Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[MegAzumarill]

FL is very tunneled.
I concede it may be town.

I don't think it's a good case on catboi

Explain 3 of my reasons on Catboi.

because even if it's wrong, it's still a good case.

So, go ahead.

Explain it.

This is me pushing you, not looking for Catboi.

I'm catching you out here.

Explain 3 of my reasons, because I don't believe you know them and just said this for discrediting.

Your reasons are grounded pretty squarely in the ground of not even considering the alternative.
The main reasoning I find (which feel few and far between the actual metric ton of generally just saying it's a good case or restating points) is circumstantial and I don't find it all that likely.

You point to specific circumstances or scenarios with absolute confidence they are for a specific reason and I don't think they have to be that reason or are even likely that reason.
I could cite specific grievances like you suggest but I don't consider the argument good because it does nothing to discourage me from Town!catboi and instead frontloads information on why scum!catboi is scum which while applicable cannot be used exclusively.

Also what part of me repeatedly asking you to compile and present your case more clearly makes you think I have the same understanding of your argument as you do? There is no combination of words that would soothe you on this point (besides lying about my own reads, big nono), since you would only consider me having understood your argument if I agreed with you, since you find your own case so bulletproof.

[Flavor Leaf]

FL is very tunneled.
I concede it may be town.

I don't think it's a good case on catboi

Explain 3 of my reasons on Catboi.

because even if it's wrong, it's still a good case.

So, go ahead.

Explain it.

This is me pushing you, not looking for Catboi.

I'm catching you out here.

Explain 3 of my reasons, because I don't believe you know them and just said this for discrediting.

Your reasons are grounded pretty squarely in the ground of not even considering the alternative.
The main reasoning I find (which feel few and far between the actual metric ton of generally just saying it's a good case or restating points) is circumstantial and I don't find it all that likely.

You point to specific circumstances or scenarios with absolute confidence they are for a specific reason and I don't think they have to be that reason or are even likely that reason.
I could cite specific grievances like you suggest but I don't consider the argument good because it does nothing to discourage me from Town!catboi and instead frontloads information on why scum!catboi is scum which while applicable cannot be used exclusively.

Also what part of me repeatedly asking you to compile and present your case more clearly makes you think I have the same understanding of your argument as you do? There is no combination of words that would soothe you on this point (besides lying about my own reads, big nono), since you would only consider me having understood your argument if I agreed with you, since you find your own case so bulletproof.

yep, this is scum

None of these have anything to do with the case.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have compiled my cases multiple times.

[SCP 682]

Yep, and the sheer fact people are stubborn about it and doing it because I'm pushing there, makes me want to push harder.


Just shutting me out, and discrediting means I need to be louder.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf


Flavor Leaf never sign up for a game that I am already signed up for and never replace into a game that I am in ever again. Your play in this game has been absolutely insufferable. You are literally the first player I have ever blacklisted - congrats.

~Lukewarm

Please stop this. Using this to sway the game isn't ok.

[MegAzumarill]

They literally are addressing my problems with the case as you are presenting it

If you have a problem with that is how it looks, change the way you present your case.

[Flavor Leaf]

<snip>

This is a good post! It also looks to me like Nashville Dreams weren't able to maintain internal consistency and forgot who they were supposed to be sussing by confusing Monkeyman with catboi.

I'll keep reading, but based on the most recent VC and scrolling through the last few pages, it doesn't look like the wagon on them developed much further, which is kind of odd, because I feel like this is more solid that anything else that's happened so far this game.

Also:

Interesting how I postulate that voting Catboi might be required for the game state causes us to be a counter to catboi. This definitely means I need to reset my catboi read when I catch up.

The only difference I see is who is doing the voting. If it was people familiar with me, I would lean towards scum saving catboi. Yet Butter and Wallflower are not familiar with me.

Would like for Nashville Dreams to acknowledge posts 1705, 2109, 2113/2116 at some point

@ND

I already have.

Motive can tell alignment. The sheer number of times catboi has been counterwagoned suggests he's scum. My play read on him is town. The last I checked our hydra notes, she had catboi scum. Her opinion (at least at the time) plus the votes means I need to reset and check if the votes warrant the belief that scum were shopping for any not catboi wagon.

