Open 853 - PYP X/Y S_S [game over!]

[Harley Quinn]

you accused std of scumreading you because you smoked him too many times as scum

the subtext is that he's town.

I don't think math addressed this yet, I'd like if he would

I did? Or if I follow I don’t know what you’re asking so can’t address it?

I think it’s SOP for StD?

why do you not think StD could be using you as a scapegoat or smth?

smth?

[implosion]

Gosh golly this is a bad post. Town does not say "This future behavior: if this is what you see in the future, push the people who do it" because scum will just... not do that if they genuinely think it's going to get them caught.

it's not smart to say but why does town never say it?

"never" is a very silly word to use in mafia. See: that rant I went on about MathBlade being too certain of things.

I think town will rarely make that post because it doesn't jive with the way town think about being wagoned. I don't think the mindset when town is being wagoned is typically "well, clearly someone on my wagon is scum but I have no idea who. I'll just say that and let everyone else sort it out and it'll be fine", because town typically either have a strong investment in winning the game (in which case, they'll be more specific or more helpful) or an emotional investment in the game (which hem's posting IMO does not demonstrate - they seem... fine with dying, based on a reaction that amounts to "well, if i'm limmed, just look at my wagon, mkay?")

Like, compare this post from me in a game from 6 years ago where I was being wagoned and eventually got mislimmed from it. This game springs to my mind whenever I'm trying to think about how town reacts to wagons, because I had both this investment in winning and an emotional investment in my wagon. I was desperately trying to figure it out, desperately proposing alternative lims and trying to get people on board with them. Trying to solve the game. hem's doing nothing of that sort, they've given no analysis of anyone on their wagon, no real reads, nothing to go off of but "hey, my wagon sure is terrible". And that is the absolute easiest thing in the world to fake as scum.

No, I'm not trying to say "all town will react the same way I did six years ago to being wagoned". But there are a lot of things about this reaction that just feels extremely not how town reacts to wagons in general. Like. Let's look at the important sentences from that post again, and lets add in their most recent post.

watch my wagon. that's a wagon on town. if people push for it aggressively without trying to parse more info from me, that means it's scum-motivated..

if yall decide to L me, just watch out for people who just rode this wagon. yall smart and also i forgive you.

if you flip town... no shit it's a wagon on town, and no shit people are going to scrutinize it. That's how the game works. Obviously we're going to watch out for people who rode the wagon. Obviously we're going to look at who pushed aggressively, and who didn't.

My take on these posts from hem is that they are vapid nothingness masquerading as a reaction. They're posts from scum who are doing the bare minimum to look like they have any investment in solving their wagon, but who has posted a huge amount of posts without making any meaningful effort to do so. Town doesn't "never" make these posts, but they have an extremely straightforward explanation from scum, and they lack any indicators of a player who is viewing the way in the way town in their position generally will be.

The only way i can imagine hem can make those posts as town is if hem is just, detached from this game. Like, I could see those posts coming from town who just doesn't care, sees their wagon as inevitable, and wants to get it over with so they can get out of this game. But that's not the vibe that hem's other posting gives, either in content or in volume.

[Harley Quinn]

normally I mesh rlly well with town!Titus
I'm not getting that feeling rn, so I'm concerned
I felt similar in mini 2272

I wish people would provide links rather than just numbers, that makes it a lot easier to look them up. But you’re saying, if Titus has different takes than you, that’s somehow scum indicative? Because I don’t think that’s necessarily a great metric to read someone. In reverse yes, mindmelding is usually a good sign but the converse by itself isn’t necessarily. Tone-wise she feels townie to me here.

I don't have to agree with Titus
I just have to feel comfortable about her reads/get her thought process

Yeah, that makes total sense.

[Harley Quinn]

I agree with this. Ari assumes I’m assuming, that because town!her’s first pick would be AC. it would defacto be everyone’s default pick. I agree, it’s totally player dependent.

implosion's take on it was probably pretty similar to mine

I don’t think it even makes sense to pick 1 AC because that would make you the first NK and then your pick would be wasted.

[Harley Quinn]

I think picking ascetic cop is much stronger than picking a jailkeeper/roleblocker type role because ascetic cop can't be blocked in the first place and by picking it you are essentially permanently blocking the cop.

Absolutely.

Mafia players don't always play optimally.

Again, this isn't really

important

, I'm just annoyed that we're basically Contractually Obligated to let Enchant not-play-the-game for 2-3 days.

If someone else was playing like Enchant has this game with top pick, would you have the same attitude towards them?

