Open 853 - PYP X/Y S_S [game over!]

[Aristeia]

To be clear I don't agree with the premise of "HEM-scum means there must be an active scum". I have no idea why that is necessarily true, or even why it'd be particularly likely. It sounds like you're just basing it on one anecdote?

I am basing it on knowing scum HEM.

Put scum HEM in the same instances (inactive scum)

You should get the same conclusion (wagons disappears)

This didn’t happen.

You have a recent scum game where I replaced in with HEM and what I did and can observe

Yes it’s one game but it’s like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole

It just doesn’t fit

so you're saying Scum!HEM can never be wagoned and elimmed day one because he's such a good scum player that it would just never happen hence if a wagon forms on him he must be town?

[Roden]

Spoiler: Ari

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

literally the only times you spend lots of thread time fighting with me over mech in a way that makes no sense to me is when you're scum and making shit up.

for example:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351

and

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284

Spoiler: Math

right now my scum team guess is just enchant - hem - you

Ausuka, Gamma, Titus, STD are my strongest TRs

Dwlee, Bella are townleans.

Roden, Mala, Implo, Harley are null

Cool

Then you’re scum because imho 2/3rds of that are bad almost certainly

So I think I might be right for the wrong reason.

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

VOTE: Ari

I don’t think this ever picks up today and it’s more posterity but I feel confident enough here to vote.

except every time you wasted my time with a mech argument that's senseless you've been scum so why would I townread you for it this time?

Because we aren’t arguing over mech

We are arguing over scum theory and what players would and wouldn’t do

And it’s not been a waste of time

I forgot how much I hate playing with scum you because when I am not scum I have the charisma of nothing because I don’t know the lay of the land

But how about you prove it and vote me?

I flip town then you go brag about how “right” you are

Then you flip tomorrow.

Chicken?

Math's scum read on Ari feels really fake. She uses meta to scum read him first, and he retaliates by doing the same back. And he suddenly acts like he "knows" she's scum.

They're both using Burden of Proficiency for their meta reads, which typically I hate but I hate Math's more. Claiming "every time we disagree/you're wrong on mech it's because you're scum" and then providing examples at the very least has a basis in reality. But Math simply saying "you're never bad town so you have to be scum" is just, awful.

I am not using BoP. If I am sure enough that I'm willing to BoP my life on it, I will say so.

Me and mathblade have played a total of four games together. (2 TvT and 2 TvS)

in two of them he was scum who was making up mech nonsense - mini 2226 and micro 1053

in one of them he rep'd into a mason slot and claimed mason

in the other one of them he rep'd into an mech confirmed investigated innocent slot that was force replaced because previous player decided to try to use unfair means to townspew himself.

At no point have I ever had to actually read for Town!Mathblade, so his thing about me getting his alignment correct is just nonsensical.

It is for this account. I can’t refute this without alt outing you.

So yes, this is technically correct, but spiritually a lie.

This is why I really dislike arguing with scum!you/not listening you.

Just to be clear, are you claiming that you two have played together more than just the four games Ari mentioned? If you include other accounts?

[Roden]

Alt outing isn't necessary btw

[implosion]

Put scum HEM in the same instances (inactive scum)

You should get the same conclusion (wagons disappears)

I'm quite confident that there are many, many, many, many, many, many more things that contribute to whether a wagon maintains itself or dissolves than "whether the other scum are active". And I see no reason why "the other scum being active" should be prioritized as an important thing to consider in that dynamic. Even if it is an important part of the dynamic of wagons on scum staying alive or not, they're two different games... one single game where this one player had a wagon that happened to dissipate doesn't mean all games with that player will have the same result if one thing about them is the same. This just seems absurd.

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Ari

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

literally the only times you spend lots of thread time fighting with me over mech in a way that makes no sense to me is when you're scum and making shit up.

for example:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351

and

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284

Spoiler: Math

right now my scum team guess is just enchant - hem - you

Ausuka, Gamma, Titus, STD are my strongest TRs

Dwlee, Bella are townleans.

Roden, Mala, Implo, Harley are null

Cool

Then you’re scum because imho 2/3rds of that are bad almost certainly

So I think I might be right for the wrong reason.

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

VOTE: Ari

I don’t think this ever picks up today and it’s more posterity but I feel confident enough here to vote.

except every time you wasted my time with a mech argument that's senseless you've been scum so why would I townread you for it this time?

Because we aren’t arguing over mech

We are arguing over scum theory and what players would and wouldn’t do

And it’s not been a waste of time

I forgot how much I hate playing with scum you because when I am not scum I have the charisma of nothing because I don’t know the lay of the land

But how about you prove it and vote me?

