Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[MathBlade]

Quite honestly if Jackson continued their fake claim I think town just wins.

I knew JV was lying due to the rolecop but then HEM flips and you’d know that scum wouldn’t be triple VTs then you just claim VT / named PR and start aiming at who dies. You weren’t a VT and if town was more present I don’t think I push that bad logic.

[MalcolmTucker]

guys im an easy picking right now

understand that

analyze it

if you want some vulnerability, i'm gonna go ahead and admit that i'm not gonna jeopardize my scum w/l record by staying in a losing game if i'm mafia here (people have been suspecting me since D1, and i'm unable to give my best game because i'm swamped).

did this really break any rules? is this a real trust tell?

no i dont think so. 1.) it's not a real trust tell of mine. it's a total lie. check my games. it's never been a pattern 2.) i didn't say never/always. 3.) i did not publicly consider or publicly announce a choice to replace out.

Invoking trust tells.

Trust tells have long been a point of confusion, and for good reason - they are one of the most subtle rules we have, and if you don't understand them it's not even clear why they'd be a problem. They act as a form of OGI typically by allowing a player to assert themself as town more strongly than would normally be possible. The subtlety around trust tells comes mostly from their distinction from acceptable self-meta. Self-meta turns into a trust tell when there is an explicit or implicit statement that it would never be broken, or that it would only be broken extremely rarely. Important here, and a distinction from how we've handled things in the past, is that we are extending this to include cases where the person is not intentionally building up a trust tell, but is instead simply pointing out a pattern in their meta that they never intend to break. For example, the following may all constitute trust tells depending on context:

"I will never lie using red text."
"I have never faked a guilty as scum."
"I will always claim my real role."
"I never bus as scum."

Context is very important here. If a relatively new player says that they've never fakeclaimed before, this is not a problem - however, if a player with many dozens of completed games points out the same thing and says that they never fakeclaim as a policy, then every game where they don't lie about this policy increases the credence of their claim. After a certain point, this becomes an unfair advantage because statistically, the more times in a row someone has told the truth about something, the more likely it is that they will always tell the truth about it.

There are a variety of factors that each push something toward being an unfair trust tell: history of having followed the tell, specifically stating that the tell will never be broken in the future rather than merely stating that it's been followed up until now, an explicit advantage (such as being more plausibly town) being gained by people believing the tell, the tell being about very specific behavior, and so on. However, none of these individually are necessary for something to be a trust tell.

If you wish to refer to your own meta, as a rule of thumb, do not speak in absolutes. We obviously cannot (and do not want to) punish someone for having some of these policies (e.g., if you believe that it is never correct to bus as scum, or don't want to fake a guilty, we can't make you). In these cases, you simply cannot discuss behaviors like this in discussion of your own meta. If someone else brings up something that may qualify as a trust tell for you, you can say that you've never done the behavior in question, but you cannot say that you have a policy of never doing it. This is not a perfect solution, but we don't believe that a perfect solution exists.

i want this game to be clean so a listmod might want to rule over this one.

I admit I found this is a bit off at the time, in that it definitely made me think frustrated townie internally for a moment. I generally don't like anyone replacing out or even considering it if they're in a role they don't like or if they get a role they disapprove of, but then your suggestion seemed to be you back out as scum if you don't have a chance of victory which didn't make sense to me anyway...if scum lose and you're scum that still counts as a defeat to me unless you do it so early on there's no effect. I guess an analogy would be a goalkeeper who gets subbed off in a football game still loses when he's conceded a goal that eventually helps the other team win.

But well-played. Your willingness to work with me D4 benefited you massively I think. I had no out but you trust you at that point I think because too many townies weren't buying my claim. However would have fought you tooth and nail if you'd stayed on me fully and you'd have maybe come out looking worse for it D5. As it happened got diverted onto Kitty/Roden instead.

[MathBlade]

Nah I just poisoned the well.

The setup has way too much TPR.

A newbie game gives scum a roleblocker against cop doc. This has two cops and a half doc.

So yeah definitely needed something to help there.

[DkKoba]

imagine my shock that i was defending townies from FL pushing them

[DkKoba]

malcom elimination was so terrible town should have easily solved the 2 obvscum off that and just ... not vote malcom

[DkKoba]

I hope some people learn its NOT better to vote out a townie d1 and instead actually push for scum (:

[DkKoba]

Andres/MathBlade/NK15
For stats

sadge i tunneled on nk15 but hem was in that poe right above ):

[MathBlade]

Well played Koba. So glad no one listened to you when you died. Kinda going all over the place hurt your case.