Even if my gut instinct is right, repeated counterwagons to town in multiball suggest catboi is defending one if not both teams hard.

That's why I need to know about the alleged missing bnuuy wagon.

While VCA isn't proper yet, we can still get theories as to what happens.

@Mega I'll post some other people cases

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Catboi

Forgot the vote.

and here I almost had faith in you

classic, honestly

This is the kind of thing Catboi's been doing, and I think SCP fell in the pocket after this.

If you notice this leads into Catboi butterchurn protection and turning SCP's butter scum read around, and then SCP gets cold feet on Catboi after seeing it.

They actively got played and turned around by Catboi.

And this is the type of play Catboi's been subtly doing all around.

he rewards the players when they town read them, and then talks in a "disappointed" kind of way.


This is also the type of thing they would try to say I'm doing, but I don't talk in a disappointed type of way, I push/go after, which is not helpful if I were coming from a scum perspective, correct? Just makes noise.


Catboi uses this tactic to get players to switch.


Catboi is using their tone to get people to read them as town.

I like this post. I think it is interesting looking at how catboi responds to different people and how the responses vary based on who the person is. For example, their responses to me follow a pattern of making me out to be stupid, to FL, making them out to be ridiculous, with very limited engagement with us that does not fall in those patterns. While to potential allies, there is a much more conciliatory tone. The “disappointed” thing that FL brings up is not something I had considered, but I think it has weight.

^very superficial explanation of what I mean, but something that I intend to talk more about later

This is one of the strongest reasons for it, imo.

Catboi has actively been choosing and picking how they react to people in a very manipulative fashion.

You can not agree with this case, but it is a good case, and if they are scum is 100% what they are doing.


To me, it's fairly obvious that WallFlower and Catboi was not TvT. You can sense it by the way Catboi acted towards WallFlower.

Anytime WallFlower said anything, Catboi pushed them as dumb and stupid.

They pushed Monkey as dense.

As soon as SPC turned on Catboi for a second, Catboi immediately made a comment like he was disappointed in SPC, like he was reprimanding them.



This is 1 thing.

[Flavor Leaf]

Also not circumstantial ^

[Well Done]

I refuse to even consider voting for catboi ever again in this game so long as Flavor leaf is alive.

talk to me about toog.

if you had to choose a wagon would you choose toog or catboi?

We don't scumread catboi and so won't vote there - ignore our blowup about FL, I have been considering them and they don't go below null for us. We liked some of their posting earlier. Not reading them based on their own emotions.

Toog is an eh vote. Might be scum but not as enthused to vote there as I would be for some other lurkers. Could also see being town.

Would prefer someone that I quoted to you in 4450

[Flavor Leaf]

Now let's look at wagons and VCA.

Catboi wasn't able to get over 6 votes on them basically at any point in the game.

There was wagon after wagon coming that was getting almost to the edge.

If Catboi were town, they would have both scum teams voting them, allowing for the wagon's possibility to get higher than 6.

It's not that hard to get it higher than 6 with how hard this has been pushed by multiple people, the main 3 being Me, Monkey, and WallF, and now Nashville.

Nashville wagon gained momentum because scum were likely trying to protect Catboi.


Catboi not being able to move past 6 votes means that not that both scum have been pushing this. Catboi's partners have actively been not bussing, and maybe one has been on in one of the straggler slots, but yeah.


Catboi is considered a stronger player and such scum would want that fade Day 1.

Especially if I'm the one pushing it.

Scum easily can take advantage of this. This has been seen, like when I pushed Malcolm Tucker to a misfade earlier this year.


This is a strong reason in itself.

Those 2 reasons combined make them near lock scum to me.

Neither of these are assumptions. Both of these are based on facts in the game that happened, and pulled analysis from it.

[MegAzumarill]

VOTE: Catboi

Forgot the vote.

and here I almost had faith in you

classic, honestly

This is the kind of thing Catboi's been doing, and I think SCP fell in the pocket after this.

If you notice this leads into Catboi butterchurn protection and turning SCP's butter scum read around, and then SCP gets cold feet on Catboi after seeing it.

They actively got played and turned around by Catboi.

And this is the type of play Catboi's been subtly doing all around.

he rewards the players when they town read them, and then talks in a "disappointed" kind of way.


