Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[MalcolmTucker]

I believe I'm on two so I'm giving you the perfect chance to get me out here. Self-hammering is not rule breaking or anything is it? Gets the turn over (we're probably not going to get much more done here) and lets you eliminate Kitty next turn to have a chance of winning the game.

[Roden]

Elimiante on wagon tomorrow on Scorpious town flip

At least I’m glad scum lost this game by shitwagoning me..

Gg

If I’m wrong about Roden then my bad, I don’t think so though. And maybe it was Leaf all along because I’m questioning Gamma’s alignment.

Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

Why are y'all so afraid of giving your real scum reads until moments before your death

I don't understand it

[Roden]

We still have time in the day, I'm not voting yet.

If you're town you don't get to say "maybe it's the players you're paranoid are pocketing you" and then go fuck off and die

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm town but fundamentally I struggle to see where else the votes will go here. Who else are you actually considering elimination?

[MalcolmTucker]

Elimiante on wagon tomorrow on Scorpious town flip

At least I’m glad scum lost this game by shitwagoning me..

Gg

If I’m wrong about Roden then my bad, I don’t think so though. And maybe it was Leaf all along because I’m questioning Gamma’s alignment.

Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

Why are y'all so afraid of giving your real scum reads until moments before your death

I don't understand it

What does this even mean? I've been quite clear about my reads for the entirety of the turn. I think Kitty is mafia. I've largely believed that since D1.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm just making the point that I don't want to seem overly arrogant by insisting I'm absolutely right and can't be wrong, because I expect I'll have made an incorrect assumption along the way, but I have been incredibly consistent in my belief that Kitty is not town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Fundamentally it's interesting here that I have been the main elimination candidate for the majority of the day but my vote count keeps hovering around two. I can only have one partner if I'm hypothetical mafia, and yet nobody is really strongly defending me either. Whatever is going on someone from mafia (I expect Kitty's partner) is wary to end this because they don't want to look suspect, and they fundamentally want town to do it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Roden, I also don't feel like you've really addressed how silly your whole deep wolfing theory on me is (the reason I've suspected you to be honest) given it's predicated on me having advanced foresight neither Kitty nor HEM would be eliminated at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also, you're arguing I don't get to just "go off and die" but what else am I expected to do here? I have outlined who I think is scum. I have given my reasoning for this and have acknowledged possible alternatives as well. I have claimed a role and yet clearly several players do not believe me. Unless you have an alternative wagon for suggestion there is nothing that is going to change here, I am going out, why are you reluctant to eliminate me now given you clearly don't believe my claim and clearly believe I am mafia? What do you want me to do here to prove that I am town?

[Roden]

Roden is transparently doing all they can here to clear Kitty, who is about to be heavily involved in a townie wagon for the third time in the game, this time for an identical reason to the exact logic they gave for their decision to eliminating Italiano still being a sensible one.

Are you talking about this post?

I feel like Kitty has been getting heat all game, but it never really seemed like they were in danger of getting eliminated.

Because this is me openly wondering why Kitty doesn't ever have the momentum to get wagon'd. I actually don't understand why they haven't been in any real danger this game. I went back and dug through Koopa's ISO since I remember they had a lot to say about Kitty, and though they went back and forth on their read before ending up with a town read there, when they did suspect Kitty there still wasn't much momentum there.

If you think Kitty is scum then why has there been so little pressure there overall? If I'm partnered with Kitty then why isn't anyone else seeing it? Do you think I'm just easily snowing HEM Math Gamma and Mala?

[MathBlade]

If we're thinking Mala is safe, then the game is essentially a lock, but I don't feel 100% about that, especially after what I pointed out very recently.

I agree with this thought. I am not sold on Mala town but you Me and Roden is a pretty good town block.

Mainly I think with the fact Malcolm hasn’t been turbo yeeted means Malcolm is scum or scum don’t want to elim Malcolm for some reason.

Like it’s weird.

Is there a reason you townread Malcolm Gamma?

Why would Malcolm have been turbo yeeted as town?

Malcolm would be turbo yeeted as town because my PoE is HEM/Malcolm/Kitty.
There hasn’t been a hammer and I have been the second vote for a while and no movements towards that.
So it’s more likely Malcolm is scum or scum don’t want him elimmed.

[MalcolmTucker]

If we're thinking Mala is safe, then the game is essentially a lock, but I don't feel 100% about that, especially after what I pointed out very recently.

I agree with this thought. I am not sold on Mala town but you Me and Roden is a pretty good town block.

Mainly I think with the fact Malcolm hasn’t been turbo yeeted means Malcolm is scum or scum don’t want to elim Malcolm for some reason.

Like it’s weird.

Is there a reason you townread Malcolm Gamma?

Why would Malcolm have been turbo yeeted as town?

Malcolm would be turbo yeeted as town because my PoE is HEM/Malcolm/Kitty.
There hasn’t been a hammer and I have been the second vote for a while and no movements towards that.
So it’s more likely Malcolm is scum or scum don’t want him elimmed.

