Micro 1054 || Fuzzy Friends Coalition || Game Over!

[skitter30]

i'm not saying that would be my one and only plan. i'm not even saying it's "likely" that succeeds. but it is A Plan that Might work, and i have no reason to immediately shoot that plan into the foot by pointing out that nk15 is not townie and in fact here is a scumgame where he loltunnelled his partner!!

like idk why you're assuming as if scum!me can have only one plan and that scum!me can work towards only one plan at a time. it isn't unviable to be trying to get townread as a backup, but also not immediately sinking nk15 when people are townreading him for garbage reasons

i'm in the coalition. nk is out of the coalition. if we are a team, you are ALWAYS flipping me before him. which means that by the time you start looking for nk, I AM FLIPPED SCUM. with that knowledge in mind, i make an incriminating post towards my partner... WHY? (unless your answer is "wifom" to which my answer would be "i don't use wifom as scum like that because most of the townies only ever use level-zero-logic" but y'know.)

you wrote the following, and framed it as how you would have behaved in a you/nk15 universe. i responded to that hypothetical, as i read the following as what you would try to do in the nk/dats s/s universe
and if that's not what you were saying you would have tried to do, fine: how would you have approached that universe

(2) this universe would be 100x easier to win if i don't shut down the nk15 townreads in the beginning but instead scumread enough other players to get him into the coalition, flip him, then carry myself; as opposed to getting myself into the coalition and banking on winning by flipping 3 out of skitt/irrel/mena/ari before myself

wrt the last paragraph above: i'm still not sure why you wouldn't, or you're describing it as an 'incriminating' post ...

[skitter30]

well NK15 wanted to kill me or dats

and mala wanted to kill me

so wouldn't it make sense for you to push me given it's cleanest trajectory and you have 2 votes that are leaning that way already?

i think the trajectory would have been cleaner on dats but fair enuf

[skitter30]

like if you said "why do you not want std in? have you considered he's town because xyz" then like yeah i would've conceded you pushed your thing it didn't work. but where is you trying to change anyone's mind on him?

i indicated repeatedly i wanted him for like 4+ irl days. i asked several people if they would vote for him.
i probalby could have done more prior, but that's what i was able to do that morning. saying that i didn't try (and again skipping the posts where i was actually gauging if it was possible or not and asking people if they would join me) is inaccurate as well

[skitter30]

again dats why are you even framing this as std vs ari - that wasn't really the choice i was weighing and dichtomy was never really reflected in the gamestate either

[skitter30]

1038 is a hmm post to me because i felt like std was viable at the time and the fact that she was going "is std viable? no? i guess i can remove him..." is Concerning

plz elaborate how he was viable at that time, thank you
also nothing you posted prior to this was me strongly wanting ari in

other people were townreading him. he was basically around the 5th-6th place the whole time. changing mine or ari's minds would've made him viable.

are you purposefully twisting my words? i'm not saying you "strongly wanted ari in", i'm saying you kept nudging how you'd be maybe sorta fine i guess with her being in the coalition and

not doing much to actually kick her out

.

ok i did this above:
you didn't want std
ari didn't want std in
irrel wasn't going to vote for anything that didn't include you/ari
fire was scumreading std
mala is scumreading you/ari/mena (and i was sus of her anyways)
i don't know offhand what mena was voting at the time but i wasn't banking on talking to him before he had to leave given his activity

where were the votes for my coalition coming from exactly? if you'd like to show me where i could have gotten my coalition from at that point, i'd have been very happy to hear. i was trying to assess what i could actually vote for that could happen, and putting ari in looked like it was the most likely option to have happened
it's not like i could have just exchanged ari for my top scumread (as see above), so i'm not even sure what your point is exactly for the bolded
like i'm not sure at that point what you think i ought to have done

i'm also not even sure what we're arguing about or if we're talking past each other

[skitter30]

*for my top townread

[skitter30]

HURT: all
HEAL: me, ari, dats, irrel, std

also another thing

its super weird to me that you wanted this coalition instead of the one that passed which switches out Mena for STD but you also have Mena as untouchable today after failure which is like a ??????

i also explained this already - ari/dats -> irrel -> mena -> std
i townread std more than the rest of you, but townread mena quite strongly

it, again, wasn't an option to swap ari/dats for std and have both std and mena (which, again, was the core of the coalition *i* wanted)
so given that it looked likely to have ari/dats/me as a core i was working with what i had left

like having std over mena isn't an indictment of mena

[skitter30]

i'm kinda confused what part of this is confusing given my reads throughout the entire day

[skitter30]

We are flipping Aristeia. If Ari is town, we are flipping skitter. If Ari is scum, we flip Datisi. Does anyone disagree?

literally the entire game
for the third time: why did you hammer the coalition
why are you now bringing up mena/mala as a aviable option and then pushing the above?

[Aristeia]

would you have wanted irrel/std/mena/skitter/me?

cuz thats what i literally offered you

[skitter30]

on friday i would have taken that, yes
i don't think you offered that on friday. i don't remember exactly when and i think at that point i wasn't resigned to having included you at that point

[Aristeia]

well you were the most healed person the first time I did a VC so I guess you're kind of stuck being the leader unless someone else wants it.