I flip town then you go brag about how “right” you are

Then you flip tomorrow.

Chicken?

Math's scum read on Ari feels really fake. She uses meta to scum read him first, and he retaliates by doing the same back. And he suddenly acts like he "knows" she's scum.

They're both using Burden of Proficiency for their meta reads, which typically I hate but I hate Math's more. Claiming "every time we disagree/you're wrong on mech it's because you're scum" and then providing examples at the very least has a basis in reality. But Math simply saying "you're never bad town so you have to be scum" is just, awful.

She is or is in a place where she won’t talk with me

So I have quit responding to her for the night

It would be like you all of a sudden posting one liners

It’s a huge difference when she’s wrong

I think she was trying to talk to you, honestly you're both saying the same thing in different ways. But she got tilted which tilted you in return.

What I don't get is why you're saying she's wrong. Like unless I misread it looks like you're saying her reads are wrong, but it's Day 1 so I'm not sure how you could know that. Like at best I could understand heavily disagreeing with her reads, but flat out saying she's wrong doesn't make sense to me.

What exactly is wrong with her reads?

I really don’t get that vibe.

I feel like she had an agenda of spewing the mechanical things for a reason. It’s what I do as scum, spin individually factually correct statements. By talking on mech she avoids having to actually play a social game

She’s wrong = heavily disagreeing. There’s always a chance I am wrong, but the odds of that are slim.
There’s something HEM did that I extremely doubt that the scum team would permit him to do.

She’s like put her buckets in an HEM world I don’t think she wants to consider being wrong.

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Ari

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

literally the only times you spend lots of thread time fighting with me over mech in a way that makes no sense to me is when you're scum and making shit up.

for example:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351

and

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284

Spoiler: Math

right now my scum team guess is just enchant - hem - you

Ausuka, Gamma, Titus, STD are my strongest TRs

Dwlee, Bella are townleans.

Roden, Mala, Implo, Harley are null

Cool

Then you’re scum because imho 2/3rds of that are bad almost certainly

So I think I might be right for the wrong reason.

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

VOTE: Ari

I don’t think this ever picks up today and it’s more posterity but I feel confident enough here to vote.

except every time you wasted my time with a mech argument that's senseless you've been scum so why would I townread you for it this time?

Because we aren’t arguing over mech

We are arguing over scum theory and what players would and wouldn’t do

And it’s not been a waste of time

I forgot how much I hate playing with scum you because when I am not scum I have the charisma of nothing because I don’t know the lay of the land

But how about you prove it and vote me?

I flip town then you go brag about how “right” you are

Then you flip tomorrow.

Chicken?

Math's scum read on Ari feels really fake. She uses meta to scum read him first, and he retaliates by doing the same back. And he suddenly acts like he "knows" she's scum.

They're both using Burden of Proficiency for their meta reads, which typically I hate but I hate Math's more. Claiming "every time we disagree/you're wrong on mech it's because you're scum" and then providing examples at the very least has a basis in reality. But Math simply saying "you're never bad town so you have to be scum" is just, awful.

I am not using BoP. If I am sure enough that I'm willing to BoP my life on it, I will say so.

Me and mathblade have played a total of four games together. (2 TvT and 2 TvS)

in two of them he was scum who was making up mech nonsense - mini 2226 and micro 1053

in one of them he rep'd into a mason slot and claimed mason

in the other one of them he rep'd into an mech confirmed investigated innocent slot that was force replaced because previous player decided to try to use unfair means to townspew himself.

At no point have I ever had to actually read for Town!Mathblade, so his thing about me getting his alignment correct is just nonsensical.

It is for this account. I can’t refute this without alt outing you.

So yes, this is technically correct, but spiritually a lie.

This is why I really dislike arguing with scum!you/not listening you.

Just to be clear, are you claiming that you two have played together more than just the four games Ari mentioned? If you include other accounts?

I believe this to be the case yes.

However she says those accounts are dead.

I therefore will not refute her statement and will treat this as fact to avoid alt outing her.

[Aristeia]

I think a lot about whether I am wrong actually.

[MathBlade]

Put scum HEM in the same instances (inactive scum)

You should get the same conclusion (wagons disappears)

I'm quite confident that there are many, many, many, many, many, many more things that contribute to whether a wagon maintains itself or dissolves than "whether the other scum are active". And I see no reason why "the other scum being active" should be prioritized as an important thing to consider in that dynamic. Even if it is an important part of the dynamic of wagons on scum staying alive or not, they're two different games... one single game where this one player had a wagon that happened to dissipate doesn't mean all games with that player will have the same result if one thing about them is the same. This just seems absurd.

