Micro 1054 || Fuzzy Friends Coalition || Game Over!

[skitter30]

i think he's arguign that he's focusing on irrel the most because he's on a lot of people's heal-lists
but not that he's scumreading him *because* he's on a lot of people's heal-lsits

[fireisredsir]

Who's your strongest scumread that you would 100% not want to be on the coalition and why?

well im arguing hardest for irrel to be left out bc he is currently on a lot of people's heal lists and i think he shouldn't be. mala probably has a higher chance of being scum, i guess? but she's already off the lists so i don't really need to care about that rn.

std i feel like my gut read is comparably strong to my feelings on irrel but i feel less capable of putting words to it or justifying it since multiple people have kinda shut it down previously

maybe my phrasing was unclear in that. but the answer to your question there was mala ("has a higher chance of being scum"), and i was explaining why i felt like it was worth arguing more strongly for irrel despite him not being my strongest scumread at the time

[Save The Dragons]

has anything i've posted affected your read in anyway, fire

[Aristeia]

ok can you write out the scumcase for irrel again cuz I guess I kind of just missed it then. or you can just like quote it for me if you have it down somewhere.

[fireisredsir]

has anything i've posted affected your read in anyway, fire

yes

i liked the bit about the penguin

[skitter30]

ok can you write out the scumcase for irrel again cuz I guess I kind of just missed it then. or you can just like quote it for me if you have it down somewhere.

also this, cuz i'm not sure i get the scumcase either

[fireisredsir]

actually tho i can try to put some words to it, ik i haven't really explained it (i was wondering if ari would ask me to since it seemed like something she would do if she wanted to sort me, but she didnt)

[fireisredsir]

that was re: std. but yes I will compile my irrel reasons too

[Aristeia]

Who's your strongest scumread that you would 100% not want to be on the coalition and why?

well im arguing hardest for irrel to be left out bc he is currently on a lot of people's heal lists and i think he shouldn't be. mala probably has a higher chance of being scum, i guess? but she's already off the lists so i don't really need to care about that rn.

std i feel like my gut read is comparably strong to my feelings on irrel but i feel less capable of putting words to it or justifying it since multiple people have kinda shut it down previously

I kind of thought 466 was me asking you who is scum and why and 469 you were answering me irrel becuz he's being healed by a lot of people.

[fireisredsir]

yes that would be a misinterpretation then and its maybe my bad for not giving you a super clear "your answer is x". but yea that's not at all what i was saying. my answer at the time was mala, but it seemed like there was an implied question/confusion (not just in that quote but in the surrounding context) of "I don't get why you're pushing the people you're pushing" so i wanted to explain why i was focusing on irrel despite him not being my strongest scumread

ig cause you said "strongest scumread that you would 100% not want to be on the coalition"

and like

strongest scumread was mala

but strongest WANT was irrel, and the reason why my wanting/caring/focusing was more on irrel was cause he was more likely to make it in, so my level of caring about pushing him out was stronger. no need to care about pushing mala out bc she was already out. but that had no effect on my scumread, just on my level of focus

[fireisredsir]

Spoiler: irrel posts

ok well i was kind of feeling like your more recent posting has vibes of "haha look at me i have towny thoughts processes and plans and paranoias" and less so like those things were genuine. like it feels like you care more about projecting that image of yourself than about the things themselves

and that response doesn't really help on that front

I think datisi is mad at my shading his slot in the same way I've seen happen many times when two people's playstyles don't gel (I think mine and Datisi's don't gel).

I'm over here like "I'll just play and push and pull and read and vote and see if I can achieve some stuff for town without breaking my back"
Datisi is like "Unwritten thoughts don't exist, therefore I will write all of mine and dislike any posts without every thought on paper"

And I poked at him a bit and he got mad in a self-righteous way I think is hard to fake as scum

like this just is pure scum tbh

can you elaborate on this read. why is it scumplay?

i thought it was kinda self-evident but apparently not ???

