Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[RadiantCowbells]

Townsided *

[MathBlade]

Nah I just poisoned the well.

The setup has way too much TPR.

A newbie game gives scum a roleblocker against cop doc. This has two cops and a half doc.

So yeah definitely needed something to help there.

No, I don't think that this setup had too much TPR.
But it had too much ITPR.
2 investigative roles + 1 gated Jailkeeper is way too much investigative and roleblocking power. In the worst case you get full guilties(against every single mafia).

@RC there you go.

This needs the gunsmith even night and lazy tracker odd night and maybe that works. Or if neither of those remove the simple JK.

All together leads to > 50% odds of guilty which needs a defense.

[RadiantCowbells]

I sim this setup as sub 50% odds of a town win. I can't really help beyond that.

[MathBlade]

I sim this setup as sub 50% odds of a town win. I can't really help beyond that.

Then imho your sim is flawed.

A n1 guilty is the expected result in this scenario and with that town’s more often than not win unless it’s prepared for.

[MathBlade]

The only reason this was close is because town imploded and mass claimed.

[Malakittens]

i did what i had to do. sorry i had to play that card, malakittens. yes, the constant bugging was on purpose because it gave me positive results. social is part of the game, i guess.

please take the time off when you absolutely need it, though. some forum game for a site of 75~ people isn't worth the mental fatigue.

Between you & roden.
Then I had KOOPA and FL. I legit had enough of the game.

As for mafia making this a mental fatigue has nothing to do with it tbh. Math is already aware of the situation I got going on. I’m actively just placing my heart into a meat grinder every day talking to a girl (who I’ll prob never be with), but she’s actively amazing to be around. However my home life is starting to make me depressed and what not. So between that and everything I kinda have been wanting to just roll into a ball and die. I also snapped at her a week ago and now everything is weird and im kinda just over it. (She might be acting weird bc she might have figured out im gay since it’s not something known at my one job)

[RadiantCowbells]

I think you drastically underrate several things

1) The scum can convince town that a mafia doctor exists and render all their clears useless. Because of this no slots will actually end up cleared if scum approach it properly.

2) Gunsmith guilty is 50% likely to be town. Role cop automatically claims out of it, experienced scum can dodge it.

3) Tracker in 13p is an extremely low power role and the lazy affix takes away it's best use condition.

I don't think that my sim is flawed. The closest thing to evidence i have for that is that I expected 55% winrate for the newbie setup and hit that within 2%.

I believe that people have a very poor sense of how power roles actually impact the game: for example I'm sure a Cop Jailkeeper setup vs goons would have raised no questions but this version of the game is better for scum in basically every way

[humaneatingmonkey]

it was scumsided because mathblade was op

[humaneatingmonkey]

i hope you feel better malakittens

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that you have an issue where you overrated the harm done to scum teams by a member being guiltied. Typically a guiltied scum team member is one that was already in the line of fire anyway and often would have been limmed before endgame anyway. If that's the case all the guilty does is tells scum who to shoot.

[RadiantCowbells]

This game gives scum an incredible amount of outplay potential inherent to gunsmith setups. Frankly i would not have passed this because i think it's too easy for scum. If the knowledge is publicly available that scum win 60% of normal games and people still want to complain about setups like this I'm not quite sure what solution you want exactly. Barring making any claim about objectivity of balance, what winrate do you want to see for scum empirically, 70%?

[Gamma Emerald]

I sim this setup as sub 50% odds of a town win. I can't really help beyond that.

Then imho your sim is flawed.

A n1 guilty is the expected result in this scenario and with that town’s more often than not win unless it’s prepared for.

only the tracker and the jk could get guilties n1
a jk guilty is inconclusive and a tracker guilty is highly unlikely

[MathBlade]

This game gives scum an incredible amount of outplay potential inherent to gunsmith setups. Frankly i would not have passed this because i think it's too easy for scum. If the knowledge is publicly available that scum win 60% of normal games and people still want to complain about setups like this I'm not quite sure what solution you want exactly. Barring making any claim about objectivity of balance, what winrate do you want to see for scum empirically, 70%?