There are but they tend to be side factors

A single active scum wagoned on their own depends on the sheer strength of that scum to get out of it and the strength of the town pushing. Top tier town (yes I am assuming that it’s not all of like Ari Titus + others scum team for this) in this game. Top/mid tier town the other game.

Yes there are people different in each game but there’s not enough difference.

[Aristeia]

I should stop talking to you for a bit before I get worked up again.

have fun Mathblade

[implosion]

There’s always a chance I am wrong, but the odds of that are slim.

I think a lot about whether I am wrong actually.

You know, I was chatting with a professor who I've been working with over the past few months at a house party a week ago. We were talking about the double slit experiment and the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, because he's working on a thing related to them and I was part of a focus group that talked about that thing. And I think the double slit experiment is fascinating - it absolutely in no way jives with any intuition any person could possibly have. Yet it somehow is the way it is.

I think it's a great way to frame just how easy it is for people to be wrong about things they have perfect confidence in, and I think it's a good lens to see how important it is to inject a healthy dose of humility into the way that we navigate the world.

Why do you think the odds of you being wrong are slim? Are you just, that good at this game?

[MathBlade]

To be clear I don't agree with the premise of "HEM-scum means there must be an active scum". I have no idea why that is necessarily true, or even why it'd be particularly likely. It sounds like you're just basing it on one anecdote?

I am basing it on knowing scum HEM.

Put scum HEM in the same instances (inactive scum)

You should get the same conclusion (wagons disappears)

This didn’t happen.

You have a recent scum game where I replaced in with HEM and what I did and can observe

Yes it’s one game but it’s like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole

It just doesn’t fit

so you're saying Scum!HEM can never be wagoned and elimmed day one because he's such a good scum player that it would just never happen hence if a wagon forms on him he must be town?

Pretty much if it succeeds. Yep. He got wagoned D1 as scum in the game I linked but it didn’t pass.

Same with Titus.

Last time she’s been elimmed D1 as scum I don’t remember

There’s just some things that don’t happen.

[Roden]

Spoiler: Ari

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

literally the only times you spend lots of thread time fighting with me over mech in a way that makes no sense to me is when you're scum and making shit up.

for example:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351

and

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284

Spoiler: Math

right now my scum team guess is just enchant - hem - you

Ausuka, Gamma, Titus, STD are my strongest TRs

Dwlee, Bella are townleans.

Roden, Mala, Implo, Harley are null

Cool

Then you’re scum because imho 2/3rds of that are bad almost certainly

So I think I might be right for the wrong reason.

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

VOTE: Ari

I don’t think this ever picks up today and it’s more posterity but I feel confident enough here to vote.

except every time you wasted my time with a mech argument that's senseless you've been scum so why would I townread you for it this time?

Because we aren’t arguing over mech

We are arguing over scum theory and what players would and wouldn’t do

And it’s not been a waste of time

I forgot how much I hate playing with scum you because when I am not scum I have the charisma of nothing because I don’t know the lay of the land

But how about you prove it and vote me?

I flip town then you go brag about how “right” you are

Then you flip tomorrow.

Chicken?

Math's scum read on Ari feels really fake. She uses meta to scum read him first, and he retaliates by doing the same back. And he suddenly acts like he "knows" she's scum.

They're both using Burden of Proficiency for their meta reads, which typically I hate but I hate Math's more. Claiming "every time we disagree/you're wrong on mech it's because you're scum" and then providing examples at the very least has a basis in reality. But Math simply saying "you're never bad town so you have to be scum" is just, awful.

She is or is in a place where she won’t talk with me

So I have quit responding to her for the night

It would be like you all of a sudden posting one liners

It’s a huge difference when she’s wrong

I think she was trying to talk to you, honestly you're both saying the same thing in different ways. But she got tilted which tilted you in return.

What I don't get is why you're saying she's wrong. Like unless I misread it looks like you're saying her reads are wrong, but it's Day 1 so I'm not sure how you could know that. Like at best I could understand heavily disagreeing with her reads, but flat out saying she's wrong doesn't make sense to me.

What exactly is wrong with her reads?

I really don’t get that vibe.

I feel like she had an agenda of spewing the mechanical things for a reason. It’s what I do as scum, spin individually factually correct statements. By talking on mech she avoids having to actually play a social game

She’s wrong = heavily disagreeing. There’s always a chance I am wrong, but the odds of that are slim.
There’s something HEM did that I extremely doubt that the scum team would permit him to do.