Enchant was being blatantly scummy and weird in that game Implosion linked. Here he’s just nai for me so far.

thoughts on enchant in relation to chromavalon?
I don't like his Ari vote

Nai for Enchant. Ari says she will policy him on d3, so he votes her.

[Harley Quinn]

A smattering of points on hem. I'm going to do this by just going backwards through his ISO because it'll hopefully avoid common ground with previous cases (plus I think their recent play is worse than their early play). And I will start by re-mentioning this. Their most recent post is very similar, and fit in line with what I described of hem's play being aesthetic rather than material: rather than picking out specific people and targeting them, or trying to appeal to specific people on the wagon, or really making any real effort to use their wagon to find scum... they just say "watch out for people who just rode this wagon". That'd be 8 people if the wagon goes to lim. Not exactly a useful statement. In context, as a last post they're making before they won't be available for a while (and where they think they could be limmed while gone) it feels even scummier; I think natural town inclinations in that situation would be things like a final reads list or a couple specific scumreads, or even something vindictive directed at people on the wagon. But a general "this wagon on me is sus" is utterly useless to the town in the event that hem is limmed.

The closest they got to calling out specific people on the wagon was here. They called out Aristeia for a while but even got shaky on that. I think what speaks volumes on their alignment is what's absent in their ISO, rather than what's present. 122 posts and as far as I can tell they have given exactly two actual reads: a now-retracted scumread on Aristeia that is the focus of roughly half their ISO, and an "I'll die by this read" townread on Mathblade. For most of the game they've been the second-most active player and yet they've left not a trace to tie themself to any other player. This is the brunt of what I mean by asethetic rather than substantive: while they are engaging with the game, they are not making any claims, reaching any conclusions, or, to borrow from MathBlade, creating any hypotheses.

Could be scum but cp, where are his buddies defending him or do you think he’s possibly being bussed? Basically if HEM is scum, it would appear that his buddies are fine with his lim, unless you think it’s Math because I don’t think anyone else is trying to derail that wagon.

That may mean absolutely nothing though. It’s possible he’s scum and buddies are quiet but unless he and Math are SvS, if HEM is scum here, his buddies if not Math (and I don’t think Math would hard defend a buddy like that) are remaining quiet.

So what are your thoughts on that?

Of course, anyone pushing a cw counterwagon could possibly be a potential buddy if HEM is scum but it’s also possible Math could be right. I don’t have any srs yet. I briefly thought Math but I currently lean not. \_0_/

[Ausuka]

Damn that's the first time I've ever been scumread for being bad at maths

huh?

I was referring to Math scumreading me for being nice regarding the whole maths conversation. I don't know Math's meta, but I would like a response to my question about like, how has that worked as a scumtell for him historically? because it didn't come off like a real read. I was similarly confused by the push on implo for not tunneling. I think Math is fairly towny otherwise, I like his push on dwlee obviously

[Harley Quinn]

The other weird quirk of this game that I do want to make mention of is this weird conflation of Dwlee and Roden by some people, partially including me. I think I've done this because in my mind they're both "not in the thick of things", though in slightly different ways. It feels like neither has been involved in any major arguments, or been the major person pushing any perspective, etc. I think this weird coupling will become naturally decoupled as they each take more committal stances and have prolonged direct interactions with other individual people, because those are the things I feel are lacking.

The issue with this setup is the open draft. While I wouldn’t give anyone a pass for pretty much doing nothing, that’s also something to factor in as well, especially on d1.

[Harley Quinn]

I think that whatever HEM is, not giving reads isn’t great and people who are more focussed on giving trs are more likely to be town here than absolutely anything else.

[Bellaphant]

Ok, that's interesting that a lot of the thrust of implo's hem case sort of mirrors by thoughts: they've used a lot of words/posts but not actually commited to much in terms of reads/progression. I initially thought the convo between hem and Ari looked better for hen because I disagreed with Ari's number work but since then, Ari has moved on to actual content.

Is there a more recent vc?

Also, someone mentioned my elim pool being bad, which it is, but also implies that all the slots I mentioned had 'pressure' on them, which I don't think is massively true. I also quite strongly don't want to eliminate some of the more 'pressured' slots, like math, or implo.

I am reassured math has me in their scum pool, plus de change, but worried I'm getting a pass from Titus.