I can be your fifth if you want me to be your fifth because I know I'm town but if you don't know it I suggest you find someone you can trust.

this is me on friday ^

i am offering to vote for your coalition + anyone

the only reason i wasnt ok with fifth being datisi is because of how his coalition overlapped and that you said you wanted to yeet him on failure.

[skitter30]

Me/mena/irrel/std

Ok so is this a viable core, and if yes, who should the fifth be?

this was me following up to that and asking if we actually had the numbers for that
and you said p soon thereafter that you wouldn't do it since dats wasn't in it

[Aristeia]

@ari why not std?

I am sheeping Dats because in the world where we have to kill him I want him to have a chance to win for us

and this was my response to you on it.

"the world where we have to kill him" refers to him being your fifth on your core. as in if you want to murder him on coalition failure, then he should at least get to pick his coalition as in me instead of std.

i am not against being your fifth or voting for a coalition without dats on it.

[Aristeia]

if you are extremely certain irrel/mena are town i can flip dats and then nk15 if dats is scum but id want to flip you tomm if dats is town

[skitter30]

I'm gonna be honest i'm not even sure what we're arguing abt any more

You, at the end of the day, were not interested in the coalition that i wanted. The reason may have been valid and made sense, but you werent voting for me/you/mena/irrel/std
I wouldnt have been trying to murder dats there, as he wasnt in it -> this wasnt what i wanted as it included you and dats and didn't include std, and i dont understand how your explanation even applies to the above coalition as dats wasnt in it.
You werent going to vote for me/dats/mena/std/irrel for the reasons above

I took this convo as you not being willing to vote for me/mena/irrel/std in either incarnation (and thus it wasnt viable) and that you wanted to sheep him over me

[skitter30]

I'm only thay certain mena is town
I am not nearly close enuf to being certain on irrel

[Datisi]

i had like 8 hours between that moment and when i was leaving for the weekend
including a full day of work in between

you indicated you weren't likely
ari indicated she wasn't likely
irrel was unlikely to vote for something excluding you and ari given his reads
mena was eeeeehhhhh if he'd be around to talk to before i had to leave
i don't think i would have supported (or gotten) a coalition with a core of mena/me/irrel/std given who was remaining to even vote for it
fire also strongly scumread std
std scumread mena

if you/ari were anti it, where were the votes meant to come from exactly
who else was i supposed to ask?

like sure if you want to say earlier in the day i should have done. i probably should have, but i hadn't, and that morning i was trying to see what was available with the votes remaining, and that wasn't.

i had also towncased std at least once, prior in the day iirc

i think you're significantly over-emphasizing my support of ari being in, and i again strongly object to you saying that i didn't try to get std in as you gloss over me literally asking 2 key players if they'd include him
(i'm also not sure why you're framing this as a dichotomy between ari/std, when it wasn't ...)

okay, that was at the time you didn't have much time until you had to leave for the weekend. okay. assuming that meant you did not have time to lay out your reasons for wanting std in the coalition, then sure. at that point, there probably wasn't much you could've done.

you have been townreading std for a while, i think he was one of your first heals. where did you make a towncase? i ctrl+f'ed "std" in your iso, the closest thing to a towncase i found was 527, which is uh, very short and not really persuasive of a towncase.

how am i over-emphasizing it? you can say all you want that ari was not your first choice. but you made a lot of posts where you were toying with the idea of having her in the coalition. if you were really that strongly townreading std over her, why were you not doing more to get std in? and i'm framing it as a dichotomy because that's where the conflict is coming from. you strongly townread std, you weren't townreading ari. the coalition has failed with ari in it and with std out. so the natural question is why weren't you doing more to get him in?

and yes, i'm glossing over you asking two key players whether we'd include him when it was pretty clear we wouldn't (i know i made it known tha i townread ari over std, not sure what ari's public stance was at the time) and you didn't do anything to try to convince me otherwise. sure, if you didn't have time in that moment, that that's nai, i guess. but don't pretend like you asking that the way you did was in any way likely to end up putting std in

[Datisi]

i'm not saying that would be my one and only plan. i'm not even saying it's "likely" that succeeds. but it is A Plan that Might work, and i have no reason to immediately shoot that plan into the foot by pointing out that nk15 is not townie and in fact here is a scumgame where he loltunnelled his partner!!

like idk why you're assuming as if scum!me can have only one plan and that scum!me can work towards only one plan at a time. it isn't unviable to be trying to get townread as a backup, but also not immediately sinking nk15 when people are townreading him for garbage reasons

i'm in the coalition. nk is out of the coalition. if we are a team, you are ALWAYS flipping me before him. which means that by the time you start looking for nk, I AM FLIPPED SCUM. with that knowledge in mind, i make an incriminating post towards my partner... WHY? (unless your answer is "wifom" to which my answer would be "i don't use wifom as scum like that because most of the townies only ever use level-zero-logic" but y'know.)

you wrote the following, and framed it as how you would have behaved in a you/nk15 universe. i responded to that hypothetical, as i read the following as what you would try to do in the nk/dats s/s universe
and if that's not what you were saying you would have tried to do, fine: how would you have approached that universe