it just feels very... narrative-setting in a slimy way. like he is deciding what datisi thought and it feels like he is twisting things to both discredit the suspicion ("oh its just a playstyle clash from both sides and we're both wrong!") and also townread datisi for it at the same time. it's also the fact that it is setting a narrative for his own play ("im over here like") that makes it out to look towny, in a way that to me makes it feel like the play was designed to appear that way. maybe it is just town that describes things in ways that happen to set off my "this is not genuine" detector, but it just feels very sus to me. now that i think about it, it kinda reminds me of tenebros in the large if y'all remember that, but he did end up being town

im actually v surprised datisi did not have the same reaction to it that i did so idk maybe i am seeing ghosts, but this was a major alarm bells post for me

ok continuing on the irrelephant point but he seems to have a pattern, like with 427 he is sort of responding to a datisi post about suspicion on him but also really the bulk of what he's saying is about how the post affects his own read on datisi

and i know that like objectively strictly yes that maybe should actually be a towny thing to do, to care more about your reads on other people than about their reads on you

but it feels like its one step further, like its caring more about other people's perceptions of your reads on other people

and it also makes it look like it's a response to the post but actually it really isn't?? like this is obviously super reductive but it feels to me like if person A says "hey person B, I think you're scum for reason X!" and then person B's response is "*pats head* thats a nice reason you have there person A, you're town!"

and i know the post after was slightly more response-focused but still

idkk maybe it really is just a playstyle thing and i will go look at some past games to see if i should be ignoring this feeling but ahhh it makes my skin crawl reading it, just feels super slimy

hi irrel!!

why did you call me Irrel?

this is an example of an angleshooty townie post because I think he thinks at that moment in time maybe you heard someone refer to him as irrel in a scum pt and it struck him as weird you referred to him that way.

a lot of his thoughts are angleshooty in a townie way but I guess if he's good at faking angleshooty thoughts then maybe this is NAI for him?

I am kind of just going with a general profile of the player because I have no experience with him.

see like for me that post felt way too on the nose. like obviously he wants people to think that was the reason he asked. but does he seriously care or think that the line of questioning will go anywhere? like what possible answer will datisi give that will make him go "aha! you're scum!"

literally no answer

its a pointless question and it is pure performance

you said that you don't know if performativeness is AI here but this instance of it just seems way more likely to come from scum to me

Like I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you think me being More-Widely-Townread-Than-I-Deserve (MWTTID) is scummy, look into the people townreading me, don't scumread *me*. Because MWTTID is evidence that scum is townreading me fypov, not evidence that I must be scum.

this has nothing to do with my scumread of you. i also think this was a misrepresentation when you said it before about datisi. the only connection that it has is that it makes you more likely to be in the coalition. and if you are scum then it is better for town for you to not be in the coalition. it is more prudent and more immediately important to argue for your removal than it is to hunt the possible scum who may or may not be incorrectly townreading you because our current goal is forming an all-town coalition. you attempting to redirect this onto other people is scummy imo, and certainly is not pro-town.

again. people townreading you is not part of the evidence for you being scum. it never has been. you continually misrepresenting this is, however, evidence towards you being scum

in fact, shifting the argument in this way is p much exactly what I would expect scum to do in this position, as someone who is widely townread but is suspected by a minority. it minimizes and dismisses the case and changes the landscape of the debate to appear like its focused more around pedantic points of what exactly the case consists of rather than the actual merit of the points.

this is a pattern of scumplay in this position because your goal is not to convince me or datisi. your goal is to make it look to the people who already townread you that this argument is over nothing

main points summarized:

1) the big thing is that it feels like he cares more about looking towny than about actually doing pro-town things

2) his responses to peoples suspicions about him have felt slimy to me, like he is dodging the point and trying to make it about something else in a way that feels deliberate. he has done this multiple times

3) i think his tone in responses as well has felt like he is frustrated that he isn't getting as much credit as he expected to from doing things that look surface-level towny. this frustration seems more likely to come from scum than town to me

4) his positioning in general and the way that he chooses to engage with different people seems dependent on what benefits him rather than coming from a genuine town solvy mindset

5) not really a key point, but i did read some previous games and he is well in his scumrange, and he is capable of making towny-looking progressions and being proactive as scum, so i don't think people should be townreading him for that despite his complaints otherwise

[Irrelephant11]

my scumrange is very wide and I am very good

Regardless, I will forever be annoyed at the people who refuse to townread me because my scumrange is very wide and I am very good.