[Bellaphant]

Ok, that's interesting that a lot of the thrust of implo's hem case sort of mirrors by thoughts: they've used a lot of words/posts but not actually commited to much in terms of reads/progression. I initially thought the convo between hem and Ari looked better for hen because I disagreed with Ari's number work but since then, Ari has moved on to actual content.

Is there a more recent vc?

Also, someone mentioned my elim pool being bad, which it is, but also implies that all the slots I mentioned had 'pressure' on them, which I don't think is massively true. I also quite strongly don't want to eliminate some of the more 'pressured' slots, like math, or implo.

I am reassured math has me in their scum pool, plus de change, but worried I'm getting a pass from Titus.

[Datisi]

Replacing Malakittens.

[Enchant]

Lurking for purpose is pretty boring.

[Harley Quinn]

Lurking for purpose is pretty boring.

What does that even mean? I lurk if I don’t have anything worthwhile to contribute. If I have a purpose, I will likely say something.

[Gamma Emerald]

you accused std of scumreading you because you smoked him too many times as scum

the subtext is that he's town.

I don't think math addressed this yet, I'd like if he would

I did? Or if I follow I don’t know what you’re asking so can’t address it?

I think it’s SOP for StD?

why do you not think StD could be using you as a scapegoat or smth?

smth?

It means “something”

[Titus]

Titus is there any particular reason you've created this weird dichotomy between me and Dwlee? I don't see any particular reason why you would think there's one scum between the two of us. And sorry but it's major stretch to say Dwlee has had an "impact" or that they've tried to, this just feels like typical Day 1 effort Dwlee.

The vibe you're giving off is that since you think one of us is scum that we should be in opposition to each other, but I don't have any particular interest in proving myself to be townier than them. I have zero interest in pursuing them at all today as they're usually a slow burn read for me nowadays. If Dwlee has anything to pursue me on they'll do it of their own accord, not because you trying to nudge us into a fight.

This is absolutely not my position.

My position is that you're not S v S.
I feel that you're scummy and therefore Dwlee is town.

I could still be wrong on you, hence why my vote isn't on you.

[Titus]

Roden still has no drive to solve. HEM should be the lim.

this feels patently false

Roden just appeared and his only posting was a misrep so far.

[Titus]

Could be scum but cp, where are his buddies defending him or do you think he’s possibly being bussed? Basically if HEM is scum, it would appear that his buddies are fine with his lim, unless you think it’s Math because I don’t think anyone else is trying to derail that wagon.

That may mean absolutely nothing though. It’s possible he’s scum and buddies are quiet but unless he and Math are SvS, if HEM is scum here, his buddies if not Math (and I don’t think Math would hard defend a buddy like that) are remaining quiet.

So what are your thoughts on that?

Of course, anyone pushing a cw counterwagon could possibly be a potential buddy if HEM is scum but it’s also possible Math could be right. I don’t have any srs yet. I briefly thought Math but I currently lean not. \_0_/

Aside from possibly Implo, I think it's more refusal to get on than a bus.

[Titus]

*defense

[Titus]

I am reassured math has me in their scum pool, plus de change, but worried I'm getting a pass from Titus.

Fair.

[Titus]

Lurking for purpose is pretty boring.

What does that even mean? I lurk if I don’t have anything worthwhile to contribute. If I have a purpose, I will likely say something.

Enchant's claiming to lurk to avoid being shot.

[MathBlade]

Damn that's the first time I've ever been scumread for being bad at maths

huh?

I was referring to Math scumreading me for being nice regarding the whole maths conversation. I don't know Math's meta, but I would like a response to my question about like, how has that worked as a scumtell for him historically? because it didn't come off like a real read. I was similarly confused by the push on implo for not tunneling. I think Math is fairly towny otherwise, I like his push on dwlee obviously

I already responded to that.

[MathBlade]

Damn that's the first time I've ever been scumread for being bad at maths

huh?

I was pissed in general and Ausuka being nice about maths felt out of place tonally so she seemed sus.

Here it is.

Like are people just legit not reading my posts?

[Bellaphant]

Lurking for purpose is pretty boring.

What does that even mean? I lurk if I don’t have anything worthwhile to contribute. If I have a purpose, I will likely say something.

Enchant's claiming to lurk to avoid being shot.

Hang on, so enchant is lurking to not draw nk attention, even though with their picks they will.... automatically draw nk attention??

So basically an excuse to do sweet fanny Adams?

O.o now I understand the policy thing.

[Titus]

If we policy Enchant, it should be d2 or d3 as I'd like to get something useful from D1. It might be too late after d3 if Enchant picked a scummy role.