She’s like put her buckets in an HEM world I don’t think she wants to consider being wrong.

I don't think she's avoiding playing a social game. I get your point about focusing on mechanics = scummy, but her ISO shows her talking about more than just mechanics and interacting with a decent amount of the player list.

Which of her reads do you heavily disagree with besides HEM?

Also what did HEM do that you think the scum team wouldn't permit him to do?

[Roden]

What's the double slit experiment btw? Is it relevant to the game or should I just google it?

[MathBlade]

There’s always a chance I am wrong, but the odds of that are slim.

I think a lot about whether I am wrong actually.

You know, I was chatting with a professor who I've been working with over the past few months at a house party a week ago. We were talking about the double slit experiment and the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, because he's working on a thing related to them and I was part of a focus group that talked about that thing. And I think the double slit experiment is fascinating - it absolutely in no way jives with any intuition any person could possibly have. Yet it somehow is the way it is.

I think it's a great way to frame just how easy it is for people to be wrong about things they have perfect confidence in, and I think it's a good lens to see how important it is to inject a healthy dose of humility into the way that we navigate the world.

Why do you think the odds of you being wrong are slim? Are you just, that good at this game?

I think the odds of me being wrong on HEM are due to experience with HEM recently.

Notice my other reads are quite nebulous.

Notice how no one else wants to talk other reads no matter how much I try to bring up other slots

It reeks of desperation trying to keep this elim alive.

I keep trying to build theories of who scum could be but I keep having to come back to defending HEM versus having a clear conversation and being able to hunt.

I don’t get super strong reads but when I do I do and they’ve almost always been right when they are this strong of a townread.

Where I would say I am possibly wrong is Ari being reactionary and town (as I think I have said before)

But I really don’t think I am wrong on HEM town here

[implosion]

What's the double slit experiment btw? Is it relevant to the game or should I just google it?

No it's not relevant to the game; yes you should google it because it's *extremely* strange and lays bare just how little we know about the universe.

[MathBlade]

I can get tunnelled onto a scumread and that’s a flaw I have but I am very very good at defending my TRs.

[Harley Quinn]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89313

Here you go HQ.

I was more laid back because most of active town blew itself up that game. There was a point when Jackson fake claimed a guilty on HEM but then backed off which luckily defused the wagon or town probably would have won.

I loathe fake guilties on principle.

[implosion]

I would like to officially lodge a formal complaint that I am being (directly or indirectly, and by different people) accused of both desperately trying to keep the HEM lim alive, and of refusing to commit to the HEM wagon in favor of shopping for alternatives

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89392

Take here for example

I had an inno on Gamma and was literally just inventing shit and damn near soft claimed to Titus the inno and she still wouldn’t back off Gamma.

I always defend townreads hard when I have reason to

And here I think a case just doesn’t match up with me playing with HEM scum recently.

[implosion]

Anyway. Good night thread. I expect to wake up to at least double, if not triple the current page count. Don't disappoint me.

[Datisi]

prodding Malakittens and Enchant.

[MathBlade]

I would like to officially lodge a formal complaint that I am being (directly or indirectly, and by different people) accused of both desperately trying to keep the HEM lim alive, and of refusing to commit to the HEM wagon in favor of shopping for alternatives

Complaint lodged.

I accept that I am saying both because I think you’re doing both and I think it’s NAI

[Harley Quinn]

Gamma is asking her questions because she is playing differently from how she normally plays on her other accounts.

He is not asking for her main, he's asking if she's playing differently for a reason

I that’s not quite it
I don’t know how or why Roden says there’s a difference here, once HQ started providing content it felt like business as usual
I was just trying to clarify Roden’s meaning. But I don’t have full confidence that there isn’t some minute aspect that differs that I’ve never noticed.

I think she is a lot less active than her townself but the game has barely started so it will be fairly obvious later down the line.

I was in a recent game offsite, where I didn’t make a single post d1, barely posted d2, posted little on d3 but suddenly became active on d4 and yes, I was town in that. Activity is ai for me.

wut

???

It’s true, I nearly got replaced twice.

You seem to be saying you’d be more active as scum? Or is it specifically that the low presence is a towntell?

No, I’ve lurked out as town, I’ve lurked out as scum. I’m saying activity is never a reliable alignment tell, which is something I’ve stated numerous times in games. I’ve done any and everything activitywise in games as every possible alignment and that includes 3p.

[MathBlade]

Good night

Someone break my refresh button

[Datisi]

,