This doesn't make sense though, I only have one partner. I am currently saying I will self-hammer when the third vote comes in if that is not considered game-breaking.

[MalcolmTucker]

Roden is transparently doing all they can here to clear Kitty, who is about to be heavily involved in a townie wagon for the third time in the game, this time for an identical reason to the exact logic they gave for their decision to eliminating Italiano still being a sensible one.

Are you talking about this post?

I feel like Kitty has been getting heat all game, but it never really seemed like they were in danger of getting eliminated.

Because this is me openly wondering why Kitty doesn't ever have the momentum to get wagon'd. I actually don't understand why they haven't been in any real danger this game. I went back and dug through Koopa's ISO since I remember they had a lot to say about Kitty, and though they went back and forth on their read before ending up with a town read there, when they did suspect Kitty there still wasn't much momentum there.

If you think Kitty is scum then why has there been so little pressure there overall? If I'm partnered with Kitty then why isn't anyone else seeing it? Do you think I'm just easily snowing HEM Math Gamma and Mala?

Because they are playing a clever scum game. They have largely stayed away from big central arguments like Flavor-Koopa on D1, floating in and out of the game with enough reads to be active but nothing controversial or against the grain which has brought them to prominent attention.

But this argument doesn't make sense as Kitty town anyway given I know I am town. Other than HEM, who really has been under sustained pressure that's still in the game, beyond Mala on D1? And that faded quickly and didn't come back. In recent turns it's nobody because frankly some of the wagons have been lazy. Is your argument here that someone inherently isn't mafia if they get to this point in the game without risk of elimination?

[MalcolmTucker]

You are, of course, able to put Kitty under pressure yourself Roden, but you haven't done so all game.

[Roden]

Elimiante on wagon tomorrow on Scorpious town flip

At least I’m glad scum lost this game by shitwagoning me..

Gg

If I’m wrong about Roden then my bad, I don’t think so though. And maybe it was Leaf all along because I’m questioning Gamma’s alignment.

Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

Why are y'all so afraid of giving your real scum reads until moments before your death

I don't understand it

What does this even mean? I've been quite clear about my reads for the entirety of the turn. I think Kitty is mafia. I've largely believed that since D1.

I'm just making the point that I don't want to seem overly arrogant by insisting I'm absolutely right and can't be wrong, because I expect I'll have made an incorrect assumption along the way, but I have been incredibly consistent in my belief that Kitty is not town.

Because if you're town, you're following the same pattern as the other mis-elims where you have a spicy scum read that you didn't feel confident in saying until the end where you won't have to back it up after you die.

Why do you think it could be Mala and/or Gamma? What struck you that would make you think if you're wrong about Kitty, it has to be them?

[MalcolmTucker]

Fundamentally I think one of our big problems here is most of D1 was taken up by an argument between two players, and D2 was then over instantly. Some players (I can include myself up until D4) have been able to largely coast through to a degree without all that much consistent suspicion. The only lengthy day where the wagon was consistently uncertain was probably D1, even on D3 players eventually settled on Italiano quite quickly.

[MathBlade]

I'd rather vote Malcolm, yes. I don't see much resistance to his elim though, which means if he's scum then he's getting bussed.

I think...maybe he's a Mafia Doctor, and that's why scum didn't fish there. So that he could claim a protective role later if necessary. It would also imply to the scum team that town have a Vig, so it would give multiple reasons for them to Vig hunt early on. It would also escape a guilty from the Gunsmith.

I thought about this but then there’s a few problems:

1) Doctor gets guiltied by the tracker.
2) Doctor who never saves a kill and never dies ends up being policy at some point.

So then the one PR would be a doctor and doesn’t help find the PRs claimed either.

[MalcolmTucker]

Elimiante on wagon tomorrow on Scorpious town flip

At least I’m glad scum lost this game by shitwagoning me..

Gg

If I’m wrong about Roden then my bad, I don’t think so though. And maybe it was Leaf all along because I’m questioning Gamma’s alignment.

Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

Why are y'all so afraid of giving your real scum reads until moments before your death

I don't understand it

What does this even mean? I've been quite clear about my reads for the entirety of the turn. I think Kitty is mafia. I've largely believed that since D1.

I'm just making the point that I don't want to seem overly arrogant by insisting I'm absolutely right and can't be wrong, because I expect I'll have made an incorrect assumption along the way, but I have been incredibly consistent in my belief that Kitty is not town.

Because if you're town, you're following the same pattern as the other mis-elims where you have a spicy scum read that you didn't feel confident in saying until the end where you won't have to back it up after you die.

Why do you think it could be Mala and/or Gamma? What struck you that would make you think if you're wrong about Kitty, it has to be them?

You're misunderstanding me, I don't think it is Mala or Gamma and have TR'd both slots for most of the game, I'm just acknowledging that I could be wrong in the sense that players constantly get things wrong in this game. I mentioned those two specifically because they're the only two slots here I have consistently TR'd and my reads are often far from perfect. I don't scum read either of them, I'm just aware there's technically nothing stopping them eventually being scum if I am wrong.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'd rather vote Malcolm, yes. I don't see much resistance to his elim though, which means if he's scum then he's getting bussed.