If we didn’t get Scorpious I was just going to ignore you and paint you as the enby who claimed wolf. I was really hoping it didn’t come to that.

[MathBlade]

Who cried wolf*

[DkKoba]

eh andres would have went over ngl

[MathBlade]

eh andres would have went over ngl

Yeah possibly but Andres and I together didn’t have longevity anyway.

[Not Known 15]

Nah I just poisoned the well.

The setup has way too much TPR.

A newbie game gives scum a roleblocker against cop doc. This has two cops and a half doc.

So yeah definitely needed something to help there.

No, I don't think that this setup had too much TPR.
But it had too much ITPR.
2 investigative roles + 1 gated Jailkeeper is way too much investigative and roleblocking power. In the worst case you get full guilties(against every single mafia).

[MathBlade]

Nah I just poisoned the well.

The setup has way too much TPR.

A newbie game gives scum a roleblocker against cop doc. This has two cops and a half doc.

So yeah definitely needed something to help there.

No, I don't think that this setup had too much TPR.
But it had too much ITPR.
2 investigative roles + 1 gated Jailkeeper is way too much investigative and roleblocking power. In the worst case you get full guilties(against every single mafia).

This.

[DkKoba]

NRG doesnt balance against the "worst case scenario" fwiw and goes for the average expected.

[MathBlade]

Assume VT elimmed D1 as that’s average.
PR won’t check itself or dead VT say 11 possible slots to check.

Gunsmith on N1 has 3/11 odds of guilty.
Lazy tracker on N1 has 2/11 odds of guilty.
Because scum will send goon to do kill rather than rolecop that’s 2/11 odds of guilty.

Odds of not getting a guilty is 8/11,9/11,9/11 for each.

Odds of no one getting a guilty is 48%

So average odds a check will have a guilty on N1 at 52%

[MathBlade]

So yes NRG balancing against average should be giving scum a defense here of some kind.

[humaneatingmonkey]

thank you everyone and i hope you enjoyed the game. you'll see in our pt what's on purpose and what isn't. tbh the game died day 1 and when we bussed andre day 2. hyperposting killed morale, and we encouraged that a lot. apathy killed critical thinking, and we encouraged that a lot. math was awesome and even though it seemed at times that we don't have any chemistry as a team, this was the exact reason no one could pin us together as partners.

fine
let me be darling wagon
ask me anything

Q: Do you remember the game where you were scum and made me hate life so bad?

i hope it was different this time

[humaneatingmonkey]

also, I find it amusing that the surviving town had cat-related names in a cat-themed game

[MathBlade]

Irl I am allergic to cats.

I live with roommates with three cats.

My body is scum claiming.

Scritches to all cats.

[RadiantCowbells]

Nah I just poisoned the well.

The setup has way too much TPR.

A newbie game gives scum a roleblocker against cop doc. This has two cops and a half doc.

So yeah definitely needed something to help there.

I believe your conception of normal balance is off.

[ItalianoVD]

Andres/MathBlade/NK15
For stats

sadge i tunneled on nk15 but hem was in that poe right above ):

Well played Koba. So glad no one listened to you when you died. Kinda going all over the place hurt your case.

If we didn’t get Scorpious I was just going to ignore you and paint you as the enby who claimed wolf. I was really hoping it didn’t come to that.

Lol, this was the reason I went for NK15 then I got lazy and didn't really want to solve anymore, which is terrible on my part. My bad, but I should have kept at it after you died.

[MathBlade]

Nah I just poisoned the well.

The setup has way too much TPR.

A newbie game gives scum a roleblocker against cop doc. This has two cops and a half doc.

So yeah definitely needed something to help there.

I believe your conception of normal balance is off.

Agree to disagree.

This (minus the micro) is the second or third game in a row that town also agrees there’s too much TPR/ITPR however you want to handle that.

[Malakittens]

Sorry I was apathetic. I kinda just had enough of HEM and the tunnel. I should have replaced out on My initial blow out, but whatever

I apologize to everyone

Gg scum & grats

[humaneatingmonkey]

i did what i had to do. sorry i had to play that card, malakittens. yes, the constant bugging was on purpose because it gave me positive results. social is part of the game, i guess.

please take the time off when you absolutely need it, though. some forum game for a site of 75~ people isn't worth the mental fatigue.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not gonna read the whole thread

Any townies think this game is scumsided want to raise hands