The fire in my soul that fireisredsir is scum is dying, though it's still my strongest scumread

[Irrelephant11]

I think fireisredsir's refusal to heal anyone is anti-town, because it hides thought processes. But sometimes town do anti-town things and sometimes townies scumread me for bad reasons, this game has me very wound up and kind of confused.

My wife sprained her ankle today so I'll be taking care of the kids more this week so I'll be posting less, @everyone

[Irrelephant11]

irrel misrepped this as well

how come when aristeia reads your words this way it's a misunderstanding, and when I do it it's misrepping

[Irrelephant11]

I already conceded that I misunderstood your read on NK15 as a scumread when in fact it was a "town that I don't mind leaving out of the coalition" read.
I and Aristeia both thought you were saying that you were trying to get me out of the coalition not because I'm the scummiest of those in the coalition, but because I was the most widely-healed. Is it not obvious that that interpretation of your words would lead me to scumread you? Town want the scummiest players out of the coalition. Scum want the most-widely-healed players to lose towncred - it seemed like you had unintentionally revealed you were in the second category. It still kinda seems like that, but I'm less sure now.

[fireisredsir]

std:

ok i haven't really played much with std but i did meta read a bunch of games when i was trying to sort him in large 238 d1. i felt like i got a decent feel for how he approaches games differently as town vs scum, and thought that he was likely scum that game, so that's why i TA checked him n1. unfortunately he was traitor so i got a false inno

i feel somewhat hesitant to even try to justify this read bc i don't think im going to explain it very well but whatever

basically i feel like there is a certain energy that he has when town, like he is generally excited to solve the game and also just... wants to be there. he usually has reads that it feels like he really cares about, or even if he doesn't exactly, he still is trying to work with people and help move the game forward

as scum he has fine read progressions and etc and still can joke around and whatnot but he lacks that town energy. he seems content to be a background character and pop up occasionally with a Good Post, and yet not really drive things. when i read posts that he makes as scum i picture him making a face and being like "ugh do i have to do this".

here is a recent scumgame that i feel is illustrative:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... lect[]=629
and a towngame:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13237692

these were just the first ones i saw but i think p much any of them would fit imo

i think his iso this game looks way closer to his usual scumgame. ive thought that since like his first 3 posts so maybe im confbiased idk, and maybe he's just lacking energy due to non-alignment-related reasons, but idk its still the read i have

if anyone who has played with him more than me thinks that this take is way off then im willing to reconsider

[fireisredsir]

I think fireisredsir's refusal to heal anyone is anti-town, because it hides thought processes.

...what? im healing people and have never refused to

rn i am healing me/skitt/datisi/menalque/nk15, which is still my preferred even if nk doesn't like it

[Irrelephant11]

If it’s the latter, we can just agree now: neither you nor I will be in the coalition. If it’s the former, explain how I (the player who I would argue has done the most to move the game forward, but I digress) am scummier than malakittens, NK15, and your other scumread, Save the Dragons (who has the same reads as me but has done less to make the rest of the playerlist sortable).

a) yea thats fine with me, although i doubt it will happen just cause you said so

b) see it feels like you think that you deserve to be townread bc you have scored more townpoints than these other people who haven't done enough. and you seem annoyed that i am not giving you credit for your valiant attempts to score these townpoints. that's... just not how the game of mafia works. im not here to count up the townpoints that everyone has scored and calculate who has the most. im here to find scum. scum are perfectly capable of appearing like town. the point is to find which players have a scum motivation behind their actions. i believe that you do. do you think that you are incapable of scoring townpoints as scum? i read your past games and that is clearly not true.

"see it feels like you think that you deserve to be townread bc you have done more for town than these other people who haven't done enough. and you seem annoyed that i am not giving you credit for your valiant attempts to work on town's behalf. that's... just not how the game of mafia works. im not here to evaluate who's done the most for town. im here to find scum."

This is how your words read to me. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm just pointing out that it feels silly from my point of view that you're scumreading me for thinking that I'm towny or for "thinking I've earned townpoints". I do think I'm towny - not just in easily fakeable tone, but in

how much I've helped town

. In fact I've been working my butt off to sort the playerlist and push the not-yet-sortable players - heck, you & datisi & aristeia are all much more readable - to EVERYONE - because I pushed you for reads and/or got under your skin. I AM pissed if you're town who's scumcasing me - ESPECIALLY because it seemed like you took all of your [not-town-reads], clicked [sort-by:]
[scummiest]
[most-widely-townread] --< *click*

and came after me when you didn't actually have me as the scummiest in your list until I disagreed that I was scummy!