I think...maybe he's a Mafia Doctor, and that's why scum didn't fish there. So that he could claim a protective role later if necessary. It would also imply to the scum team that town have a Vig, so it would give multiple reasons for them to Vig hunt early on. It would also escape a guilty from the Gunsmith.

I thought about this but then there’s a few problems:

1) Doctor gets guiltied by the tracker.
2) Doctor who never saves a kill and never dies ends up being policy at some point.

So then the one PR would be a doctor and doesn’t help find the PRs claimed either.

Fundamentally this all doesn't work for a simple reason - I am town with the role I have claimed. Beyond my claim, what is the actual scum case against me? That I correctly guessed two townies weren't scum based on consistent reads?

[MathBlade]

Done all I can here, happy to self-hammer if someone moves me to E-1. Kitty should go next day though since I'll come back town. Remember Kitty all game voted on the basis of perceived anti-town play and then sat on a player with a role (even if it's been an entirely ineffectual one).

Why have you “done all you can here?”. Who do you think is scum with Kitty?

And oh yeah I pretty much yeet a doc claim because follow the cop is bad and there doesn’t seem to be a roleblocker.

[Roden]

Fundamentally it's interesting here that I have been the main elimination candidate for the majority of the day but my vote count keeps hovering around two. I can only have one partner if I'm hypothetical mafia, and yet nobody is really strongly defending me either. Whatever is going on someone from mafia (I expect Kitty's partner) is wary to end this because they don't want to look suspect, and they fundamentally want town to do it.

I'm seeing this too. That's why I don't want to end the Day yet.

I don't think scum are wary to vote you though. Game state doesn't suggest anyone who ends the day soon is definitely scum since there's a general agreement of everyone suspecting you.

Roden, I also don't feel like you've really addressed how silly your whole deep wolfing theory on me is (the reason I've suspected you to be honest) given it's predicated on me having advanced foresight neither Kitty nor HEM would be eliminated at all.

I don't think there's anything silly about it and no one else seems to agree with that either.

[MalcolmTucker]

Done all I can here, happy to self-hammer if someone moves me to E-1. Kitty should go next day though since I'll come back town. Remember Kitty all game voted on the basis of perceived anti-town play and then sat on a player with a role (even if it's been an entirely ineffectual one).

Why have you “done all you can here?”. Who do you think is scum with Kitty?

And oh yeah I pretty much yeet a doc claim because follow the cop is bad and there doesn’t seem to be a roleblocker.

I have said quite clearly - and outlined in a big, long post - why I think Kitty/Roden could be a team. I thought it might be you for a while last turn and still a bit today but my jailkeeping finds make me think you two together is unlikely. Beyond this I'm not sure what more I can be expected to provide. I have claimed. I have a role. I am saying you can eliminate me if you want because this is increasingly tiresome - I have quite frankly done much more than some other players here to present feasible scum teams or alternative mafia possibilities but Kitty is continually bad faith reading my arguments, probably because they are scum, and yet they are not being pushed for this at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

Fundamentally it's interesting here that I have been the main elimination candidate for the majority of the day but my vote count keeps hovering around two. I can only have one partner if I'm hypothetical mafia, and yet nobody is really strongly defending me either. Whatever is going on someone from mafia (I expect Kitty's partner) is wary to end this because they don't want to look suspect, and they fundamentally want town to do it.

I'm seeing this too. That's why I don't want to end the Day yet.

I don't think scum are wary to vote you though. Game state doesn't suggest anyone who ends the day soon is definitely scum since there's a general agreement of everyone suspecting you.

Roden, I also don't feel like you've really addressed how silly your whole deep wolfing theory on me is (the reason I've suspected you to be honest) given it's predicated on me having advanced foresight neither Kitty nor HEM would be eliminated at all.

I don't think there's anything silly about it and no one else seems to agree with that either.

It's silly because it's predicated on the idea I was able to guess the eliminations in advance. Would I have been deep wolfing if HEM went out and came back town or mafia? Clearly not. Yet I'd been willing to vote for them consistently. I am town who (for once) correctly read the play of other players as town, and now that is being used as the basis for my elimination, AFTER I have claimed a role as town, that is just incredibly frustrating.

[Roden]

Alright, let's try something.

VOTE: Kitty

[MathBlade]

Getting rid of me is still silly given I'm very much not mafia (my plan demonstrates that quite clearly) but probably little more I can do to make that obvious to the doubters. Scum being able to take the piss here it feeels like quite frankly but it happens I guess. Suppose there's a world where I'm wrong and it's Mala/Gamma or something and I've been on the wrong track all game so it can happen.

I don’t think your plan of self hammer demonstrates anything.

If any player offered to hammer themselves was town then scum would do it.

Scum also commonly hammer themselves before a flip to cut conversation.

I have a work meeting and left off here but I don’t find it a coincidence posting sped up when I asked people to talk Malcolm.