This is also the type of thing they would try to say I'm doing, but I don't talk in a disappointed type of way, I push/go after, which is not helpful if I were coming from a scum perspective, correct? Just makes noise.


Catboi uses this tactic to get players to switch.


Catboi is using their tone to get people to read them as town.

I like this post. I think it is interesting looking at how catboi responds to different people and how the responses vary based on who the person is. For example, their responses to me follow a pattern of making me out to be stupid, to FL, making them out to be ridiculous, with very limited engagement with us that does not fall in those patterns. While to potential allies, there is a much more conciliatory tone. The “disappointed” thing that FL brings up is not something I had considered, but I think it has weight.

^very superficial explanation of what I mean, but something that I intend to talk more about later

This is one of the strongest reasons for it, imo.

Catboi has actively been choosing and picking how they react to people in a very manipulative fashion.

You can not agree with this case, but it is a good case, and if they are scum is 100% what they are doing.


To me, it's fairly obvious that WallFlower and Catboi was not TvT. You can sense it by the way Catboi acted towards WallFlower.

Anytime WallFlower said anything, Catboi pushed them as dumb and stupid.

They pushed Monkey as dense.

As soon as SPC turned on Catboi for a second, Catboi immediately made a comment like he was disappointed in SPC, like he was reprimanding them.



This is 1 thing.

This is the kind of thing that is circumstantial because you claim that catboi reacts in this way purposefully and only to be townread by these people but a lot of it is just natural responses that I could easily see town!catboi do. It would also be the natural reaction for people to read that interaction as being natural and townread catboi for it.

There's a not only possible but probably situation where that argument is just flat not true and is reading into motives when there wasn't one.

also playing to be townread is not a move only scum do in general, so using it as basis for a case feels weak on that front to

[Flavor Leaf]

I can likely go deeper into this VCA thing with quotes if you want me to case.

But the majority of my circumstantial posts are there as toppings to these 2 main cases rather than beings ones themselves.

I do admit there is a lot of circumstantial ones, but those 2 reasons alone are incredibly strong, and that's not even breaking down little individual things, like when Catboi/Norwegian went to Bnuuy, and then the Catboi wagon never gained that type of steam again.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Catboi

Forgot the vote.

and here I almost had faith in you

classic, honestly

This is the kind of thing Catboi's been doing, and I think SCP fell in the pocket after this.

If you notice this leads into Catboi butterchurn protection and turning SCP's butter scum read around, and then SCP gets cold feet on Catboi after seeing it.

They actively got played and turned around by Catboi.

And this is the type of play Catboi's been subtly doing all around.

he rewards the players when they town read them, and then talks in a "disappointed" kind of way.


This is also the type of thing they would try to say I'm doing, but I don't talk in a disappointed type of way, I push/go after, which is not helpful if I were coming from a scum perspective, correct? Just makes noise.


Catboi uses this tactic to get players to switch.


Catboi is using their tone to get people to read them as town.

I like this post. I think it is interesting looking at how catboi responds to different people and how the responses vary based on who the person is. For example, their responses to me follow a pattern of making me out to be stupid, to FL, making them out to be ridiculous, with very limited engagement with us that does not fall in those patterns. While to potential allies, there is a much more conciliatory tone. The “disappointed” thing that FL brings up is not something I had considered, but I think it has weight.

^very superficial explanation of what I mean, but something that I intend to talk more about later

This is one of the strongest reasons for it, imo.

Catboi has actively been choosing and picking how they react to people in a very manipulative fashion.

You can not agree with this case, but it is a good case, and if they are scum is 100% what they are doing.


To me, it's fairly obvious that WallFlower and Catboi was not TvT. You can sense it by the way Catboi acted towards WallFlower.

Anytime WallFlower said anything, Catboi pushed them as dumb and stupid.

They pushed Monkey as dense.

As soon as SPC turned on Catboi for a second, Catboi immediately made a comment like he was disappointed in SPC, like he was reprimanding them.



This is 1 thing.

This is the kind of thing that is circumstantial because you claim that catboi reacts in this way purposefully and only to be townread by these people but a lot of it is just natural responses that I could easily see town!catboi do. It would also be the natural reaction for people to read that interaction as being natural and townread catboi for it.

