Micro 1054 || Fuzzy Friends Coalition || Game Over!

[Datisi]

I need to channel Shoshin

this is not a sentence that anyone should ever say

also can you acknowledge this pls:

what did you think was my point [in 45] anyway? that i arbitrarily decided to trash my case because you just so happened to be a replacement that game?

[Irrelephant11]

HURT: all

HEAL: irrelephant
save the dragons
aristeia
menalque
skitter30

Sheeping the dragon.

Pedit: Shoshin was an unpopular player in many games, but I really got along her and learned a lot from her style of play, I think she more than most could see past smoke screens and read people's actual motivations. I understand she had a "scum IRL" moment in a game in the interim that I've been away, but I feel no shame channeling her better towngames

[Irrelephant11]

How strongly do you care about me responding to 276 because I don't think either of will enjoy going back and forth on the semantics of each other's posts. Suffice it to say you were responding to a post I enjoyed writing more than strongly believed, so it's not that interesting to me as a conversation path.

I'll talk about it if you like *really care* though

[Datisi]

i don't really care too much about that point specifically, but i'm seeing a lot of you treating my slot in potentially intentionally malicious ways (e.g. voting me because lol wagon but then not seeing much follow up on that that would make me think you were genuinely interested in sorting me by pushing me as opposed to pushing me because it's easy; writing out a post on why i'm scummy that had Weird points you cannot Properly And Simply Back Up once called out on it; admitting a post was townie but still bringing up a dats/mala team even though you said you don't quite think it's that but you still wanna mention it because haha what if)

like it feels like there's too many le funny coincidences that it veers into uncomfortable territory and without some sorta explanation or overview of your thoughts, it's going to be difficult for me to see you as town if you really are

[Irrelephant11]

Really torn between continuing to sort you by way of gentle antagonization or flipping the script and trying to make peace

For now I have IRL work to do so I'll let you just do your thing and read me/std

One point I'll respond to: I

was

disappointed to realize a lim can't happen until the coalition forms, making votes way less powerful right now. So I stopped caring where my vote was once I realized it doesn't do anything to provide pressure. Otherwise it would have moved around a lot by now

[Not Known 15]

HEAL: save the dragons
HEAL: skitter30
HEAL: aristeia
HEAL: menalque
HEAL: irrelephant

my work here is done*

*second try

HURT: all
This will fail. It contains aristeia.
HEAL: irrelephant
save the dragons
aristeia
menalque
skitter30

Sheeping the dragon.

Pedit: Shoshin was an unpopular player in many games, but I really got along her and learned a lot from her style of play, I think she more than most could see past smoke screens and read people's actual motivations. I understand she had a "scum IRL" moment in a game in the interim that I've been away, but I feel no shame channeling her better towngames

[Not Known 15]

Ummmm... that was not intentional. Datisi is right though. This looks like one of my scum meta. Probably because I think I already solved this.

No ari, no dats or I'll oppose it

[fireisredsir]

fire - i think that's not a Good reason to townread someone since just because someone knows they need to play differently doesn't mean that they CAN do that, and this is a setup where one scum lowkey benefits from looking scummy if they're also distanced enough for later, but that's a theoretical discussion that's not very helpful right now

as for her "questioning" your read on her, 216 felt more like she was asking "what do you mean now that i've posted, i've posted before" rather than "why are you townreading me for that post", which feels like something scum might do if they feel like they should enter a conversation with you but they don't want to actually make you rethink your townread or open the gates for discussion there

did anything i said give the impression that i thought it was a Good reason

your reason isn't very Good either but there isn't much to go off at this point

for your second point yea ok that's fair

[fireisredsir]

ping

fire what's your tell on datisi if he says ping

datisi did you already explain why you townread ari and if so can you explain it better

[fireisredsir]

oop that wasn't supposed to be a quote

[Aristeia]

I think mena is probably town

why? i don't necessarily disagree, but the timing of this makes me feel like you're townreading him for things i don't really think are town!indicative

Not sure i agree with that logic tho, i think you would like playing scum with dats

i would like for nk15 to actually elaborate on what he was saying in 236 because there's a townier and a scummier universe for 236, but i'm not inclined to ask specific questions and lead him to the answer

ok i'm gonna say
i think mena is town for 255

the post itself is nothing really special that's outside of mena's scumrange, but it kinda makes me think that his trajectory on skitter, doesn't like, make a ton of sense if he's scum

because i know mena has that way of treating skitter that's "town until proven otherwise" and that would work okay for this game, especially as skitt was already starting to think that mena's town. so this kinda "actually i don't want to vote skitter into the coalition if there's other people" feels like, not a necessary stance to take? like, if he's scum and he doesn't want skitter inside the coalition, i think he knows this kind of theoretical approach is not very likely to make people actually remove skitter from the coalition. it does however, risk people disliking him for trying to argue something like that about a person they think is town because he's basically saying "i don't have a scumread but let's still not" which has an obvious +scum potential so why does he do it, exactly

like, this does make sense if the team is exactly mena/skitt but if that's the team, the game was lost at rand and this all is just a formality so i will not worry about it yet

kind of sad you think mena+skitter would thoroughly stomp us :<

[Aristeia]

also I don't really agree on townreading someone off ineffectivie opposition because if you are scum and stuck outside coalition - you don't really have a choice about being oppositional to the coalition

regardless

if your partner is on the coalition or not on the coalition - it is simply good play to be oppositional period.