[fireisredsir]

irrel misrepped this as well

how come when aristeia reads your words this way it's a misunderstanding, and when I do it it's misrepping

honestly its probably that ive played with ari more so i know her better and i feel more inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt. is that fair? no! i think its reasonable to assume that if she was misunderstanding me then you were too

tbf tho i wasn't ever saying that she was and you weren't, at the time of the post you quoted i thought you both were misrepping me

[Irrelephant11]

I think fireisredsir's refusal to heal anyone is anti-town, because it hides thought processes.

...what? im healing people and have never refused to

rn i am healing me/skitt/datisi/menalque/nk15, which is still my preferred even if nk doesn't like it

Oh yeah. Well forget me, I'm 100% tunneled on a townie, aren't I. Like 1/4 of my scumread on you was your refusal to use heals but that was just something you said earlygame and not actually a behavior you acted out.

I'm losing my mind, aren't I. I'm getting in fights with people about how towny I am in a game where towncasing yourself is basically a scumclaim.

I am happy I joined this game, I am mostly having fun, but my brain feels like mush and I think I used to be better at this. Sorry if you're town, fire, I can't tell anymore

[fireisredsir]

This is how your words read to me. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm just pointing out that it feels silly from my point of view that you're scumreading me for thinking that I'm towny or for "thinking I've earned townpoints". I do think I'm towny - not just in easily fakeable tone, but in how much I've helped town. In fact I've been working my butt off to sort the playerlist and push the not-yet-sortable players - heck, you & datisi & aristeia are all much more readable - to EVERYONE - because I pushed you for reads and/or got under your skin.

i mean yes that is more or less true, but just because you are actively doing things and pushing people and making them more sortable does not necessarily mean that you are helping town more than you are helping scum.

there are plenty of scum players on this site who like to take a very active role in leading the game so that they can control things and set up the gamestate they want. most of this plist just got out of a game with scum!prism where she did exactly that. so i don't think that it is inherently towny for you to do that.

that's why i think its important to look at what motivations players like that have and what narratives they are trying to set. when i looked at yours, i found them scummy

[Irrelephant11]

I think it's possible town!fire finds me scummy here. I'm very much intentionally channeling players like RC, Shoshin, the worst... players whose play I think is really good at rooting out scum, but who also got/get scumread all the time for it because it's not easy to follow.

I thought fire was definitely scum when he started scumcasing me because I thought it was crap and revealed a scummy motivation, but I'm also finding some of the newer clarifications plausible. So now I'm just. like. really hoping it's NK15/mala because I'm running out of scumreads among the 7 of us who are playing

[fireisredsir]

Oh yeah. Well forget me, I'm 100% tunneled on a townie, aren't I. Like 1/4 of my scumread on you was your refusal to use heals but that was just something you said earlygame and not actually a behavior you acted out.

I'm losing my mind, aren't I. I'm getting in fights with people about how towny I am in a game where towncasing yourself is basically a scumclaim.

I am happy I joined this game, I am mostly having fun, but my brain feels like mush and I think I used to be better at this. Sorry if you're town, fire, I can't tell anymore

and speaking of prism/last game, nice reflective stepback, but i have learned these tricks and shall not be fooled!

actual response:
maybe i am tunneled as well but i can't help but read this as scum attempting to defuse the situation and get both of us to reassess. and yea there is a world where you're town here, but it just isn't the one that im seeing as most likely rn

[Irrelephant11]

Well lucky you I'm voting for a coalition I'm not in.

For you to continue scumreading me, I think you have to assume my partner is also widely coalition'd? I guess you would probably argue it's dragons

[fireisredsir]

I'm very much intentionally channeling players like RC, Shoshin, the worst... players whose play I think is really good at rooting out scum, but who also got/get scumread all the time for it because it's not easy to follow.

maybe our lovely quackup mod has changed since you were last around, but i don't think i have ever even considered scumreading a post of his. the one time i did i felt immediately guilty for it. they are too pure