There's a not only possible but probably situation where that argument is just flat not true and is reading into motives when there wasn't one.

also playing to be townread is not a move only scum do in general, so using it as basis for a case feels weak on that front to

It's this in addition to the VCA. Not separately.

[Flavor Leaf]

They are combined. I can see how you see em as circumstantial now, though, but the VCA is absolutely not circumstantial when you combine them with the tone manipulation + the specific individualized pushes.

There's also the Mastina/Catboi political positioning.

There's also the angle shooting Catboi was actively doing to break down WallFlower/FL.

And there's also the incessant minimization and discrediting attempts.


And then there's posts like that Ydrasse one I mentioned, but that goes into case 1.


The thing is, even if it's circumstantial in some parts of it, does not make it fully circumstantial/incorrect.

[Flavor Leaf]

Regardless of if you believe they are scum, this is not a bad case, and has been a stronger case by pure amount than anyone else has presented on other slots.

It's not an ego thing, it's just that there's legitimately more out there, by Wall Flower, by Nashville.

It's not just me, Mega.

[Flavor Leaf]

Individually these cases don't hold as much here, but it's when you add the banana and the sprinkles to the ice cream that they become the banana split.

[MegAzumarill]

Now let's look at wagons and VCA.

Catboi wasn't able to get over 6 votes on them basically at any point in the game.

Neither have I, or you, or like 18 people in this game

There was wagon after wagon coming that was getting almost to the edge.

If Catboi were town, they would have both scum teams voting them, allowing for the wagon's possibility to get higher than 6.

Applicable for everyone, also scum typically dislike bandwagoning day 1 for no good reason

It's not that hard to get it higher than 6 with how hard this has been pushed by multiple people, the main 3 being Me, Monkey, and WallF, and now Nashville.

Why 6? What is signifigant about that number?

Nashville wagon gained momentum because scum were likely trying to protect Catboi.

Speculation at best, wishful thinking most likely. You claim catboi never was in actual danger but now scum are counterwagoning to save him?

Catboi not being able to move past 6 votes means that not that both scum have been pushing this. Catboi's partners have actively been not bussing, and maybe one has been on in one of the straggler slots, but yeah.

You assume everyone voting alongside you is scum then. Which feels both unlikely and extremely pessimistic about your skills of wagoning

Catboi is considered a stronger player and such scum would want that fade Day 1.

Why would scum want to push a strong player? Feels like a nightkill would be better suited to survival long term

Especially if I'm the one pushing it.

Scum easily can take advantage of this. This has been seen, like when I pushed Malcolm Tucker to a misfade earlier this year.

So you are saying youve done this before and limmed town? Would like a link to this game

This is a strong reason in itself.

Those 2 reasons combined make them near lock scum to me.

Neither of these are assumptions. Both of these are based on facts in the game that happened, and pulled analysis from it.

You assume things about these facts though. Pretty blatantly.

[Flavor Leaf]

Ah, see, it's not assuming. I have actively town cased these players, and had town cased Nashville when they were outside of the wagon.

I town cased Monkey when they werent on the wagon.

I had already town read WallFlower, and then Nero Cainj individually before they came back to Catboi.

They are not assumptions.

You are assuming I am assuming, but I have legitimately put so much effort into this game.



The more I look at the type of questions Mega is asking in response to them the more I'm starting to see them as just scum.


Mega posts neither have i or you, well sure, but we havent been getting pushed like this.

Catboi is a good reason, and scum bandwagon, you assuming differently is scummy.

6 is the halfway point.


Scum would want to fade a strong player, not necessarily push. I'm pushing.

@Mega - You replaced into the game you are asking me to link.

[MegAzumarill]

Your reasoning is circular

[Nashville Dreams]

If I hear one nore discredit about a case being circumstantial, I will quote you the circumstantial evidence jury instructions when I get home. The only direct evidence we get are confessions and invests.

[Flavor Leaf]

Your reasoning is circular

And you're more interested in chopping it all down than actually caring what I have to say.

[Flavor Leaf]

I do believe Mega helped me case, though, so thank you Mega.

[Flavor Leaf]

I do think your scum, though.

[Flavor Leaf]

*e

[Flavor Leaf]

id rather my auto correct just let me misspell shit