The win rates for scum go up the more PRs added.

It’s counter intuitive but VTs check out here.

I will respond to what you have earlier.

There’s only so much PR that should exist and shouldn’t need good scum like you or me to have a chance.

[MathBlade]

I sim this setup as sub 50% odds of a town win. I can't really help beyond that.

Then imho your sim is flawed.

A n1 guilty is the expected result in this scenario and with that town’s more often than not win unless it’s prepared for.

only the tracker and the jk could get guilties n1
a jk guilty is inconclusive and a tracker guilty is highly unlikely

Gunsmith can get guilty N1.

If gunsmith hadn’t claimed and didn’t know what was safe and try the majority of scum safe claims jk/vig enabler
They die
The VTs can’t claim rolecop because then soon as buddy dies they do.

Gunsmith is a 100% cop

[Gamma Emerald]

Gunsmith was even night

[RadiantCowbells]

I think scum that have no coherence of strategy, don't attempt to play to outs, lie down and die because GS guilty instead of claiming, don't have any initiative to push things themselves should lose. I think that town who don't do this kind of stuff lose. I don't think the execution requirements as scum should be lower than as town. Balancing around scum who flail and lurk and town who actively attempt to solve and make good night actions is... not my vision of how games should be balanced.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also gunsmith is like 1/3 as good as a cop max

[Gamma Emerald]

Wait nvm
I think it being even-night would have been fair

[RadiantCowbells]

With the every other night modifier

[MathBlade]

koopashell died last night. He was a

Town Odd-night Gunsmith

.

It is now Day 2!

Spoiler: good morning!

@Gamma Nope odd night

Even night would have been better

[MathBlade]

I think scum that have no coherence of strategy, don't attempt to play to outs, lie down and die because GS guilty instead of claiming, don't have any initiative to push things themselves should lose. I think that town who don't do this kind of stuff lose. I don't think the execution requirements as scum should be lower than as town. Balancing around scum who flail and lurk and town who actively attempt to solve and make good night actions is... not my vision of how games should be balanced.

Scum shouldn’t be forced to a certain playstyle.

My scum playstyle is towns miselim each other.

I play to outs and am good scum

But taking away all the outs and saying “be good” is not the answer

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't think so because as I pointed out i believe that as odd night the game is already weighted for scum not town. Lazy tracker is going to do nothing relevant to town wincon most games. Jailkeeper being simple gives scum a lot of leeway in how to approach the game in general.

Wdym you have no outs. Claim a role with a gun. Setup spec. Push that scum has a doc. Do the things that increase your wr instead of being a passive participant in the setup.

[MathBlade]

There is absolutely no fake claim for the goon that works on a GS guilty.

Rolecop claiming only buys you a day or two at most.

I really think how the NRG balances things is flawed fundamentally

If you can’t answer how scum win a setup it’s not balanced.

[RadiantCowbells]

There is absolutely no fake claim for the goon that works on a GS guilty.

Rolecop claiming only buys you a day or two at most.

I really think how the NRG balances things is flawed fundamentally

If you can’t answer how scum win a setup it’s not balanced.

You have a billion ways to win this game lol

Even if you don't convince town that scum has a doc and don't manage to postpone or dodhe getting guilty limmed from GS there's just not so much power that the game is impossible and Mr. Backup Vigilante is super mislimmable

[MathBlade]

I don't think so because as I pointed out i believe that as odd night the game is already weighted for scum not town. Lazy tracker is going to do nothing relevant to town wincon most games. Jailkeeper being simple gives scum a lot of leeway in how to approach the game in general.

Wdym you have no outs. Claim a role with a gun. Setup spec. Push that scum has a doc. Do the things that increase your wr instead of being a passive participant in the setup.

There is no role that can be claimed
JK << gets counter claimed
Cop << won’t be in a setup with a gs
Rolecop << scum has it
Vig / vig enabler << doesn’t work in a normal (does in theme)

Once a VT gets guiltied by a GS they’re on a timer of how fast they die