistically hammered two townies
- Kitty has consistently SR'd townies while ignoring reasons they were town
- I am frankly not good enough to fakeclaim in this situation
- I am not good enough to deep wolf here and continually stay of town bandwagons to clear myself

[humaneatingmonkey]

I'm finding it hard to believe your claim. You have also sat on my slot for all of the game. Do you understand how hard it is for me to see you as town here?

I'll ISO you later.

[MathBlade]

My eyes are blurring together at the big walls of text. I will check this late tonight after work.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also, the argument I've been deep wolfing by TR'ing eliminated townies such as Scorpious and Italiano also doesn't work for a couple more reasons.

My stances were consistent on both players. I expressed some suspicion on Italiano but then very much TR'd them after an ISO check. It's not like I had to do a major reversal of my previous stance. Same for Scorpious: I quizzed them on contradictions in their posts but identified that their playstyle was fundamentally town.

It's not as if either of the two were preordained eliminations either. I've suspected HEM and Kitty who have also been prime suspects. I have voted for both at various points. I've also expressed suspicion in Math. Some of them are necessarily town irrespective of my alignment. Roden's argument I am deep wolfing is predicated on the idea I have been incredibly, incredibly lucky (or unlucky, I guess) with my town townreads constantly being eliminated at the expense of townies I've suspected.

And to add to that - we know Andre was scum and that Andre was incredibly inactive. One scum can sit back and play a deep wolf/town style to a greater degree but I'm not sure this is recommended when one player is inactive - at some point scum ideally need to assert some control of the game.

[humaneatingmonkey]

HEM has now opportunistically hammered two townies

You keep painting it like that. Both slots I scumread, and both slots were wagons town wanted. Not hammering Italiano there would have likely lead the town towards my wagon. Would you say JV was scum for being in the same wagons as I am? Do you not think I'm good enough to distance from these town flips if I'm scum?