(2) this universe would be 100x easier to win if i don't shut down the nk15 townreads in the beginning but instead scumread enough other players to get him into the coalition, flip him, then carry myself; as opposed to getting myself into the coalition and banking on winning by flipping 3 out of skitt/irrel/mena/ari before myself

wrt the last paragraph above: i'm still not sure why you wouldn't, or you're describing it as an 'incriminating' post ...

this is annoying because this is going to be a long post that's nai and nobody else is gonna read it, but:

in 1295, i'm saying that if the scumteam is nk/dats, it's easier to win if nk is in the coalition than if i am - because scum!nk wouldn't exactly be a menace here, and it's on me to actually push things though. scum needs three misyeets to win, and i will have an easier time if i can push anyone than just my coalition buddies. if i'm in the coalition and he's not, then i have to push through 3/4 of my coalition members. if he's in the coalition and i'm not, after he flips, i can push whoever i want. (this is assuming he would die right after i would die if i were to die first, which i'm assuming because uh yeah i don't think scum!nk survives long in this pl, no offense.)

therefore, if i enter the game and i see the town townreading my partner!nk for absolutely atrocious reasons, *i keep my mouth shut*. there is literally nothing that scum!datisi gains by going "hey guys, you're townreading nk15 for bad reasons, also here's a scumgame where he loltunnelled his partners, ok bye"

i don't know how i would've approached the universe. it depends on how the game would've shaken out. but i know i would not have shut down the early townreads of my partner because it does not benefit me at all.

wrt the last paragraph: do we agree on the fact that my 1199 is Bad Associates between me/nk if i were to flip first? in a dats/nk world in a normal game, that post would serve the purpose of protecting nk15 with the drawback that if i flip first, he looks worse.

BUT, in the current game, I AM ALWAYS FLIPPING FIRST. there is no point in me writing a post to protect my out-of-coalition buddy when he is never flipping before me.

therefore, why would scum!me write that post about my partner?

does that make sense?

[Datisi]

like if you said "why do you not want std in? have you considered he's town because xyz" then like yeah i would've conceded you pushed your thing it didn't work. but where is you trying to change anyone's mind on him?

i indicated repeatedly i wanted him for like 4+ irl days. i asked several people if they would vote for him.
i probalby could have done more prior, but that's what i was able to do that morning. saying that i didn't try (and again skipping the posts where i was actually gauging if it was possible or not and asking people if they would join me) is inaccurate as well

okay. i'm not saying you didn't say you preferred std in your coalition. i'm saying you did nothing to actually push him through. saying "i want std in my coalition" doesn't actually make it likelier that he's gonna get put in because you're not providing reasons why he should be in it.

[Aristeia]

i was fine with voting for you/std/irrel/mena/me

when i offer to be your fifth, the implication is that i would vote for it

[Datisi]

ari, who do you currently think is scum in the coalition?

[Aristeia]

i dont have enough from the two that aren't talking rn

[Not Known 15]

We are flipping Aristeia. If Ari is town, we are flipping skitter. If Ari is scum, we flip Datisi. Does anyone disagree?

literally the entire game
for the third time: why did you hammer the coalition
why are you now bringing up mena/mala as a aviable option and then pushing the above?

I hammered the coalition because there was no way a coalition without ari/dats was passing, so I approved a coalition with ari/dats in it to increase the chances to yeet.
Because ari/dats is higher in my list and because, if ari is town, I can sheep her Day 2 instead.

[skitter30]

@dats

wrt not pushing std more: this is nai and you're not going to like it but the honest answer is that i was busy/stressed irl and lazy here and half-efforting. i probably should have done more, but didn't. that's on me but it is what it is. i don't think i was doing a ton more than i did last week tbh as either alignment. i kept kinda announcing my read there to gauge what the receptiveness was towards it and to see if it was viable. it didn't look like it was for a lot of the day, so i started seeing what else i could vote for. you were also p clear that you were anti-std for a large portion fo the day, and i didn't think it would be that likely that i'd be able to convince you, esp. after you didn't respond to 527, and i did also try to address the main issues i saw with fire's case on him in 589. i thought i had written more of a towncase, but i don't see one. he was one of my strongest townreads, i probably should have done more, but didn't think it was super viable and was lazy.

wrt nk15: by him getting in the coalition you're basically committing to bussing and i'm not convinced that's better for you, no. i think that the 'i wouldn't tear down scumreads on him as his partner!!' only holds in that universe, and i'm not convinced that's the approach you'd have taken. wrt 1199, i do see your point, so fair enuf

also: what is the point of this line of questioning? you think ari is town. you don't think the coalition failed through that. if you're arguing this is scummy of me: what is my scum motivation for this / what does scum-me get out of this given that you think ari is town anyways? the outcome per your worldview is not what led to the failed coalition anyways ?

i was fine with voting for you/std/irrel/mena/me

when i offer to be your fifth, the implication is that i would vote for it

ok fair enuf, but that's not how i understood it at the time, so i didn't take you up on it.