[Aristeia]

I don't know if aristeia and datisi both insist the other is being very towny then maybe I have to consider that they're aligned and if they're both going to put in so much effort to be team players (aristeia trying not to clog the thread, datisi double-checking whether I and the dragon are actually safe townreads) then maybe I shouldn't scumread them. Is that dumb? To townread people for towny things in this setup? My brain is hurting

pedit: It's funny every time

I recognize that I can be wrong about Dats because I tend to always end up townreading him. it's not something I mean to do - I really do think quite a lot about his alignment and I always just end up back at town for him >_>

[fireisredsir]

Guys I got malakittens+datisi scumteam in my eye and I can't get it out

I'm not even really advocating that that's definitely the scumteam it's just like... stuck there in my large elephant eye

My trunk is not quite nimble enough to hepl, someone help

hm can you talk about this more

[Irrelephant11]

Sure yeah, elephant eyes are a little bigger than human eyes. Only a little, which might surprise you - roughly 150% the size of a human eye. I would have thought bigger but no

And elephant trunks can grab stuff but don't have, like, opposable thumbs, so it's hard to get in there without making things worse

[Aristeia]

I have now begun reading about elephant eyesight ty irre

[Irrelephant11]

Fwiw i've played many games with irrel, albeit not really recently

I linked that one in particular because it was the first round of coalition ever iirc and it was a Good Game with a good pl

I wasnt trying to imply anything r.e. meta or how we should be reading his alignment here

btw the game I repped in was not the first coalition ever. It was the third, and the second one we won together

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=77544

[fireisredsir]

ok well i was kind of feeling like your more recent posting has vibes of "haha look at me i have towny thoughts processes and plans and paranoias" and less so like those things were genuine. like it feels like you care more about projecting that image of yourself than about the things themselves

and that response doesn't really help on that front

[Datisi]

okay, gonna attempt to read through irrel and std and see if i like, have any epiphanies

my read through irrel iso is mostly that... it's more boring than what i'd expect from someone who seems to be a utr. like ok one thing is that the tone does read pretty pure. but also as far as i can tell he is an Experienced Player so there's only so far that the tonal aspect can give me good vibes from him.

as for his reads, i feel like there's a distinct lack of them and that those that are here are not exactly complex or that hard to fake. like, nk15 is townie because not trying to grab towncred. disagree but i can see that one. i can understand not wanting to give out exact tells he hinted about in 110 but my problem is that nowhere later in his iso is there some sorta continuation of that thought. the heal of skitter in 112 is ~mysterious~ (i.e. unexplained) only to then later go that he's getting paranoid of skitter and that she fell into his town pile because she said things that made sense (221, 225). there's no actual insight of why she was town in the first place or why he started getting paranoid, which to me usually feels like it's something he said for the sake of saying it

i was looking forward to getting into a Proper Conversation about 244 but nope later on it turns out it's not a post that he exactly very strongly believes in. obviously it's annoying to be "cased" like that and then shut down by "yeah actually i don't believe in that that much lol", but my actual problem with it is, what am i supposed to sort you on? you gave that one post that arguably gave insight of some of your thought process, to then basically go "nvm" on it.

and the hedging around "haha what if scum is dats/mala what if" and "i should be townreading ari+dats?? i dunno lol" and actively avoiding talking about why he thought of mala/dats when it was clear he was thinking *Something*, lest why bring it up multiple times

a lot of it feels like going through the motions for the sake of looking like he's thinking about things rather than actually thinking about things, especially since his latest coalition is "i sheep std" which makes it so he doesn't even have to stand strongly behind it

now, these ^^ things don't necessarily make someone scum. saying "you don't have content 48 hours into the game on page 15" is like, not Quite it. but it's illustrating a trend which makes me wary and which makes me very much not understand why it seems like everyone is townreading him

so like, @mena and whoever else has him as a strong townread, where am i wrong?

gonna look through std next

pedit: oh no, i'm townreading fire now???

[Datisi]

i have a headache now

[Datisi]

why the fuck did that post, i was trying to write "woo" next to it and then go onto the std iso but i accidentally clicked tab + "w" and the post posted??? oops

[Aristeia]

maybe you should get some more rest dear <3

[Irrelephant11]

ok well i was kind of feeling like your more recent posting has vibes of "haha look at me i have towny thoughts processes and plans and paranoias" and less so like those things were genuine. like it feels like you care more about projecting that image of yourself than about the things themselves

and that response doesn't really help on that front

I have a real answer but I didn’t want to scumcase Datisi while he was scumcasing me

[Datisi]

ANYWAY std iso

101 i dislike because it's a v easy way to get onto what's popular at the time. also the explanations for the votes are kinda lackluster because the description of my 37 is very uncharitable and "skitter seems to be solving" is like, such a low bar to place for someone like skitter

then, his vote of mena for 145/146. maybe it's me who's used to mena's sense of humour and writing style and those posts seemed very normal to me. (in fact they were a bit of a positive sign after the first few posts which felt way too boring but anyway.) std immediately jumping onto that feels like scum who saw a townie acting wacky and decided to try to spin them into looking bad, i.e. performative, because the words that they wrote were level-zero-thinking bad. like, i usually find that town is more likely to critically think about *why* mena would write something that maybe looks weird while scum is more likely to try to make it seem bad because that is their job description. yes i'm aware std later said he misunderstood or changed his mind or whatever no i still don't like it.

the rest of his iso is also... kinda boring. like, a bunch of it is joking around or arguing theory with mena. like, afair i don't think std usually puts out a lot of content as town or rather not a lot of "serious, well structured content", but there's usually some sorta thought process i can follow and here i don't think i can follow a lot of it. not sure if i could explain the reason of one read he had.

like, again, page 15 48 hours but it's not a Great look.

i feel that both irrel and std are some sorta vibe townreads for the majority of the game, and either my vibe radar is broken or they're getting read for nonsense reasons and idk which and mafia is a fuck

[fireisredsir]

i have vibe scumread on std